Options for PAF After India Selects Rafale for MMRCA

[beggingwalker]

India may not be able to decide alone, and will need to take into consideration many other important aspects before anything like that can be considered at all.

dont you think your western border will be next station of clash?

 

[Hobo1]

lad... higher costs ensure nothing.
Chinese aircraft come cheap without strings attached, I don't see how that is a drawback?

Yes, PAF doesn't have as much money as IAF and so we can't match you in terms of quantity, but PAF is more then capable of defending itself.

So according every body from Saudis,UAE, Indians, Brazilians are mad for going for costly European fighter.
If you think yr teens and JFT would be able to stand against Rafale and Latest gen Sukhoi 30
then I can only say Dil ko behlane ko ghalib ye kayal accha hai.

 

[VCheng]

Exactly, thats why I said "prevailing situation". But even then, no nukes unless Taliban rules in Pakistan.

Yes, that makes more sense. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Jungibaaz]

So according every body from Saudis,UAE, Indians, Brazilians are mad for going for costly European fighter.
If you think yr teens and JFT would be able to stand against Rafale and Latest gen Sukhoi 30
then I can only say Dil ko behlane ko ghalib ye kayal accha hai.

Hobo, I mean a higher price guarantees nothing.
And that PAF is capable of fighting off IAF without a doubt in my mind.

Please prove me wrong if you can. I know just how much you know and how much you think you know... I can tell you now that it aint enough.

But please do start, it's always good to bash noobs who punch above their weight.

 

[VCheng]

dont you think your western border will be next station of clash?

Not the border, but a low level endemic internal civil war-like situation is far more likely I fear.

 

[mkg00179504]

f-16s/j-10 against Mighty Su30mki+Rafale+Mig29+Mirage 2000

PAF would be sending lambs to the slaughter if they dare to cross border with these old toys. Moreover India is no longer interested in confronting Pakistan. Making Pak people aware of corrupt PAK armed forces is best cost effective way to cut PAF and PAK army to size.

Tell this to your babus and super mighty Indian military who didn't had the courage to carry out air strikes in Pakistan after Mumbai attacks where there were no F16 block 52,no AWACS,No refuelers, no BVR,no modern JF17 and J10B, no modern radars all old stuff.And still you were running to the US,Russia and other countries around the world for political support and even send US joint chief of staff chairman to Pakistan to make sure that PAF wont retaliate.Because your babus knew that PAF has the capabilities to take you a decade back.Now just image the destruction PAF will cause you with all these things and upgrades.Stop day dreaming, J10B will be a surprise for IAF.No body knows its true specs and one of the reason is that IAF was not decided with MMRCA.The guys sitting at Air headquarters are aware of every singe move that you make.Mark my words J10B will be a big surprise for IAF and a new headache they have to deal with.

 

[gubbi]

On Topic for Rafale:

General Palomeros: "The Rafale is the best aircraft in the world"

France Soir , Feb 1

EXCLUSIVE. By the time New Delhi has selected the Rafale, General Jean-Paul Palomeros, Chief of Staff of the Air Force, told France-Soir in what the French intervention in Libya has demonstrated the qualities of the aircraft to potential buyers.

F-S: Is Operation Harmattan, Libya - during which the Rafale was involved - has played a decisive role in this export success?

General Jean-Paul Palomeros: It is clear that the success of the Air Force and the Rafale during Harmattan were studied by every army in the world. My counterparts in other countries want to talk with me. They are surprised that we were able to send the Rafale as quickly to perform all types of missions. This was a demonstration of the versatility of the aircraft.

F.-S. Can you elaborate on these missions?

J. Gal-PP: We had to both impose a flight ban over Libya, help ground forces against Gaddafi who were at the gates of Benghazi and obtain information on enemy military plan. On March 19, 2011, from the first patrol, these three objectives were achieved. In addition to the imposition of the no flight zone, we used our arms of precision and fed our data for the following tasks. Thanxs to its warning and protective ground/air systems, the Rafale was able to intervene without destroying in advance all the Libyan anti-aircraft facilities, including missiles ramps which for us was the most worrying threat.

