India tells China: Kashmir is to us what Tibet, Taiwan are to you

[rcrmj]

Its very silly statement because Tibet is an independent country under illigal chinese occupation by force and Taiwan is a seprate country.

But Kashmir is legally and rightfully belongs to India.

Thats because you are Ignorant about virtually everything

 

[Brotherhood]

Bombensturm...

The surrender of the Japanese was a result of the American nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki that led to the collapse of Japan.

The instrument of surrender was initiatied by the Americans under McArthur who instructed the Japanese to surrender to China....
Chinese "victories" as claimed by certain members here were NOT the reason for the Japanese collapse...in fact far from it....
The same has been clearly mentioned in your source as well...

NOTE: I would like to clarify my position that I am completely disgusted by the Japanese offensive in China and in fact laud the Chinese resistance in the face of Japanese brutality.

However, crediting China as a victor here would be wrong in the face of unequal losses faced by them and having lost their entire eastern seabord and some of their best divisions to the Japanese...Had America not dropped the bomb, China was bound to fall


Anyways.....My response was meant to quiet one Chinese poster a Mr.Hongwu.. In the Sino-Chinese war, I am on the side of China since they supported our cause against the British as well...

Nevertheless, I see the Chinese members here are equally nationalistic as the Indians.....something they often accuse us of....

You can keep degrading the Chinese contribution in WW2 regarding the defeat of the Japanese but history doesn't lie...

Franklin Roosevelt:"Had China not been fighting, or had China been defeated, how many Japanese troops do you think would then be deployed..." View More>>

Winston Churchill: "If the Japanese attack the West Indian Ocean, all our positions in the Middle East will be lost. Only China can help us..."
View More>>

Joseph Stalin: "Only when the Japanese invaders´ hands and feet are tied up, can we avoid fighting on two fronts simultaneously..."
View More>>

J.F.C. Fuller: "China´s fight against the Japanese aggression had a great impact on the course and outcome of World War II..."
View More>>

65th Anniversary of Victory in War against Japan - Japan surrender- world war two - 65th anniversary - CCTV-News - CNTV-English

 

[Peshwa]

You can keep degrading the Chinese contribution in WW2 regarding the defeat of the Japanese but history doesn't lie...

Franklin Roosevelt:"Had China not been fighting, or had China been defeated, how many Japanese troops do you think would then be deployed..." View More>>

Winston Churchill: "If the Japanese attack the West Indian Ocean, all our positions in the Middle East will be lost. Only China can help us..."
View More>>

Joseph Stalin: "Only when the Japanese invaders´ hands and feet are tied up, can we avoid fighting on two fronts simultaneously..."
View More>>

J.F.C. Fuller: "China´s fight against the Japanese aggression had a great impact on the course and outcome of World War II..."
View More>>

65th Anniversary of Victory in War against Japan - Japan surrender- world war two - 65th anniversary - CCTV-News - CNTV-English

Im sure you're aware of the fact that the allies wanted to use Chinese manpower to defend their own assets (airfields, supply routes) in Indo-China, Burma and India in particular...

Besides....other than quotes, do you have any evidence that the fall of Japan is attributed to Chinese victory and not America dropping the bomb on Japan that led to its collapse?

PS: No one has degraded Chinese contribution in WW2....I have clearly stated my position with regards to the same.
Though it seems you have a hard time digesting that Chinese were not victors in this endeavour...at least not on their own merit.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Besides....other than quotes, do you have any evidence that the fall of Japan is attributed to Chinese victory and not America dropping the bomb on Japan that led to its collapse?

Nobody claimed that.

That is a strawman argument.

 

[CardSharp]

Nobody claimed that.

Strawman argument.

Drop it, let's not let him derail the thread.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Im sure you're aware of the fact that the allies wanted to use Chinese manpower to defend their own assets (airfields, supply routes) in Indo-China, Burma and India in particular...

Besides....other than quotes, do you have any evidence that the fall of Japan is attributed to Chinese victory and not America dropping the bomb on Japan that led to its collapse?

PS: No one has degraded Chinese contribution in WW2....I have clearly stated my position with regards to the same.
Though it seems you have a hard time digesting that Chinese were not victors in this endeavour...at least not on their own merit.

First you say that we were not victors in the second Sino-Japanese war, which is BS, we have an instrument of surrender from Japan.

Then you say our fight against the Japanese had no merit.

As Cardsharp said, there is no point derailing the thread further, so don't expect any further replies.

 

[Brotherhood]

Im sure you're aware of the fact that the allies wanted to use Chinese manpower to defend their own assets (airfields, supply routes) in Indo-China, Burma and India in particular...

Besides....other than quotes, do you have any evidence that the fall of Japan is attributed to Chinese victory and not America dropping the bomb on Japan that led to its collapse?

At least i don't just talk with my mouth only, but with "historial quotes" from the most important Leaders of allies against the Japanese in WW2 and you? speculation for the sake of...?
BTW, do you have any evidence that China will fall without US nuking Japan other than your words?

 

[Peshwa]

Nobody claimed that.

Mr.Hongwu did....

