11 Feb '13: Pakistan conducts test fires of two Hatf-IX Nasr BRBMs

[Armstrong]

Ada Rama! Rama.... For Pakistani nukes... India developed Cold Start... For Indian cold start... Pakistan developed Nasr... Cold start means India should amass troops and do quick trust! In matter of hours!

This goes in vicious circles! So if Indian penetrates with great speed... Then Nasr is worthless... If India cannot penetrate with speed then cold start is worthless!

Yup thats why it ain't gonna happen...there is going to be no Cold Start & no Nasr being fired on anything ! Its going to be proxy wars, information wars & economic leveraging which suits India exponentially more so than it does Pakistan; maybe our high command would sober up to the importance of public relations & perceptions management !
@Hyperion : Can't we pull off a CBU-97 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBU-97) like thing from a newer version of the Al-Nasr ? Perhaps a somewhat watered down version of the same ?

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

After reading the comments of Indian posters, i am only shocked at the depth of their knowledge regarding defence issues. Posters with 10,000 or so posts, giving away meaningless and misleading views. If you have nothing substantial to say, why the hell wasting your time and others. Here are some points regarding NASR.

1. Pakistan's first ballistic missile was Hatf-1, with a range of 60km, developed in late 80's. Hatf-1 place in overall Pak Army doctrine can be summed up by the fact that it was operational under artillery corps. Hatf-1 even not so accurate, at that time gave Pak army the capability, to strike large enemy targets like ammunition and fuel depots, command centers etc. deep within enemy territory out of the range of conventional artillery.
2. As the Pakistan ballistic missile program matured, new and more accurate missiles were developed. SRBM Hatf-2 Ghaznavi with a range of 150kms and more accuracy, replaced Hatf-1.
3. Pakistan has developed tactical nuclear weapons, quite a while ago. Even so, the 2nd round test of 30 May, 1998 was of a smaller nuclear device.
4. Pakistan has achieved nuclear capability in as early as 1984, but took quite some time to develop a miniaturized nuclear weapon, which could be carried by ballistic missile and even our fighter planes.
5. Now Pakistan has in its kitty, a diverse range of nuclear weapons (strategic and tactical). Similarly diverse delivery platforms ensure a credible nuclear deterrent.
6. Pakistan nuclear weapon program is purely a defensive program, the blame for bringing in nuclear weapons in South Asia is on India.
7. NASR is a battlefield deployed missile with excellent CEP, which can strike targets deep within enemy territory. It is just another extension of our artillery's capabilities. In other words, NASR is a new generation replacement of our old HATF SRBM system. It can carry a wide variety of war-heads including tactical nuclear weapons. It has shoot and scoot capabilty, which gives it a better survivability in battlefield. It can carry more missiles and with 4-tubes launch plateform, can fire at more targets within no time. Now what is the difficulty in assimilating this simple thing that it can? Who the hell has said that it will only carry tactical nuclear weapon? It has the capability and depending upon the situation, Pakistan has every right to use it as we like.
8. Regarding, cold start doctrine.. Even serious Indian defence analysts are skeptical over it. It has major flaws.
9. Why are Indians so sure that, Pakistan has no defence at all except resorting to nuclear attack on India??
10. It is beyond the scope of my post, but can Indians please just for one time give me a deployment plan for their armored corps on 2200km border along Pakistan. How much tanks and troops will you be able to deploy in Rajhistan at any given moment? What are your plans for countering Pakistani response in Jammu sector and Lahore-Kasur axis? How the hell would you move your entire army along Pakistan border and still maintain an element of surprise? I can go on and on but.........
11. Now, after my above point, if anyone still consider Pakistan a defenseless country, who will just watch Indian armored columns rolling in as they are parading in Delhi 26 January, then the gentleman seriously need a mental check-up.

 

[Hyperion]

Two completely unrelated things. Can we convert a Ferrari into a 16 wheeler, or vice versa? I'll leave the rest of guess work to you.

