US warplan against China : Choke China into submission via naval blockade

[UKBengali]

I think i know about what you are talking about (City and its connections ?). Businessmen/politics are bastards everywhere. Still they managed to get the UK out of recession this year.
Also, you need to go and have a look into that thread that showcased a study on where it is best for a child to be born nowadays.

LOL.

You really are clueless aren't you?

It is worse that that, much worse. UK has literally decided to commit economic suicide with the way pretty much any company is managed in the UK.

Enjoy living in delusion and if you live another 15-20 years then you will see what I mean.

 

[anon45]

You provide no evidence or logical reasoning as to why the Abram's is superior to the latest Chinese Type-99 apart from that "US technology is superior".

China could have purchased T-90 tanks from Russia in the 1990s but chose not to. Only logical reason is that they were pretty happy with their own technology. Whether the Abrams may be slightly superior to the Chinese tank is irrelevant as they both pretty much have the ability to take each other out with one hit IMO.

Unproven and doubtful. Short answer is neither of us will prove one has a better design and specs than the other because neither has faced the other in combat. It also matters a great deal the crews that man them, and the logistics that support them.

As for logical reasoning, the Abrams has a reputation for very tough frontal armor. The Abrams is battle tested, the US has a reputation for having advanced military tech that tends to prioritize the safety of the crew, and China does not, as well as the reason Audio mentioned.

It is always possible that China is hiding a surprise, but until it is proven or perceptions change the default expectation for the layman is that the Abrams is the better tank.

Yes, they will. China has thousands of ballistic and cruise missiles that would severely the Japanese military and industrial facilities without their airforce even getting involved.

You place too much faith in a single system and overestimate the damage that can be inflicted. Missiles are not god weapons, its why we still have planes and bombers. Missiles have the potential (but not the guarantee) of taking industrial and military facilities temporarily or partially out of operation, but they cannot keep them out of operation, else China would also be severely crippled by the inevitable retaliatory response.

And even the US carriers will have to stay further out from the Chinese coast(several hundred kms) as they would not be wishing to face hundreds of J-20s and J-31s that could operate from Chinese land bases, not to mention the DF-21D ASBM.

First off the actual effectiveness of the DF-21D is still in question, as it has never been tested in its intended environment. Second, this doesn't prevent US subs from wreaking havoc on any invading Chinese force. Third, this doesn't prevent US stealth Jets and unmanned drones from operating out of other bases in the region including the carriers themselves. Fourth, If China doesn't know where the Carriers are it can't fire at them now can it? Fifth, you'd be amazed at the damage a carrier can take and still stay operational. Seventh, why would the US avoid facing the J-20 and J-31 to its own detriment? Of course the USN would face and at least attempt to destroy them in order to accomplish its own objectives, that is their goal and their mission.

Basically Japan would then be the theatre where the Chinese and US fight it out and it would be devastated as you can be sure if the Japanese ask the US for help then China would take revenge on them in a devastating way.

I'd expect the theatre would expand to be the entire maritime area between Japan and China, up to and including the coasts of both Japan and China.

Why you believe the US won't attack the Chinese mainland when China is doing the same to Japan is beyond me. It is well within the US' capability to damage and temporarily shut down facilities in China, with special focus on Chinese ports.

You have previously stated that China's goal would be to invade Japan, and have not provided any evidence that China could do so. Considering that China would be facing a contested battlespace in its best case scenario, it sounds positively ludicrous given the size and population of Japan. China would need secure supply lines, and it wouldn't have it.

Yes they will. Time is on China's side.

No it isn't, any USN Carriers that have not already been in the area will reach the area before China can successfully invade Japan, It is literally impossible for China to successfully invade Japan under these circumstances. All you will get is a slaughterhouse.

I havn't even talked about the massive build up of men and resources that would be required for A major naval battle, let alone an invasion force. Then there is global sanctions and opinion.

India will never be any kind of match for China in our lifetime, if ever.