I clearly mentioned that the statement that led to the Chinese members jumping in was to shut Mr.HongWu up....

And my responses have been to the same....read below.

Wrong. China never surrendered and in fact it was Japanese Empire that surrendered personally to Generalissimo Chiang Kai Shek. The Japanese Imperial Army was defeated by Chinese troops by 1945 and then finished off by Soviet troops. The US also offered Okinawa / Ryukyu Islands to China, but China refused.

It was the subsequent civil war and cold war that lead to China becoming weaker

I am completely fine with dropping the topic in the interest of the thread....

 

[CardSharp]

This is one of the most interesting threads on the forum, except hoping that it doesnt get to be a troll fest what with an absolute idiot on the loose.

I agree.

It would be interesting to understand the psyche of Indian diplomats when this kind of offer was made by the Chinese.
Was it because of Pakistan centric doctrines that we then followed, and not being able to foresee our own rise?
Why did those diplomats then consider a barren piece of Jammu & Kashmir more important than securing borders in Arunachal Pradesh?
Or was it plain arrogance?

I think the offer was rejected for two different reason, one before 1962 another after 1962.

Before 1962 it was a case of Nehru wanting to lay claim to British colonial borders, he thought more or less, if he can delay a settlement, the Chinese would give up and he'd able to take Aksai Chin and AP. (also one should consider the jublient mood after Goa annexation and how the public reacted after Nehru declared PLA troops on Indian Territory)

After 1962, I think the Indian government was uncertain as to what to do, it felt its own security severely compromised. To admit any concessions, would have been act that could have further jeopardized Indian security and would be disastrous politically by either party (something Joe mentioned)

 

[LaBong]

Nobody claimed that.

That is a strawman argument.

I think the weird Chinese kid claimed China as a victor of WW2, and Peshwa trying to make people understand China was not a victor in it's truest sense.

Anyway we can count out most of things Mr Hong say keeping in mind his premature exposure to Internet.

 

[CardSharp]

Read between the lines please.

Nobody claimed that.Mr.Hongwu did....

I clearly mentioned that the statement that led to the Chinese members jumping in was to shut Mr.HongWu up....

And my responses have been to the same....read below.

Quote:
Wrong. China never surrendered and in fact it was Japanese Empire that surrendered personally to Generalissimo Chiang Kai Shek. The Japanese Imperial Army was defeated by Chinese troops by 1945 and then finished off by Soviet troops. The US also offered Okinawa / Ryukyu Islands to China, but China refused.

It was the subsequent civil war and cold war that lead to China becoming weaker
I am completely fine with dropping the topic in the interest of the thread..

He said "defeated then finished off by the Soviets". This should have been a clue if you knew history. He obviously meant the IJA was defeated In China by the KMT and PLA, because China is the only theatre in which Soviet troops came into contact with the Japanese.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

I clearly mentioned that the statement that led to the Chinese members jumping in was to shut Mr.HongWu up....

And my responses have been to the same....read below.

If you have a problem with Mr Hongwu then feel free to send him a private message, and argue over the point he made. However he didn't actually say that Japan was defeated SOLELY by the Chinese at any point, and Cardsharp has explained the rest.

I do take offense at you saying that firstly Chinese were not the victors in the second Sino-Japanese war (BS), and further that we somehow lacked merit.

Like I said in the other thread about Japanese war atrocities, I don't expect any Indians to sympathize with us, and I have only seen them mentioning it when they are trying to "get at us" for one reason or another.

 

[Peshwa]

First you say that we were not victors in the second Sino-Japanese war, which is BS, we have an instrument of surrender from Japan.

Then you say our fight against the Japanese had no merit.

As Cardsharp said, there is no point derailing the thread further, so don't expect any further replies.

I have clearly stated my position in my reply to Bombenstrum......

If you think any of the facts I have mentioned there are wrong...please correct me with the necessary information you have. I am here to learn

Besides, I didnt invite you into this conversation to begin with. So will not miss your response.

 

[CardSharp]

I have clearly stated my position in my reply to Bombenstrum......

If you think any of the facts I have mentioned there are wrong...please correct me with the necessary information you have. I am here to learn

Besides, I didnt invite you into this conversation to begin with. So will not miss your response.

Fine, you are entitled to your opinion now can we drop it?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Now back to the ACTUAL topic of the thread:

(Anyone who wants to talk about the second Sino-Japanese war is free to start a new thread)

I think the offer was rejected for two different reason, one before 1962 another after 1962.

Before 1962 it was a case of Nehru wanting to lay claim to British colonial borders, he thought more or less, if he can delay a settlement, the Chinese would give up and he'd able to take Aksai Chin and AP. (also one should consider the jublient mood after Goa annexation and how the public reacted after Nehru declared PLA troops on Indian Territory)

After 1962, I think the Indian government was uncertain as to what to do, it felt its own security severely compromised. To admit any concessions, would have been act that could have further jeopardized Indian security and would be disastrous politically by either party (something Joe mentioned)

Do you think there is any scope for settling the borders nowadays? From what I gather, it doesn't look very likely, and that is probably an understatement.