India tells China: Kashmir is to us what Tibet, Taiwan are to you

[Joe Shearer]

Sir,
I have a question here. While i may perceive this, can't we not assume that there may be two factions inside China - one preferring peace and other preferring otherwise.

Thanks.

Not only inside china, these two factions are inside every country.

Precisely.

Look at the number of Indians who want a bloody confrontation - with China, with Pakistan, with Bangladesh. It isn't funny, and what makes it even less funny is that there are weirdos on the other side in each case who think the same way.

 

[HongWu]

So what will be the consequences if Kashmir and Arunachal Pradesh are red lines for India?

There cannot be two tigers on the same mountain! China will likely showdown with India again, just like 1962.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/86894-second-indo-chinese-war-2013-2015-a.html

 

[RoYaL~GuJJaR]

There cannot be two tigers on the same mountain! China will likely showdown with India again, just like 1962.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/86894-second-indo-chinese-war-2013-2015-a.html

Bringing 1962 into every post?? Lols..That happen half a century ago 50 years..!! And India was a new born nation at that time with no economy and organised military..Defeting a Nation which got independen merely 10 years ago(1962 war) and chest thumping over it?? Lols....Atleast we lost a war with a nation almost 3 times the size of our's...Atleast we didnt got massacred by a tiny nation..!!

Thank god!!

But this is'nt 1962..! And if you people are despreate for WAR!! Then bring it on..! I am sure all those dreams about becaming a super power will get vanish in drain..! Be it in 2011 or 2015..!

 

[Joe Shearer]

There cannot be two tigers on the same mountain! China will likely showdown with India again, just like 1962.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/86894-second-indo-chinese-war-2013-2015-a.html

Bringing 1962 into every post?? Lols..That happen half a century ago 50 years..!! And India was a new born nation at that time with no economy and organised military..Defeting a Nation which got independen merely 10 years ago(1962 war) and chest thumping over it?? Lols....Atleast we lost a war with a nation almost 3 times the size of our's...Atleast we didnt got massacred by a tiny nation..!!

Thank god!!

But this is'nt 1962..! And if you people are despreate for WAR!! Then bring it on..! I am sure all those dreams about becaming a super power will get vanish in drain..! Be it in 2011 or 2015..!

@ksgokul: QED.
@chinapakistan: thanks for the clarity of your response.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Dataminer,

If you are on line at the moment, could you help me with my earlier map query? Much obliged.

Regards,

 

[ksgokul]

@ksgokul: QED.

Sir,
I think that would be the result, whenever we have one or both the parties involved in a discussion start to do just propaganda and really are not interested in a conversation. I am really surprised when i see you replying to him. I always remember the saying

"Don’t argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

Thanks.

 

[ksgokul]

Dataminer,

If you are on line at the moment, could you help me with my earlier map query? Much obliged.

Regards,

Sir,
This is confirming to your statement.
China National Highway 219 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sir,
I think that would be the result, whenever we have one or both the parties involved in a discussion start to do just propaganda and really are not interested in a conversation. I am really surprised when i see you replying to him. I always remember the saying

"Don’t argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

Thanks.

Replying to whom? Normally I keep away from trolls. There is one whom the Chinese members want us to avoid; I avoid him religiously. There are some Chinese members who react badly to improper discussions but are very interesting on a logical, rational plane, and are a pleasure to talk to. Most of them are like this. So, too, with every other nationality: one or two or a few more lunatics, the vast majority prone to lose their tempers, but good to talk to at a rational plane.

Don't you find this the situation?

 

[ksgokul]

[/QUOTE]
There are some Chinese members who react badly to improper discussions but are very interesting on a logical, rational plane, and are a pleasure to talk to. Most of them are like this. So, too, with every other nationality: one or two or a few more lunatics, the vast majority prone to lose their tempers, but good to talk to at a rational plane.
Don't you find this the situation?[/QUOTE]

Sir,

I would agree to that. But i have been impressed only by a few conversations like the one you had with CardSharp in "Concentrating Forces..", where people coolly discuss their views and being useful for everyone to read and rethink what they have learnt. But i have gone and read almost all of your messages and gained atleast 10-20% of your insights.

Thanks.

 

[Joe Shearer]

There are some Chinese members who react badly to improper discussions but are very interesting on a logical, rational plane, and are a pleasure to talk to. Most of them are like this. So, too, with every other nationality: one or two or a few more lunatics, the vast majority prone to lose their tempers, but good to talk to at a rational plane.
Don't you find this the situation?[/QUOTE]

Sir,

I would agree to that. But i have been impressed only by a few conversations like the one you had with CardSharp in "Concentrating Forces..", where people coolly discuss their views and being useful for everyone to read and rethink what they have learnt. But i have gone and read almost all of your messages and gained atleast 10-20% of your insights.

Thanks.[/QUOTE]

What can I say to such a post but a very humble 'Thank You'? I notice that CardSharp has also acknowledged your post and your kind words, as is quite in line with what we have come to expect from him.