Words full of hubris, pride goes before a fall.

A coalition of smaller states against a country like China, which most experts predict to overtake US in GDP by the latter part of this decade, just won't work in practice. They will all learn to accept Chinese dominance over east Asia, and maybe rest of Asia later on. Even Japan would have to submit to the inevitable, let alone countries like South Korea and Taiwan -

You have not given any reason why. What benefit is there aside from 'we won't beat your head in', instead we will take your territory and regulate your commerce?

The main problem is you don't respect the other countries in Asia, i'm talking about you specifically.

You have a hard-on for China and believe they are god-men of impeccable intelligence while the rest are sniveling cowards.

Your first expectation for these countries is to fold as soon as China surpasses an economic indicator, or reaches a certain level of military capability. I don't know why you have such scorn for those countries, but they will inevitably surprise people like you with their tenacity if China only offers them total servitude.

btw Taiwan is just a province of China and not a real country.

Reality vs your opinion... Reality wins. For all intents and purposes it is a seperate country.

Let the US spend trillions on building a Navy to retain "dominance" when the best thing to do is for the US to accept the inevitable and retreat to the continental US and spend the saved money on their civilian economy rather than this soon to be useless expeditionary military.

blathering rhetoric that essentially posits nothing.

Unlike Europe, which is pretty much finished, the US has a future but it does not seem to be playing it's cards right. It is up to you but interfering in Asia won't turn out well for you in the end

You have still not offered any reasoning aside from brute force.

 

[kalu_miah]

Interesting debate going in this thread.

China's rise is inevitable. It can be slowed down and a truly multi-polar world can be achieved eventually, but for that to happen, the US led West has to change its current foreign policy and trading paradigm. A fake so called "pivot to Asia" is not going to cut it. The biggest culprit is the "free trade" paradigm.

Every sane individual wants to see a stable, peaceful, more just and sustainable future for the world. It is not going to happen unless people, specially in the US and West, wake up and realize which way the world is going. Unstable bully countries, rising suddenly and threatening their neighborhood and the world in general, whether that is China or India, is not good for humanity. This is happening because of the unbridled "free trade" paradigm, where geo-strategy and geo-politics is not sufficiently tied with trade and commercial decision making. This gives the large countries advantages that smaller countries cannot match.

The way things are going, I will side with the opinion of my fellow Bangladeshi, UKBengali. China is winning and moving towards ultimate domination and victory, while the US led West is sleep-walking towards a precipice. Sorry to say this anon45. The reasons are:

- China has 4 times the population size of the US, so eventually Chinese economy will become at least 2-3 times or more of the US
- China is sitting on east+center of Eurasian land mass, it can simply build, and has been building road, pipeline and short shipping routes to rest of Asian land mass, USA is sitting in another continent and land mass, aircraft carriers can only do so much
- 92% of Chinese population belong to Han ethnic majority, a homogeneous bloc, after demise of communism Han nationalism will unite and prevent any breakup
- US led West is not doing anything to counter China's rise, rather helping it happen
- some studies claim that East Asians have higher IQ than the rest of the world:
Race Differences in Intelligence (book) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for Audio's comment about sending us "immigrants" back to the "shitholes", just because he voiced his opinion, you should be ashamed of the comment you made. What part of EU are you from originally, if I may ask? I am afraid you are tarnishing EU image.

I would argue that the main reason US led west are failing to understand which way the world is going, is because of lower average IQ as pointed out in the above map and as demonstrated by outbursts from people like Audio, added with the fact that 500 years of world domination have given the people of the west some enduring myths, like the racial supremacy theories, specially for the "white" race.