Can't we pull off a CBU-97 (CBU-97 Sensor Fuzed Weapon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) like thing from a newer version of the Al-Nasr ? Perhaps a somewhat watered down version of the same ?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Am I not making sense? oops.... I don't understand how can you use nukes in the same area where your troops are fighting from heaven to earth!


!

no my dear you dont
you are questioning its range like others
dont know why you decided that it will be used in the vicinity of our own troops.

the problem is something else

 

[ares]

But that isn't going to achieve anything ? Taking out known Pakistani Nuclear Sites doesn't factor in the Unknown Pakistani Nuclear sites, the Mobile Launchers, the Air-Launched Nukes, the Sea-Launched & the possible future sub-surface Launched Nukes ! Even if we're left with 5-10 nukes after your preemptive strike thats more than enough to kill tens of millions of Indians.

From Indian perceptive Pakistan remaining with ten nukes is a much better scenario than Pakistan remaining with 100 Nukes.
Pakistan launching 10 nukes is still better than it launching 50 nukes.
Now some these nuclear launches will directed against cities having missile defenses .. further lowering the casualties on Indian side.
Once that first nuclear shot fired..both countries will be fighting for their survival.

That is why I reiterate that Tactical Nukes & the mobility that they've provided including the mobility of our SRBMs & MRBMs platforms ensures that there is no large scale conflict between India & Pakistan.

At best we're looking at proxy wars being fought between the two (as some quarters suggest that is already true) at worst we're looking at a small border skirmish that would even pale in comparison to Kargil with a stand-off being somewhere in the middle !

Actually it does the opposite, by introducing a nuclear weapons on the battlefield you are ensuring even a small scale conflict turn into full scale nuclear war.For example in limited conflict like Kargil(which was incidentally initiated by Pakistan) ..had Pakistan used tactical nuclear weapon or Indian corp deployed in Kargil..do you think ..things would progressed as it did..India would not have given full scale nuclear response.

No one is going to mobilize entire corps & cross over into the other's territory because mutually assured destruction has just been devolved to the divisional level on both sides.

Armies exist to fight..wars happen, even in a nuclear overhang.

On the other hand, another way seeing the entire scenario can be.
By assuring than any nuclear strike(small or big) will see a massive Indian nuclear retaliation..India is assuring that neither side uses nuclear weapons, unless as a last resort.

 

[Armstrong]

Well people thought that Soviet Russia was invinvible and its nukes will keep it safe. What happened ? The broke into pieces. Their population decreased.

Now imagine if you use one Nuke, what will world do ? Iran, North Korea is a good example before you.

Buddy, things are much complicated. US invaded Iraq over So called WMD and no one came to rescue Saddam. And here I am talking about Tactical Nukes.

Propaganda against Pakistan is already increasing. All you have to do is consider various scenarios.

The non-linearity of events and Chaotic dynamics of Conflict situation is a special branch in Mathematical modeling. Read about it.

I only watched the Movie - Chaos Theory !

But dude who is going to be using the tactical nukes ? How is the Islamic Republic of Pakistan the same as the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics - We're not a Union of countries that can be broken apart...we're a country that is besought by a plethora of problems but no one is looking to secede from it, even the Baluch themselves; more autonomy is what every federating unit wants & they'd get it. Neither are we ideologically motivated to fight a war with the US to assert how Islam is right & everything; we're more into China...which means - Take your time, build yourself up & then assert should you wish to !

Neither are we Iran or NK in that we can & we do compromise on stuff....our timidity accrues this benefit !

Nor are we Iraq - They didn't have any Nukes...we do ! If our territorial integrity is threatened; our nukes may not reach Washington but they may hit the career group in the Arabian Sea & every US base in a 1000 mile radius ! But that is an eventuality thats never going to pass.

P.S @Hyperion : Can you please tell him that his Signature is backwards !

 

[Rocky25]

Yup thats why it ain't gonna happen...there is going to be no Cold Start & no Nasr being fired on anything ! Its going to be proxy wars, information wars & economic leveraging which suits India exponentially more so than it does Pakistan; maybe our high command would sober up to the importance of public relations & perceptions management !
@Hyperion : Can't we pull off a CBU-97 (CBU-97 Sensor Fuzed Weapon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) like thing from a newer version of the Al-Nasr ? Perhaps a somewhat watered down version of the same ?