F.-S. You have been directly involved in negotiations to sell the Rafale with the Indian authorities. What was your role alongside engineers, commercial and political and French?

J. Gal-PP: I play my role as Chief of Staff. The partnership with the Indian army is old. For years, we do exercises with the Indian Air Force (IAF) which uses Mirage 2000 an aircraft very much appreciated in its ranks. My role is that this relationship is maintained at the highest level, by promoting the qualities of our equipements and those of the training of our pilots.

F.-S. And for the Rafale, specifically?

J. Gal-PP: to show the operational qualities of the aircraft, its benefits in terms of availability and maintenance. The availability of the fleet is the responsibility of the Chief of Staff. It was 95% during Operation Harmattan. In this area, France has set a high bar. To maintain a Rafale continuously, we need seven or eight mechanics. For some of our competitors is almost twice. The cost of maintenance of the aircraft is thereby reduced. It was one of the essential criteria incorporated into the design of the aircraft.

F.-S. What is this sale going to change for the Air Force?

Gal J.-PP The main interest for us is to work with the armed forces of friendly countries which have the same weapons systems than ours. The Indian Air Force will bring us an original feedback that will allow us to develop the capacity of the unit. That's what happened with the crews of Qatari Mirages that participated with us in operations in Libya. Finally,by increasing the numbers, it will reduce production costs and maintenance. Yesterday, one explained that the Rafale was very expensive. He has demonstrated today that he is probably the best aircraft in the world and in the end, it is not expensive.

Source

 

[TaimiKhan]

On the aerial side, make J-10s & F-16s as their frontline fighters with JF-17s giving them good support through latest tech. Also start thinking of getting the Chinese 5th Gen fighter, in the single engine category.

On the other side, invest in good net-centric capability and if possible and some solution out there, invest in anti-stealth capability with the Chinese.

 

[SQ8]

noone, even if borderline insane, is going to use them. Period.

A fairly dangerous assumption is it not?

 

[Bhim]

huh...........


@topic,

another mmrca will be issued with 80 fighters in 2 years.it will surely be f-35

Noo, I think it would be EF.. David Cameroon aint gonna let it go so easily.

 

[ziaulislam]

Rumours are there that China have agreed to give J-20 to pakistan. Any confirmation, if yes, kindly post the link.

i said PAFis not intersted in J20 yet
its only last year they had a MoU for developing stealth aircraft (which media took as stealth version of thunder) . we dont know what the aircraft is, through any source but rumors quote it a single jet stealth engine J-2x

 

[Storm Force]

TOO MANY PIE IN THE SKY SOLUTIONS being mentioned in this thread.

90% of them are unrealistic for PAF and their limited resources & options.

Expanding the F16 fleet is a DANGEROUS move considering they will sanction your fleet at a DROP OF THE HAT. This was the very reason IAF declined F35 F16 & F18... too much baggage & intrusions & USA limitations on our use....

j20 A 5TH gen fighter from china is a REAL PIE in the sky until 2025 ( BE REALISTIC) AT LEAST. the have one prototype flying today

Somebody mentioned 300 thunders by 2015. GET REAL FOLKS. Paf receved 36 thunders since 2009/ .. more importantly to combat high tech rafale you need a hi tech option.


French weapons ARE the preferred choice as we saw with PAF preferred thunder upgrade programme being RC400 & MICA BVR from france dassult programme recently. DID NOT GO ANYWHERE reason one of COST or indian pressure many suggested.
I think the technology level and high performance is very appreciated by pak top brass

Russia & israel id a NON starter

This leaves the ubber expensive TYPHOON from EADS at $100m each

OR BACK TO THE CHINEASE prehaps the only TRUSTED ally Pakistan have today

BUT HOW GOOD IS CHINEASE AEROSPACE wen compared to EADS OR DASSULT

Rafale will give india a WORLD CLASS TOT
new generation aesa radars
5th ew spectra suites
ramjet bvr missles like meteore ans long range stand off strike weapons like scalp
NO SANCTIONS
Guranteed spares even in war ..