For more details, you can always visit my now closed thread:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/164048-kalu_miahs-new-world-order-road-map-future.html

 

[JSCh]

So the plan is to stationed a force on a string of small islands(first island chain) with virtually no strategic depth and conduct a war of attrition to contest for the dominance of the seas in between against a continental size militarily power. And presumably U.S would be able to sustain this level of blockade for a sufficiently long period until China capitulate "because it would cost China more to defeat this strategy than it would cost the United States and its allies to execute it."
Wah, that would be the biggest siege warfare that the world had ever seen.
Execute it like the Iraq war and you can expect the same outcome, you do not even need a no fly zone or ground war, the Chinese are reasonable people, they would just surrender, just like the Yugoslav? (What would be the pretext for the world to agree to blockade a nuclear power and one-sixth of the world population? WMD?)
I wonder how long the genius that figure this out expect the war to last. And all the U.S allies would agree to have the main battle happen on their soil in this period? after all, the Saudi Arabian and Israelis just got only a few "duck for SCUD", no problemo?
What are these guy smoking?

 

[UKBengali]

Unproven and doubtful. Short answer is neither of us will prove one has a better design and specs than the other because neither has faced the other in combat. It also matters a great deal the crews that man them, and the logistics that support them.

As for logical reasoning, the Abrams has a reputation for very tough frontal armor. The Abrams is battle tested, the US has a reputation for having advanced military tech that tends to prioritize the safety of the crew, and China does not, as well as the reason Audio mentioned.

It is always possible that China is hiding a surprise, but until it is proven or perceptions change the default expectation for the layman is that the Abrams is the better tank.

Abrams is "battle-tested" against downgraded T-72s

US has not a fought a "peer" in tank warfare since WW2 so this experience does not count for much.

You cannot provide conclusive evidence that the Abrams is much superior than the latest Chinese tank so let's leave it at that.

You place too much faith in a single system and overestimate the damage that can be inflicted. Missiles are not god weapons, its why we still have planes and bombers. Missiles have the potential (but not the guarantee) of taking industrial and military facilities temporarily or partially out of operation, but they cannot keep them out of operation, else China would also be severely crippled by the inevitable retaliatory response.

Yes they can, if you have enough of them and China would have more than any other country in the world. Japan is a small, extremely target rich country which would be perfect for China to demonstrate missile warfare. Japan would run out of air-defence missiles way before China had even used up half it's stockpile - that is if the Chinese are not able to take out the Japanese radars first.

Anyway there are rumours that a stealth bomber like the B-2 is currently in the works and this should be ready for action towards the latter part of this decade. I am sure that this "rumour" will turn out to be true like the J-20/J-31 also were

First off the actual effectiveness of the DF-21D is still in question, as it has never been tested in its intended environment. Second, this doesn't prevent US subs from wreaking havoc on any invading Chinese force. Third, this doesn't prevent US stealth Jets and unmanned drones from operating out of other bases in the region including the carriers themselves. Fourth, If China doesn't know where the Carriers are it can't fire at them now can it? Fifth, you'd be amazed at the damage a carrier can take and still stay operational. Seventh, why would the US avoid facing the J-20 and J-31 to its own detriment? Of course the USN would face and at least attempt to destroy them in order to accomplish its own objectives, that is their goal and their mission.

I'd expect the theatre would expand to be the entire maritime area between Japan and China, up to and including the coasts of both Japan and China.

Why you believe the US won't attack the Chinese mainland when China is doing the same to Japan is beyond me. It is well within the US' capability to damage and temporarily shut down facilities in China, with special focus on Chinese ports.

You have previously stated that China's goal would be to invade Japan, and have not provided any evidence that China could do so. Considering that China would be facing a contested battlespace in its best case scenario, it sounds positively ludicrous given the size and population of Japan. China would need secure supply lines, and it wouldn't have it.

First let's get this clear we are talking about 2020 onwards as China's Navy is currently weaker than the Japanese lol.

China will have 3 carriers to be dealt with - 2 of them are likely to be as large, with the complement as large and varied, like the US carriers and the other Varyag will still be decent with an air-wing of 24-30 fighters.