For that there should be NO terrorists attacks on India from Pakistani Soil... Which opens another round of argument from where the terror emanates... If Pakistan sends terrorist... India should send the surgical teams into Pakistan to eliminate the terrorist camps!

Whether India with its surgical strike can hit the terrorist camps.... is a question yet to be answered with so many if's and but's

If India strikes a terrorist camp in Pakistan, Will Pakistan remain silent?

It call all be stopped... If Pakistan destroys all forms of terrorist! Which won't happen... So there wont be any peace!

 

[Safriz]

Nasr has 'canards' attatched to warhead assembly and for that reason its manoeverable upto the last moment.
That means it can perform manoevers to confuse ABM and also increase missile accuracy.

But why did they 'test' an already tested missile?
What new they did this time?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Nasr has 'canards' attatched to warhead assembly and for that reason its manoeverable upto the last moment.
That means it can perform manoevers to confuse ABM and also increase missile accuracy.

But why did they 'test' an already tested missile?
What new they did this time?

post 169 has the answer
checking how Indians will react to it.

 

[Rocky25]

After reading the comments of Indian posters, i am only shocked at the depth of their knowledge regarding defence issues. Posters with 10,000 or so posts, giving away meaningless and misleading views. If you have nothing substantial to say, why the hell wasting your time and others. Here are some points regarding NASR.

1. Pakistan's first ballistic missile was Hatf-1, with a range of 60km, developed in late 80's. Hatf-1 place in overall Pak Army doctrine can be summed up by the fact that it was operational under artillery corps. Hatf-1 even not so accurate, at that time gave Pak army the capability, to strike large enemy targets like ammunition and fuel depots, command centers etc. deep within enemy territory out of the range of conventional artillery.
2. As the Pakistan ballistic missile program matured, new and more accurate missiles were developed. SRBM Hatf-2 Ghaznavi with a range of 150kms and more accuracy, replaced Hatf-1.
3. Pakistan has developed tactical nuclear weapons, quite a while ago. Even so, the 2nd round test of 30 May, 1998 was of a smaller nuclear device.
4. Pakistan has achieved nuclear capability in as early as 1984, but took quite some time to develop a miniaturized nuclear weapon, which could be carried by ballistic missile and even our fighter planes.
5. Now Pakistan has in its kitty, a diverse range of nuclear weapons (strategic and tactical). Similarly diverse delivery platforms ensure a credible nuclear deterrent.
6. Pakistan nuclear weapon program is purely a defensive program, the blame for bringing in nuclear weapons in South Asia is on India.
7. NASR is a battlefield deployed missile with excellent CEP, which can strike targets deep within enemy territory. It is just another extension of our artillery's capabilities. In other words, NASR is a new generation replacement of our old HATF SRBM system. It can carry a wide variety of war-heads including tactical nuclear weapons. It has shoot and scoot capabilty, which gives it a better survivability in battlefield. It can carry more missiles and with 4-tubes launch plateform, can fire at more targets within no time. Now what is the difficulty in assimilating this simple thing that it can? Who the hell has said that it will only carry tactical nuclear weapon? It has the capability and depending upon the situation, Pakistan has every right to use it as we like.
8. Regarding, cold start doctrine.. Even serious Indian defence analysts are skeptical over it. It has major flaws.
9. Why are Indians so sure that, Pakistan has no defence at all except resorting to nuclear attack on India??
10. It is beyond the scope of my post, but can Indians please just for one time give me a deployment plan for their armored corps on 2200km border along Pakistan. How much tanks and troops will you be able to deploy in Rajhistan at any given moment? What are your plans for countering Pakistani response in Jammu sector and Lahore-Kasur axis? How the hell would you move your entire army along Pakistan border and still maintain an element of surprise? I can go on and on but.........
11. Now, after my above point, if anyone still consider Pakistan a defenseless country, who will just watch Indian armored columns rolling in as they are parading in Delhi 26 January, then the gentleman seriously need a mental check-up.

