How about China swaps its Type 055 for Russia's Yasen class SSN?

[ChineseTiger1986]

The project 885 really has unique design and technology that even surpass the Seawolf class, so China could absorb it and incorporate into its future improved version of the Type 095 SSN.

As for Russia, China could offer the complete TOT of the Type 055, so Russia could fully focus to develop on its nuclear subs.

The Russian Navy now really needs the new large surface vessels to replace the Kirov and Slava class cruisers, and I think the 15000 tons Type 055 is perfect for that role.

 

[SvenSvensonov]

On what basis, intelligence or information allows you to claim that the project 885 surpasses the Seawolf Class. How much do you know about each? I worked on systems while in the USN that are on the Seawolfs and I don't know every aspect of the design, who are you to make such claims? Just because something is newer does not mean it is better, and actually the Yasens aren't even new, they are an 80s (designed from 77 to 85) design that just wasn't finished until a few years ago due to budget problems. The Seawolfs are newer (designing started in 83 and finished in 88) and are being upgraded, the Virginias too. If you want to discuss subs I would be very willing to do so in a constructive manner and provide any information I can, but please don't make erroneous claims without providing supporting evidence.

As for the Russian surface fleet, they are too prideful to accept Chinese ships into their Navy, but the Type 055, when built, would be a major step above anything currently sailing under the Russian flag. The Chinese military could also help Russia modernize its naval air arm with more recent designs and advanced electronics to replace their Tu-142s and Il-38s. I see China is buying Russian military equipment, but until the Russians loss the ability to make military arms for themselves I don't see them buying Chinese military equipment... even if it's better.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

@senheiser and @vostok

What is your opinion about this win-win deal?

 

[SvenSvensonov]

@senheiser and @vostok

What is your opinion about this win-win deal?

It would be a win-win deal from my perspective, just not one that is likely to happen. China could greatly benefit from Russian sound dampening systems and techniques, the Russian surface fleet needs an upgrade and China could provide one in the swap.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

On what basis, intelligence or information allows you to claim that the project 885 surpasses the Seawolf Class. How much do you know about each? I worked on systems while in the USN that are on the Seawolfs and I don't know every aspect of the design, who are you to make such claims? Just because something is newer does not mean it is better, and actually the Yasens aren't even new, they are an 80s (designed from 77 to 85) design that just wasn't finished until a few years ago due to budget problems. The Seawolfs are newer (designing started in 83 and finished in 88) and are being upgraded, the Virginias too. If you want to discuss subs I would be very willing to do so in a constructive manner and provide any information I can, but please don't make erroneous claims without providing supporting evidence.

As for the Russian surface fleet, they are too prideful to accept Chinese ships into their Navy, but the Type 055, when built, would be a major step above anything currently sailing under the Russian flag. The Chinese military could also help Russia modernize its naval air arm with more recent designs and advanced electronics to replace their Tu-142s and Il-38s. I see China is buying Russian military equipment, but until the Russians loss the ability to make military arms for themselves I don't see them buying Chinese military equipment... even it is better.

I didn't say that the project 885 has surpassed the Seawolf class in every fields, but Russia always has some of its cool unique design, and you should know that.

And the pragmatism is the most important matter as Russia's top priority is reserved for the nuclear arsenal and its sub fleet, so its budget for the surface vessels is very limited.

The Type 055 will indeed give them a big boost for its surface fleet.

 

[SvenSvensonov]

I didn't say that the project 885 has surpassed the Seawolf class in every fields, but Russia always has some of its cool unique design, and you should know that.

And the pragmatism is the most important matter as Russia's top priority is reserved the nuclear arsenal and its sub fleet, so its budget for the surface vessels is very limited.

The Type 055 will indeed give them a big boost for its surface fleet.

Ok, thank's for the clarification. I'll concede that the Russians do a lot of good things, some better than us. I though you were talking about the design as a whole. My apologies for the misinterpretation and confrontation.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

It would be a win-win deal from my perspective, just not one that is likely to happen. China could greatly benefit from Russian sound dampening systems and techniques, the Russian surface fleet needs and upgrade and China could provide one in the swap.

China is mostly interested in the automation part of the Yasen class.

How they manage to reduce the number of the crew members to less than 100 for a 10000 tons nuclear sub, this is very interesting for us.

Ok, thank's for the clarification. I'll concede that the Russians do a lot of good things, some better than us. I though you were talking about the design as a whole. My apologies for the misinterpretation and confrontation.

I think some Russian military website has mentioned about that, they want the Chinese frigate/destroyer to equip with the Russian weapons. Although they were pointing the Type 054A, but I know they are in fact interesting in the large one like the Type 055 destroyer/cruiser, since Russians always have the habit to favor the large toy over the smaller one.