The point is that with the possibility of US carriers being sunk by DF-21D missiles, they will stay far out in the Ocean, massively reducing their effectiveness. The real goal of the DF-21D is not to sink the US carriers but to put the element of doubt that they can. And why do you persist with this, US will attack the Chinese mainland unless you would like to get into a shooting war with a country that by then would have hundreds of mirved-ICBMS on both land and sea?!

No it isn't, any USN Carriers that have not already been in the area will reach the area before China can successfully invade Japan, It is literally impossible for China to successfully invade Japan under these circumstances. All you will get is a slaughterhouse.

I havn't even talked about the massive build up of men and resources that would be required for A major naval battle, let alone an invasion force. Then there is global sanctions and opinion.

When I said "time is on China's side" I meant the passage of time as in decades, not in a war scenario

Simply China's economy will become industrialised by 2030 or so whereas the US already is. By 2030 China will be relatively far stronger to the US than it is now.

Your first expectation for these countries is to fold as soon as China surpasses an economic indicator, or reaches a certain level of military capability. I don't know why you have such scorn for those countries, but they will inevitably surprise people like you with their tenacity if China only offers them total servitude.

Who says China wants "total-servitude"?

China will want all Asian countries to unite for the benefit of Asians only and any that dare invite outsiders will pay the price - not just military but also economic sanctions from the country which is less than a decade away from being the world's richest.

Plenty of Asian countries will have no problem with "Asia for Asians" like Europeans believe in "Europe for Europeans"

 

[UKBengali]

So the plan is to stationed a force on a string of small islands(first island chain) with virtually no strategic depth and conduct a war of attrition to contest for the dominance of the seas in between against a continental size militarily power. And presumably U.S would be able to sustain this level of blockade for a sufficiently long period until China capitulate "because it would cost China more to defeat this strategy than it would cost the United States and its allies to execute it."
Wah, that would be the biggest siege warfare that the world had ever seen.
Execute it like the Iraq war and you can expect the same outcome, you do not even need a no fly zone or ground war, the Chinese are reasonable people, they would just surrender, just like the Yugoslav? (What would be the pretext for the world to agree to blockade a nuclear power and one-sixth of the world population? WMD?)
I wonder how long the genius that figure this out expect the war to last. And all the U.S allies would agree to have the main battle happen on their soil in this period? after all, the Saudi Arabian and Israelis just got only a few "duck for SCUD", no problemo?
What are these guy smoking?

It is called having a natural right to rule others just because you are white, did you not know that?

I cannot really speak for other European countries but the British are heading for irrelevance due to their own corruption and incompetence - Southern Europe is finished btw.

Get your own house in order and then talk about others!

 

[gambit]

Abrams is "battle-tested" against downgraded T-72s

US has not a fought a "peer" in tank warfare since WW2 so this experience does not count for much.

So what combat experience has the PLA tank divisions has besides civilians on foot?

You cannot provide conclusive evidence that the Abrams is much superior than the latest Chinese tank so let's leave it at that.

There can be no evidence in peace time. But in war, it is both man and machine that will make or break an army. Like it or not, the US Army have ten times the institutional knowledge of warfare than the PLA. And please do not bring up ancient history. Abrams and their crews will make mincemeat of the PLA in combat.

 

[UKBengali]

So what combat experience has the PLA tank divisions has besides civilians on foot?


There can be no evidence in peace time. But in war, it is both man and machine that will make or break an army. Like it or not, the US Army have ten times the institutional knowledge of warfare than the PLA. And please do not bring up ancient history. Abrams and their crews will make mincemeat of the PLA in combat.

If your logic was right then the US army would never have beaten the German one and the US Navy would never have beaten the Japanese Navy in WW2.

Let those who think "experience" is everything live in their fantasies.

 

[gambit]

If your logic was right then the US army would never have beaten the German one and the US Navy would never have beaten the Japanese Navy in WW2.

Let those who think "experience" is everything live in their fantasies.

