Pakistan is expected to order its JF-17 Block-III in 2017.

Thorough Pro said:

When the Block III is inducted, Presumably it will be first flown by the senior Block II pilots. For them it will not be like learning from scratch as you do with the new platform, rather a few new gadgets/capabilities with new weapons. To learning the operations of the new RADAR, one does not need to actually fly the plane with the RADAR in it, they can use simulators on the ground for the basic training, same for HMDS/HMCS and other EW stuff.

Once the new capabilities are known (which would be once the design is finalized/frozen) strategies and game plans can be done on the ground with paper and pen and then tried and tested when the Block III is available. Doing un-related things in parallel can save a lot of time.

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ziaulislam said:

did it took 10 years to master Rafael/ will it take 10 years for euro fighter new trench that hasnt came up?
did it took 10 years for each block of mirage 2000? or you are saying that USA mastered each block of f-16 over 10 years(60 years in total)
man the whole life of an aircraft is 25-30 years, if one block takes 5-10 years to master , technically you will be retiring an aircraft before you even get close to master it

shouldn't take more than 5 years to get most of the work settled for any particular aircraft

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Hi,

Thank you both for your posts---. As you young men might have noticed---that the current blk's of JF17's have not been fully integrated yet---even after 10 years.

The F22---it production line has shut down----but this aircraft is still not fully integrated---still waiting for the 9X to be functional---.

A decade is nothing for these 5th gen aircraft---more like 15 years---.

For the 4 and 4.5 gen aircraft---8-15 years full integration is nothing new---.

I am going to hit 60 in the next few days---maybe in the next 5 years---I won't be alive---you will be---. If the BLK3 makes it happen---just look upwards and laugh at the skies---but if does not---then wave in acknowledgement towards the skies---.

5---8 years is nothing---you are going to have totally new sesors and EW suite and many a new weapons as well---maybe a new power plant---.

Listen---it was the same thing 10 years ago---when I stated that it would take 8-10 years---and same answers---.

You guys don't get it---I will be extremely happy if I am proved wrong---I will be ecstatic that my air force has made the nation strong sooner than expected---.

But remember---10 years ago---I had the same answers---" they will train on the simulators "---.

imadul said:

AESA, which will need more power so more powerful engine and cooling.

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What makes you think AESA needs more power than a non-AESA radars

MastanKhan said:

I am going to hit 60 in the next few days-

Click to expand...

Sir,
Life and death are predestined but still if you keep yourself in good health, would be around another 20-30 years to see J-31 and it successor making in PAF fleet..

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:

Depends.

There is no inherent need to source the AESA and HMD/S from the same supplier. Actually, it is the AESA radar and EW/ECM that should come from the same source, which will allow for sensor fusion between the AESA radar and the AESA TRMs (hopefully) on the EW/ECM.

The only HMD/S and HOBS pairings available are the Python 5/Targo, AIM-9X/JHMCS, and Striker II/ASRAAM. There's the Chinese PL-10 and South African A-Darter, but neither have a default HMD/S available on the market. Even the HMD/S shown by AVIC during Air Show China was not an actual product, but a conceptual demo. In all likelihood, the PAF will source the HMD/S and HOBS separately, unless of course China has a solution in the wings ready for release.

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Thanks! I have been grappling with a few disparate pieces of information in my mind. If you could help me analyzing them, it would be great.

1. We know Turkey is selling us ASELPOD. Definitely this can and will be placed on Block III. Question: Would its output be limited to HUD or max benefit would come from displaying on the HMD/S itself?

2. The result of sensor fusion should still be displayed somewhere on a screen to increase the pilot's threat perception. It would be ideal to integrate that with the HMD/S as well.

In general, although the HMD and HOBS could be a separate purchase, their max benefits will only be realized through integration. Which is why, logically speaking, it feels slightly better to have everything sourced from same vendor. Of course, ideals are hard to achieve in the real world and any number of other factors come into play in making the final decision.

MastanKhan said:

Hi,

Thank you both for your posts---. As you young men might have noticed---that the current blk's of JF17's have not been fully integrated yet---even after 10 years.

The F22---it production line has shut down----but this aircraft is still not fully integrated---still waiting for the 9X to be functional---.

A decade is nothing for these 5th gen aircraft---more like 15 years---.

For the 4 and 4.5 gen aircraft---8-15 years full integration is nothing new---.