If they got the Type 055, they will have S-400/500 and their own version of the LACM.

 

[SvenSvensonov]

China is mostly interested in the automation part of the Yasen class.

How they manage to reduce the number of the crew members to less than 100 for a 10000 tons nuclear sub, this is very interesting for us.

With automation comes increased noise, though. Machinery is noisy and for each piece that's added more dampening systems will need to be put on the sub to counteract the increased noise. But reducing the crew would be a benefit as more people could be dedicated to other projects or eliminated from the military altogether to save money or allocate it elsewhere. Also China's subs still aren't quite up to par with the rest of the world from a noise perspective. They're quiet enough, but they could still use refinement that the Russians could provide. And for clarification, the systems I worked on were upgraded and more modern communications gear.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

With automation comes increased noise, though. Machinery is noisy and for each piece that's added more dampening systems will need to be put on the sub to counteract the increased noise. But reducing the crew would be a benefit as more people could be dedicated to other projects or eliminated from the military altogether to save money or allocate it elsewhere. Also China's subs still aren't quite up to par with the rest of the world from a noise perspective. They're quiet enough, but they could still use refinement that the Russians could provide. And for clarification, the systems I worked on were upgraded and more modern communications gear.

That's the main problem for us, we want to increase the automation, but meanwhile also to reduce the noise.

But our sub is overall not as bad as in the report of the western media.

And in the last 10 years, most of our budget was reserved for the 58 tons JL-2 SLBM, and now with the problems of the JL-2 being fully solved, we can have more budget to improve the quality of our boomers.

 

[SvenSvensonov]

That's the main problem for us, we want to increase the automation, but meanwhile also to reduce the noise.

But our sub is overall not as bad as in the report of the western media.

And in the last 10 years, most of our budget was reserved for the 58 tons JL-2 SLBM, and now with the problems of the JL-2 being fully solved, we can have more budget to improve the quality of our boomers.

No, they're not as noisy as world-wide media reports would suggest, but they are still noisy enough that we can keep tabs on them effectively. Also keep in mind that noise isn't the only spectrum for detecting a sub, just the one that is more talked about. I've seen the Type 95s compared to early Sierras from the Soviet Union, that isn't believable, but they aren't up to the level of modern western designs or Russian subs. The bad news; they aren't yet up to par. The good news; they are making process very quickly.

Other detection methods include thermal and electromagnetic radiation, tracking the movement of animals as they flee the path of a sub, noise detection, for diesel-electric subs hydrocarbon detection is an option, for a surfaced sub visual or radar detection, wake homing (depending on the propulsion system), noise is just the most commonly talked about method since information on it is more available than other forms of sub detection. There are a few others too, but being ex-Navy I take my commitment to not releasing details I shouldn't very seriously.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

No, they're not as noisy as world-wide media reports would suggest, but they are still noisy enough that we can keep tabs on them effectively. Also keep in mind that noise isn't the only spectrum for detecting a sub, just the one that is more talked about. I've seen the Type 95s compared to early Sierras from the Soviet Union, that isn't believable, but they aren't up to the level of modern western designs or Russian subs. The bad news, they aren't yet up to par. The good news they are making process very quickly.

The Type 095 is on the same generation with Seawolf/Virginia with many key capabilities/features such as the sailing silently at 20 knots and the pump jet propulsion.

Just like J-20 is on the same generation with F-22, but the main engine of J-20 (WS-10G) is still not on par with the F119 engine.

I think the automation design of the project 885 could give a big boost to China's future Type 095 variant, and making it on par with the SSNs of the same generation.

 

[SvenSvensonov]

The Type 095 is on the same generation with Seawolf/Virginia with many key capabilities/features such as the sailing silently at 20 knots and the pump jet propulsion.

Just like J-20 is on the same generation with F-22, but the main engine of J-20 (WS-10G) is still not on par with the F119 engine.

I think the automation design of the project 885 could give a big boost to China's future Type 095 variant, and making it on par with the SSNs of the same generation.