FC20 nobody knows for real wat level this may be.

The design looks good ALBEIT only single engined...

HOW MANY FC20 WILL PAF NEED and when will they come at wat cost and wat weapons package..

 

[aanshu001]

I had taken few hours to read this entire tread from post one to 513 (it take time) what helps me a bottle o Vat 69 in a peaceful guest house ( Cormondal Heritage) just on the beach of Pondicherry, Not very expensive.

Well what I realized

1. Indian posters are calming that we can blow PAF.
2. Pakistani friends are saying they are good enough to teach lesson to IAF ( home grown plain , up-gradations, Chinese support & mighty trained pilot.)

Let see how modern warfare works ( In case of Air war)

1. Hardware ( Planes which includes radar, EW suit and other goodies)
2. Decoration ( missiles, bombs, jammers etc.)
3. Ground support ( Air fields, ground based radars, spares, support staff, war time coordination, etc, etc)
4. Pilot training ( Now question is how to train them, I think best think is war games is next to wars and then modern simulators and real fly hours).
5. AWACS and Set-lite
6. SAM system ( they are really nasty u know)
7. Refueler
8. Most important surprised fuel to run the war coz plane can not fly without them

well so it not all about planes so let get one point to another, if we check each points IAF had upper hand in all fields ( please free to disagree and help me to increase my knowledge).

And my dear friends when our a$$ is on fire no friends come to help. In 65 USSR has not helped us as we wont and in 71 China left u ------ u can understand what I am saying. So i u think any one is there to fight your war than u plz remember 71. Coz in 71 only USSR & Sri Lanka had supported us in UN but now is a different ball game

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Abu - WindJammer did not make any point. His point was what we call bookish logic . To the say the least "If Rafale is equal to 2 * JF 17 - then PAF will buy 2 JF17's for every Rafale that India buys" ..Sorry - it just doesnt work that away. I am pasting the reply to him. You can judge.

"WJ - one problem in that thought process . Taking your example above. Assuming price of 1 Rafale = Price of 4 JF17's.

IAF is/will spend $20B on this acquisition. Will PAF spend $20B to acquire 4*JF17 - to match up with Rafale numbers ? If PAF has that kind of money then why wont they end up selecting plane like gripen or EF itself ?

So even though logically your reasoning may work - but practically and in reality - it may not !!"

''bookish logic''? you come up with that yourself?


and no -- Pakistan doesnt need to spend ''$20b to acquire 4*JF17 - to match up with Rafale numbers''

its a defensive force with sufficient offensive-defence capability....has been and will be for the time to come.....its past track record against indian intruders is fairly extensive. And that despite embargos and much smaller size. One would think that india ought to have decimated our Air Force, but unfortunately for our enemy --they were never able to.

Further more - More JF17's - More pilots - More infrastructure - More maintenance. So you are looking at mothball effect.

i have no idea what you're going on about here. First of all, what is ''mothball effect''

second of all, JFT's will likely comprise the backbone -the workhorse of the PAF for years to come. So OBVIOUSLY all these 3 things you mentioned would rise.

the iaf --given its shortage of skilled pilots --and given its large acquisitions will likely see the exact same thing...so what point are your trying to make exactly ?

 

[Storm Force]

Currently The hi tech passive stealth capability and spectra ew suite makes rafale the best strike platform in operation today.

This is why in LIBYA it was rafale jamming libyan sam sites, libyan radars, leading the knock out blows.

THE OLDER F16/52 & MIRAGE2000-5 FOLLOWED behind to do the donkey work

Are PAF early warning and sam systems good enough to deal with 4.5 generation omnirole fighters