I am going to hit 60 in the next few days---maybe in the next 5 years---I won't be alive---you will be---. If the BLK3 makes it happen---just look upwards and laugh at the skies---but if does not---then wave in acknowledgement towards the skies---.

5---8 years is nothing---you are going to have totally new sesors and EW suite and many a new weapons as well---maybe a new power plant---.

Listen---it was the same thing 10 years ago---when I stated that it would take 8-10 years---and same answers---.

You guys don't get it---I will be extremely happy if I am proved wrong---I will be ecstatic that my air force has made the nation strong sooner than expected---.

But remember---10 years ago---I had the same answers---" they will train on the simulators "---.

Click to expand...

Currently 60 is like 40 of yester years....

CriticalThought said:

Thanks! I have been grappling with a few disparate pieces of information in my mind. If you could help me analyzing them, it would be great.

1. We know Turkey is selling us ASELPOD. Definitely this can and will be placed on Block III. Question: Would its output be limited to HUD or max benefit would come from displaying on the HMD/S itself?

2. The result of sensor fusion should still be displayed somewhere on a screen to increase the pilot's threat perception. It would be ideal to integrate that with the HMD/S as well.

In general, although the HMD and HOBS could be a separate purchase, their max benefits will only be realized through integration. Which is why, logically speaking, it feels slightly better to have everything sourced from same vendor. Of course, ideals are hard to achieve in the real world and any number of other factors come into play in making the final decision.

Click to expand...

Turkey doesn't have a fighter-use HMD/S in the wings, though their cooperation with BAE Systems on the TFX might see a future variant of the Striker. However, that's way out, well beyond the JF-17 Block-III. I think the Thales TopOwl-F is probably the most attainable option considering it was designed for the export market and, despite the Rafale deal with India, Thales is a familiar supplier to the PAF. If not, then it'd be waiting for China or hoping for an unconventional avenue, e.g. Denel Dynamics re-selling the Elbit Targo HMD/S with the A-Darter.

Indeed, but the sensor fusion I was referring to was 'fusing' the AESA TRMs in the radar and the EW/ECM. Together, the fighter could have multiple sensor points offering detection and jamming.

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:

Can't say, we'll have to wait and see, but Alan Warnes did say (in the Rolling Thunder article) this:

Meanwhile a contract for 50 JF-17 Block-3s is expected to be signed in the first half of this year, which will ensure production does not halt when all the JF-17 Block-2 aircraft are completed. The most advanced version of the Thunder will include new avionics, better electronic warfare systems, increased payload and more sophisticated weapons.

http://asianmilitaryreview.com/2017/02/rolling-thunder-jf-17/​

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The number of hard points will most probably remain the same if the airframe size does not change but with a more powerful engine and use of lighter materials like composites and high grade alloys will result in increased the thrust to weight ratio, conversely, increased payload capacity so heavier weapons can be mounted on the hard points / lugs.

war&peace said:

What makes you think AESA needs more power than a non-AESA radars


Sir,
Life and death are predestined but still if you keep yourself in good health, would be around another 20-30 years to see J-31 and it successor making in PAF fleet..

Click to expand...

I am away from EE for over two decades now so my telecom and radar knowledge will be real pathetic but still if I could have access to AESA and PESA data sheets I may be able to calculate relative power req. and heat dissipation. May be some avionics expert can help. I think generally, having so many TR modules, several redundant PS, and resultant heat, all will require lots of power management. But please, correct me if I am wrong.


"In comparison with a conventional air cooled fighter radar, the AESA will be more reliable but will require more electrical power and more cooling, and typically can produce much higher transmit power if needed for greater target detection range performance (increasing transmitted power has the drawback of increasing the footprint over which a hostile ESM or RWR can detect the radar)".

Excerpt From an old pub:
Active Electronically Steered Arrays A Maturing Technology
by Dr Carlo Kopp, MIEEE, MAIAA, PEng First published in Australian Aviation June 2002

Firstly , some wonderful comments

Now for Mastan's comment about 60 figure , these days with a little walk and some workout one can extend their health figures to 80-90's quite easily.

Question about Radars vs Power

Now , some folks stated something about the radar requiring too much power etc well I think each crafts as a certain level of specification , which clearly identify what is the max output available and it is really not that hard for engineers to fit a system with in these specifications. We are not installing one of those gigantic ground radars that are massive like big as a building

The relative size of the old radar / vs new radar is generally about same size. I would not be suprised if it may be smaller as you know Technology is shrinking all items (Hardware / Chips etc)




Single Pilot vs 2 Pilots:
Having two pilots have some advantages , some assistance with certain duties split between the Pilot and the support pilot as there are many complex systems on the plane

Also in dogfight the second pilot helps with keeping an extra pair of eyes out , so it is not just a question about two seater planes being used just for training. While I will agree it is a great way to teach upcoming pilots as well.