First, I want to say thank you for the constructive responses. All too often I have seen people on PDF resort to anger. Second, you have highlighted a common problem we face, and a problem that I see on PDF a lot. While two system may be from the same generation, that doesn't mean that they are comparable as its not when they were build that matters, but what they are like under the hood. China's H-6 and the US B-52 aren't new designs, but are still some of the best bombers around thanks to regular upgrades. The J-20, and I don't want to get into that discussion too much, is good but lacks the all aspect stealth of the F-22, but it does make improvements too. Improvements such as the missile launching system. The Type 095 is of the same generation, but who can say for certain whether it is or is not up to par with US subs. With grades that are not publicized, we don't publicize ours, it could even surpass our subs.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

First, I want to say thank you for the constructive responses. All too often I have seen people on PDF resort to anger. Second, you have highlighted a common problem we face, and a problem that I see on PDF a lot. While two system may be from the same generation, that doesn't mean that they are comparable as its not when they were build that matters, but what they are like under the hood. China's H-6 and the US B-52 aren't new designs, but are still some of the best bombers around thanks to regular upgrades. The J-20, and I don't want to get into that discussion too much, is good but lacks the all aspect stealth of the F-22, but it does make improvements too. Improvements such as the missile launching system. The Type 095 is of the same generation, but who can say for certain whether it is or is not up to par with US subs. With grades that are not publicized, we don;t publicize ours, it could even surpass our subs.

Being in the same generation doesn't mean they are on par in term of the capability.

Being in the same generation means that you can still fight your stronger opponent, but not in the same generation means like F-22 pitting against F-15, this would end up like a massacre, not even a fair fight for F-15.

Yeah, in term of the quality of boomer, China is still on the lower spectrum of the P5.

The Type 094 is about the same level as the Soviet Delta IV, which is a generation behind the Ohio class and the Borei class, but we are now starting with the Type 096.

The Type 095 is facing the competitors like Seawolf and the improved Virginia, which we definitely need to catch up.

 

[SvenSvensonov]

Being in the same generation doesn't mean they are on par in term of the capability.

Being in the same generation means that you can still fight your stronger opponent, but not in the same generation means like F-22 pitting against F-15, this would end up like a massacre, not even a fair fight for F-15.

Well, not necessarily. The MiG-17 and 19 weren't the same generation as the F-4, but they still managed to be an effective fighter against them. Older systems can be better than new ones if they are given attention and upgrades. The US KC-135 is many years older than I am and is still the best tanker around. Its replacement the KC-46 is having all kinds of problems. Just as the SU-27, or China's many variants aren't in the same generation as the F-22, with the right attention and upgrades they could make life very difficult for the US.

Also for clarification, generations do actually relate to capabilities shared common throughout aircraft of the same type. Yes, that doesn't mean they all will be the same in their capabilities, but they will share some qualities. For gen five aircraft we see contenders with near all-aspect stealth, internal weapons storage, electronic warfare capability, extended range and high cost. Similarly for modern sub designs we should see similar capabilities and systems for all subs from all nations, though there may be deviations from time to time such as one of the Seawolfs being 100 feet longer than the other two to accommodate sensitive systems.

The Type 095 is facing the competitors like Seawolf and the improved Virginia, which we definitely need to catch up.

There will be a total of around 30 Virginias from five different blocks, with each previous being upgraded over time, how many Type 095s are being planned? Or has the focus shifted to the Type 097s and its replacement?

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Well, not necessarily. The MiG-17 and 19 weren't the same generation as the F-4, but they still managed to be an effective fighter against them. Older systems can be better than new ones if they are given attention and upgrades. The US KC-135 is many years older than I am and is still the best tanker around. Its replacement the KC-46 is having all kinds of problems. Just as the SU-27, or China's many variants aren't in the same generation as the F-22, with the right attention and upgrades they could make life very difficult for the US.

Also for clarification, generations do actually relate to capabilities shared common throughout aircraft of the same type. Yes, that doesn't mean they all will be the same in their capabilities, but they will share some qualities. For gen five aircraft we see contenders with near all-aspect stealth, internal weapons storage, electronic warfare capability, extended range and high cost. Similarly for modern sub designs we should see similar capabilities and systems for all subs from all nations, though there may be deviations from time to time such as one of the Seawolfs being 100 feet longer than the other two to accommodate sensitive systems.



There will be a total of around 30 Virginias from five different blocks, with each previous being upgraded over time, how many Type 095s are being planned? Or has the focus shifted to the Type 097s and its replacement?

This was the fluke in the old time warfare, but the modern warfare is really strictly emphasized about the generation of the weaponry. Just like the US army in the 1970s fought so badly in Vietnam, but they managed to steamroll over the much more mechanized army (compared to the Vietcong army) of Saddam Hussein. The modern warfare is the game changer, a F-15 or Su-27 has much less chance against a F-22 than a Mig-17/19 against a F-4.

BTW, the Type 093 should be around 6 boats, so the Type 095 should be anywhere around 6-12 being planned. The Type 097 is under the development, which is the routine as the next generation weaponry is already under the development as the current new generation is coming out of water.