On the other hand, I must caution you against writing off some other excellent contributors among the Chinese members. The thing is that if I were to name them, it would amount to setting up a bathing beauty contest among them, and it is certain that they would then collectively kill me! But do look for what I have found, a calm, rational, logical view of things, among very many of our friends bearing Chinese flags.

Since you are celebrity-spotting, look out for Alternative; he is more than my match, and has a breath-taking spread of knowledge and information. He is busy skewering me on another thread even as we speak.

 

[kishana]

Hey! Dear
It was china which backstabbed
and Tibet was forcefully occupied by Chinese
Nehru did not allow the use of airforce or neither deployed forces on border
that was more than a proof
that he stupidly trusted Chinese who are a shame to be a Buddhist nation.

I don't know what the people of chinese are on this dispute
but for sure as we have seen so far chinese are all about deceit and not trustworthy.

And now there is no bhai bhai philosphy
Just one thing cheer denge

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

chinese are all about deceit and not trustworthy.

LOL okay sure, whatever you say.

 

[Peshwa]

Unlike France China didn't come entirely under Axis occupation.

And Chinese do have a surrender document.

Second Sino-Japanese War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bombensturm...

The surrender of the Japanese was a result of the American nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki that led to the collapse of Japan.

The instrument of surrender was initiatied by the Americans under McArthur who instructed the Japanese to surrender to China....
Chinese "victories" as claimed by certain members here were NOT the reason for the Japanese collapse...in fact far from it....
The same has been clearly mentioned in your source as well...

NOTE: I would like to clarify my position that I am completely disgusted by the Japanese offensive in China and in fact laud the Chinese resistance in the face of Japanese brutality.

However, crediting China as a victor here would be wrong in the face of unequal losses faced by them and having lost their entire eastern seabord and some of their best divisions to the Japanese...Had America not dropped the bomb, China was bound to fall


Anyways.....My response was meant to quiet one Chinese poster a Mr.Hongwu.. In the Sino-Chinese war, I am on the side of China since they supported our cause against the British as well...

Nevertheless, I see the Chinese members here are equally nationalistic as the Indians.....something they often accuse us of....

 

[gubbi]

This is one of the most interesting threads on the forum, except hoping that it doesnt get to be a troll fest what with an absolute idiot on the loose.

Thanks to Joe, you are indeed an ocean of knowledge. Interesting insight into the Indo-China talks.

India failed to take advantage of this very convenient solution. As has already been discussed, because of its arid and unpopulated nature, there is no Indian interest in Aksai Chin, while China finds it a convenient plain through which to run its strategic highway between Lanzhou and Xigatse. It is of vital strategic interest to China, of no strategic or cultural interest to India.

India also failed to take advantage of the flexibility of the Chinese position on Arunachal Pradesh, which is a legitimate area of Indian sovereignty, for a variety of reasons, vitiated only by lack of precision in defining boundaries and in identifying viable landmarks or topological divisions.

It would be interesting to understand the psyche of Indian diplomats when this kind of offer was made by the Chinese.
Was it because of Pakistan centric doctrines that we then followed, and not being able to foresee our own rise?
Why did those diplomats then consider a barren piece of Jammu & Kashmir more important than securing borders in Arunachal Pradesh?
Or was it plain arrogance?

Unfortunately, the dilatory nature of bureaucratic decision-making on the Indian side, and the huge difficulties constituted by political fear, by both major national parties, the Congress and the BJP, of acceptance of cession of land by India to China, (leaving aside the constitutional difficulty of this step, which probably requires an amendment to the constitution) stood in the way of a solution.

How is the decision making process today different, if any, from that being followed then?

As a result, today the PLA as well as the PLA AF and the PLAN have a far more aggressive attitude towards neighbouring countries than does the Foreign Ministry.

Are you implying that there is a possibility of rise of multiple blocks of power in China, a la Pakistan? Isnt the PLA firmly under the control of the CPC?

It is my personal evaluation that we may have to wait for the successor of Hu Jin Tao, the successor being a man with some authority among the military circles himself, greater than the influence of HU, or even for an efflux of time until China is markedly ahead of India in all metrics, for a lasting peace to be settled, and for boundaries to be settled.

Hu's successor is most probably going to be Xi Jinping - some say he's a hawk, while others say he is very pragmatic. Whats you opinion and how would he influence Indo-China talks?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Are you implying that there is a possibility of rise of multiple blocks of power in China, a la Pakistan? Isnt the PLA firmly under the control of the CPC?

The PLA is the military arm of the CPC.

All authority ultimately derives from the Politburo Standing Committee, i.e. from civilian leaders.

For example, Hu Jintao is the Paramount leader of China, and he is ALSO the head of the Central Military Commission.

There may be different factions "vying for influence" within the party itself, but at the end of the day, everyone answers to the Politburo.