But the 2 seater do have a valid purpose in air combat


Weapon's carrying capabilities of JF17 thunder:

• New engine will ensure , more power (Thrust) is available which will mean the plane can carry more weight.
  
• More weight means , more Missiles / weapons

I love it when folks put a NASA icon on power point

So every thing in term of Weapons carrying ability enhancement depends on the NEW ENGINE installed into JF17 Thunder

The more Thrust plane will have , more weight can be carried for Take off and that is what it is all about

Obviously the better the engine is the better performance the plane will give in air with the added weight of the extra (Missiles / bombs , weapons)

I am pretty sure the moment a new Engine is installed we will be able to carry 2-3 more goods on the jets

@Informed Members,

JF-17 Block-II was meant to be PAF's baseline standard, which means all of existing Block-I had to be be upgraded to block-II configurations. Has this been done already? Are we only operating Block-IIs or is the upgrade yet to happen?

MastanKhan said:

Sir,

That 2 engine config is called a J31---.

Click to expand...

Its good to read and we hope that J-31 will be our future plane but in some conditions(If we want to take advantage of surprise attack) we may required a Air superiority Fighter or strike fighter( I am not under estimating the ability of J-31 but some J-20s may required when India Inducts PAk-FA), like if India try to divert our waters in such case how PAF can help?

war&peace said:

It is so stupid of some members especially Indians and also some Pakistanis that they fail to recognise that fact that J-31 is a twin engine fighter in addition to being a stealthy fighter. Though a lot the details are not available yet but one thing is for sure that it will be superior to F-35 in thrust to weight ratio and thus will be able to carry a heavier payload than the F-35.
View attachment 374222

Click to expand...

what is thrust to weight ratio of F-35B ? and F-35A....meanwhile i calculated j31 v2 tw ratio as 1.09 which is aimed to reach 1.3 later on

MastanKhan said:

Hi,

Thank you both for your posts---. As you young men might have noticed---that the current blk's of JF17's have not been fully integrated yet---even after 10 years.

The F22---it production line has shut down----but this aircraft is still not fully integrated---still waiting for the 9X to be functional---.

A decade is nothing for these 5th gen aircraft---more like 15 years---.

For the 4 and 4.5 gen aircraft---8-15 years full integration is nothing new---.

I am going to hit 60 in the next few days---maybe in the next 5 years---I won't be alive---you will be---. If the BLK3 makes it happen---just look upwards and laugh at the skies---but if does not---then wave in acknowledgement towards the skies---.

5---8 years is nothing---you are going to have totally new sesors and EW suite and many a new weapons as well---maybe a new power plant---.

Listen---it was the same thing 10 years ago---when I stated that it would take 8-10 years---and same answers---.

You guys don't get it---I will be extremely happy if I am proved wrong---I will be ecstatic that my air force has made the nation strong sooner than expected---.

But remember---10 years ago---I had the same answers---" they will train on the simulators "---.

Click to expand...

May Allah give you long , healthy and happy life so that we get more to learn from u and also u get to see more birds in PAF

war&peace said:

The details are not available yet or at least IDK as of now. However F-35 can supercruise for only 150 km at a stretch and that too at M = 1.2 which doesn't meet the definition of LM's supercruise at M =1.6 or above

Click to expand...

Well with a DSI it is not going to cross M1.6, is it?

MastanKhan said:

I am going to hit 60 in the next few days---maybe in the next 5 years---I won't be alive---you will be---.

Click to expand...

May Allah give you a long healthy, fruitful life.

After all I can't screw everybody's happiness on this forum alone, need a wing man

It takes at least 4 years for new block’s test
So there may be another 50 block II orders

snow lake said:

Why should all block 3 two seaters.
It will reduce payload and be of no actual advantage. Dual sweaters primary role is training and fighter pilot conversion for smooth transition.

Click to expand...