Your knowledge of history is as sorry as your understanding of military affairs. In the beginning of WW II, the US military was qualitatively inferior to both the Nazis and Imperial Japan. The only thing that saved the US military was the enormous resources available, of which Isoroku Yamamoto warned about, and experience gained during the war itself.

Experience may not be everything, but show me a general who dismisses experience and I will show you a defeated army. Before it even march.

 

[Yeti]

These babies result in a Checkmate for China




Engineer jailed for selling US stealth bomber technology to China - Telegraph




Yep China is way ahead of US it does not need to steal US stealth technology

 

[UKBengali]

^^ Another Indian praising US technology.

Your knowledge of history is as sorry as your understanding of military affairs. In the beginning of WW II, the US military was qualitatively inferior to both the Nazis and Imperial Japan. The only thing that saved the US military was the enormous resources available, of which Isoroku Yamamoto warned about, and experience gained during the war itself.

Experience may not be everything, but show me a general who dismisses experience and I will show you a defeated army. Before it even march.

Sorry, I now defer to our resident sage here.

 

[Yeti]

Perhaps because US technology is far ahead of everyone else?

 

[Audio]

LOL.

You really are clueless aren't you?

It is worse that that, much worse. UK has literally decided to commit economic suicide with the way pretty much any company is managed in the UK.

Enjoy living in delusion and if you live another 15-20 years then you will see what I mean.

I'm pretty confident i'll still be around in 15-20 years, as im also pretty confident you will still be around UK somewhere in 15-20 years, doing whatever you do for a living.

All i know as a non UK resident about mismanagement are the flagships of said mismanagement: UK car industry and UK shipbuilding. For those i know it was meddled with by the government with results being almost complete disapearance of those industries in the UK.

As for Audio's comment about sending us "immigrants" back to the "shitholes", just because he voiced his opinion, you should be ashamed of the comment you made. What part of EU are you from originally, if I may ask? I am afraid you are tarnishing EU image.

/facepalm

Not ashamed of anything. Sometimes in order to fix things one should stop pretending that they are working. Now go ahead, start screaming racism.

I see you went also personal with the low IQ remark. Well, lets see what your own link has to say about the book it describes.

"The majority of the data points were based upon convenience rather than representative samples. Some points were not even based on residents of the country.

^^ And you wanna talk about IQ. You cant even bring a valid argument to the table.

 

[faithfulguy]

Perhaps because US technology is far ahead of everyone else?

US is clearly far ahead of everyone. And before China can compare itself to the US. It must have a distinct technological advantage over all other countries. Something it currently does not have.

 

[Protocol man]

So what combat experience has the PLA tank divisions has besides civilians on foot?


There can be no evidence in peace time. But in war, it is both man and machine that will make or break an army. Like it or not, the US Army have ten times the institutional knowledge of warfare than the PLA. And please do not bring up ancient history. Abrams and their crews will make mincemeat of the PLA in combat.

US hasn't proven jack against the PLA. US lost the only war it fought against the PLA. US is a capable military but only against rag tag militaries like Iraq and Afghanistan.
US has never defeated a powerful military, ever.
Until the US military can comprehensively beat either Russia or China, the US military will remain a mediocre military.
You can bomb Iraq all you want, you haven't proven jack against powerful opposition.

Indian slaves might massage your American ego, but dont expect any of us to do that sort of shameful a$$ licking. We are damn proud of making a mockery of the US military in Korea.

PLA proved the US is all hype in the Korean War. America was losing the war to Japan until you fluked a 'victory' by dropping a nuke. You did that because the Japanese were spanking your so called 'invincible' military.

These babies result in a Checkmate for China




Engineer jailed for selling US stealth bomber technology to China - Telegraph




Yep China is way ahead of US it does not need to steal US stealth technology

Meh, nothing special. That is unproven and just hype only clueless Indians will believe. I'm sure we are developing it too if we really want it and if its any use.