You wasted all the time... Pakistani nuclear weapon program is a stolen technology and All Pakistani missiles are NK and Chinese missiles pained in Green!

no my dear you dont
you are questioning its rage like others
dont know why you decided that it will be used in the vicinity of our own troops.

the problem is something else

Ah... boy it is you!

Don't know why you can think that there will NOT be Pakistani defensive corps who will be stopping Indian advancement for you to fire the Nasr... When Indian infantry progress will Pakistani infantry go back so that Nasr will be fired upon?

 

[Hyperion]

Eik gadhay nay sardar ko lat mari aur bhag gaya
Sardar uskay pechay bhaga
Rasty mein usko Zebra mila
Sardar Zebra ko lat mar kay bola:
Sala sweater pehan ke ullu banata hai


My joke carries more weight than your lame 'personal' point of view.

You wasted all the time... Pakistani nuclear weapon program is a stolen technology and All Pakistani missiles are NK and Chinese missiles pained in Green!

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

You wasted all the time... Pakistani nuclear weapon program is a stolen technology and All Pakistani missiles are NK and Chinese missiles pained in Green!

And your nuclear weapons were born in a maternity ward of Delhi hospital?
F**** off

 

[True pakistani 22]

Nasr Missile The Game changer

 

[KRAIT]

I studied Chaos Theory from one of the most eminent mathematicians out there, incidentally, he was also an Indian (Sikh). He used to be faculty chair @ University of Florida - Gainesville.

If he was from IIT, he might be student of my Prof.

University of Maryland is quite good in this research field. Indians work a lot in this field too.

Most of these war scenarios are simulated through various nonlinear equations and requires super computer to do so.

I can tell you an interesting research paper on Emotional Dynamics of Love explained by Nonlinear Equations and Butterfly effect. The author has used English literature for it.

 

[Armstrong]

From Indian perceptive Pakistan remaining with ten nukes is a much better scenario than Pakistan remaining with 100 Nukes.
Pakistan launching 10 nukes is still better than it launching 50 nukes.
Now some these nuclear launches will directed against cities having missile defenses .. further lowering the casualties on Indian side.
Once that first nuclear shot fired..both countries will be fighting for their survival.

On the contrary that achieves nothing because even a single nuke is one too many ! No Indian preemptive strike can hope to lessen Pakistan's nuclear capability to even an acceptably lower level whereby an acceptable number of casualties could be achieved.

Actually it does the opposite, by introducing a nuclear weapons on the battlefield you are ensuring even a small scale conflict turn into full scale nuclear war.For example in limited conflict like Kargil(which was incidentally initiated by Pakistan) ..had Pakistan used tactical nuclear weapon or Indian corp deployed in Kargil..do you think ..things would progressed as it did..India would not have given full scale nuclear response.

I never said that ! The presence of a tactical nuke ensures that a limited conflict isn't going to turn into an all out war ! The presence of tactical nukes which can target every single Indian FOB & can conversely target every single Pakistani FOB ensures that neither side crosses the International Border & risks retaliation from the other side. One could argue that the same Kargil episode, the '01 Stand-Off & the Mumbai Bombings are testament to that; India after all showed, what was euphemistically put as, 'measured restraint' !

Armies exist to fight..wars happen, even in a nuclear overhang.

On the other hand, another way seeing the entire scenario can be.
By assuring than any nuclear strike(small or big) will see a massive Indian nuclear retaliation..India is assuring that neither side uses nuclear weapons, unless as a last resort.

Agreed armies do exist to fight & that is why we & you both have one just so to cater for the possibility that the Tactical Nukes aren't enough to dissuade the other side from attacking.

As for the massive Indian Nuclear Retaliation - That is massively flawed because no amount of massive retaliation can dissuade Pakistan from retaliating in kind. That is why the Tactical Nukes will not be replied with a disproportionate response form the Indian side lest we return that in kind by taking out most Indian FOBs as well Nuclear Installations.