Not at all mate!F-15Es, Rafales, F/A-18 F & Growler, M2000s and many more
all are used with a WSO to perform complex environment penetration strikes.
It is the job that writes the tactics depending on the weapon you have and AFs
with the best means that don't skimp have that tool in their arsenal as AzadPak
also explained a couple posts above.
In fact, in France, when the dual seaters are stretched thin, we use single seaters
Rafales for transformation and training because modern planes are easier to learn.
But you're right that they don't all need to be dual seaters.

war&peace said:

What makes you think AESA needs more power than a non-AESA radars

Click to expand...

The law of conservation of energy? They emit more power so they generate more
heat. Taking care of that heat requires power too for the new / additional cooling unit.
That's why when an engine gains in performance, we never get the full HP equivalent
in additional payload or speed, albeit by a small margin.

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:

More weight means , more Missiles / weapons

Click to expand...

Not necessarily! How about heavier weapons, buddy?
Gain power and hike MTOW by 500 units of weight then
change the 2 GBU-58 under your 2 meager hardpoints
with 2 GBU-12s and voilà, you've eaten your payload
gains without augmenting the number of carries.

graphican said:

JF-17 Block-II was meant to be PAF's baseline standard, which means all of existing Block-I had to be be upgraded to block-II configurations. Has this been done already? Are we only operating Block-IIs or is the upgrade yet to happen?

Click to expand...

No, the upgrade hasn't happened but it's no biggie because ...
as MastaKhan said, the books have leeway.
Let's recheck ghazi's OP about 50 B-III order coming soon :

ghazi52 said:

These are part of the initial allotment of 150 JF-17s the PAF committed to when it signed onto the program in 1999. Currently, the PAF has more than 70 JF-17s in service, with PAC crossing 30 JF-17 Block-IIs by 2017 and on-track to rolling out another 14 single-seat Block-IIs in 2017.

Three two-seater JF-17Bs will also be built, of which two will be assigned to the PAF. Alan Warnes learned that these JF-17Bs will be used in “testing and development” for accelerating weapons integration.

Air Marshal Arshad Malik, the Chairman of PAC, was also enthusiastic about the JF-17’s export prospects, noting that PAC’s production output could be increased to “cope with future exports.”

Currently, 3 and 16 JF-17s are on order by Nigeria and Myanmar, respectively. ... blah blah ...

Notes & Comments:

Based on the wording of the article, it appears that JF-17 Block-III production is scheduled to begin shortly after the conclusion of the PAF’s Block-II run.

Click to expand...

So, 70+ Thunders in service minus 50 B-I equals 20+ B-IIs to which one adds 14 cells for 17 the year.
So by year's end, PAF has 35+ block 2s and PAC has 15 more to deliver or about a year of work : 2018.

Then, in January 2019, PAC has to build 16 aircrafts for Myanmar ( a full year of prod. by present output ),
3 aircrafts for Nigeria and 3 dual-seaters for Pakistan before it can embark on Block III production which
requires some re-tooling on the line.

So barring a different / additional line taking slack off,
Block III JF-17s may well begin to roll out in mid 2020!

Which is fine as the definition isn't that far along with its
main systems undefined yet? 3 years is almost short ...

About which, MastaK my friend stop the histrionics, please!
I'm 53 and my 40YO coworkers and 18YO son can't keep up!
As others that like you pointed out, 60 is almost low mileage.
Get a grip, grab the accolades from feigning senility and I'll
talk to you here in 5 years!

Great day all, Tay.

MastanKhan said:

Hi,

Thank you both for your posts---. As you young men might have noticed---that the current blk's of JF17's have not been fully integrated yet---even after 10 years.

The F22---it production line has shut down----but this aircraft is still not fully integrated---still waiting for the 9X to be functional---.

A decade is nothing for these 5th gen aircraft---more like 15 years---.

For the 4 and 4.5 gen aircraft---8-15 years full integration is nothing new---.

I am going to hit 60 in the next few days---maybe in the next 5 years---I won't be alive---you will be---. If the BLK3 makes it happen---just look upwards and laugh at the skies---but if does not---then wave in acknowledgement towards the skies---.

5---8 years is nothing---you are going to have totally new sesors and EW suite and many a new weapons as well---maybe a new power plant---.

Listen---it was the same thing 10 years ago---when I stated that it would take 8-10 years---and same answers---.

You guys don't get it---I will be extremely happy if I am proved wrong---I will be ecstatic that my air force has made the nation strong sooner than expected---.

But remember---10 years ago---I had the same answers---" they will train on the simulators "---.

Click to expand...

May Allah give you long, Healthy and prosperous life.