Europe becoming ‘platform for terrorists’, says US

[Neo]

Europe becoming ‘platform for terrorists’, says US​

January 17, 2008

LONDON, Jan 16: US Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said on Wednesday that one of the biggest threats to US security may now come from within Europe.

In an interview with BBC radio, Chertoff said that American authorities were becoming increasingly aware of a real risk of Europe becoming a “platform for terrorists”.

He said that it was important to step up security checks on passengers coming from Europe to the United States.

“One of the things we have become concerned about lately is the possibility of Europe becoming a platform for a threat against the United States,” Chertoff said.

“We have watched the rise of home-grown terrorism,” he added, citing the Madrid train bombing in March 2004 and recent foiled plots in Britain and Germany.

“That suggests to us that the terrorists are increasingly looking to Europe both as a target and as a platform for terrorist attacks.”

Chertoff’s comments came after reports that British intelligence services are investigating an Islamist Web site which said that a branch of Al Qaeda had been established in Britain.

Security experts fear a posting on the site, urging young Muslim men to rise up against what it called infidels such as Prime Minister Gordon Brown and former Prime Minister Tony Blair, may be genuine.

Chertoff said that while Washington had no plans to suspend a visa waiver programme that allows most Europeans who travel to the United States as tourists to do so without a visa, authorities would like to step up advance checks on travellers.

“We do want to elevate some of the security measures in the programme,” he said, proposing an advance travel authorisation system which would require potential visitors to register online their intention to travel to America to allow authorities to clear them in advance.

Chertoff also said that the absence of any attacks in the United States since September 11, 2001 had created “a certain sense of complacency” which needed to be dispelled.

“When I lift my eyes and look around the world and I look at what happens in Britain and Germany and Spain and Bali and Pakistan, I don’t see terrorism going away, I see an Al Qaeda that’s emboldened,” he said.

“I don’t see any diminishment of the threat and my concern is that we not relax and let the enemy get ahead of us.”—Reuters

Europe becoming ‘platform for terrorists’, says US -DAWN - Top Stories; January 17, 2008

 

[mujahideen]

Well the solution is simple. Do what Hitler did to the Jews. Pretty soon they will lock all the Muslims up, deport as many as they can. I think this will happen is about 20-30 years, because I dont see an end to this "War on Terror." These people who are terrorists today were called freedom fighter and holy warriors by the West in the 1980s.

 

[Flintlock]

I have already mentioned the reasons for this in the 'Ackbar' thread.

Most European countries, especially Britain, are making a mistake by freely allowing immigration of people who don't know anything about British culture.

This creates a group of people who feel alienated in their own country, and as a result, turn to extremism.

Naturally, these terrorists find it easy to misuse the liberal policies of European governments to spread terror propaganda.

According to me, there should be a concerted effort by European governments to make immigrants understand and appreciate the laws and culture of their adopted countries.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

^^^And why isn't that situation replicated in the US? The causes of extremism in Europe are a lot more varied than simple "lack of understanding of local culture and values".

 

[Flintlock]

^^^And why isn't that situation replicated in the US? The causes of extremism in Europe are a lot more varied than simple "lack of understanding of local culture and values".

There is an explanation for that too.

Firstly, US is a very vast country with a large population. Illegal immigrants don't make much of a dent on American culture or demographics.

Secondly, US immigration policies are very strict. Most immigrants are highly skilled workers who contribute immensely to the US economy and integrate very well with the rest of American society.

Thridly, illegal mexican immigration is one of the biggest headaches for USA. They are mostly unskilled labourers who are semi-educated and don't understand the functioning of democracy. They don't speak English either.

That is why Mexican immigration is a huge election issue in the US.

In Europe on the other hand, the countries are smaller. Even a tiny group of immigrants/refugees cause problems by increasing crime rates, putting pressure on the welfare systems, and isolating themselves from the mainstream by living in ghettos.

Read this: NORWAY CALLED ‘HAVEN FOR GENDER EQUALITY’, AS WOMEN’S ANTI-DISCRIMINATION COMMITTEE EXAMINES REPORTS ON COMPLIANCE WITH CONVENTION

And this:Indymedia Scotland: Muslim Rape Epidemic in Sweden and Norway - Authorities Look the Other Way

And this:Raped in Oslo | The Brussels Journal

Thanks.

 

[Flintlock]

^^^And why isn't that situation replicated in the US? The causes of extremism in Europe are a lot more varied than simple "lack of understanding of local culture and values".

An understanding of local culture is the most important thing. An integrated population is a happy population. Always.

Countries with ghettoized populations, with little understanding between groups, invariably end up with open conflict.

Why do you think political commentators are fretting about the ghettoization of muslim populations in Gujarat? Same reason.

Why do you think that commentators are fretting about the fact that the rich people in India are isolating themselves from the rest of the population by living in gated colonies? Same reason.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I think you have made my point. The reason the illegal Hispanic (predominantly conservative Christian) is resented in the US is because they are perceived to be a huge burden on health care, the public school system and crime. These are almost the exact same issues you associate with the large African/Muslim immigrant populations in Europe.

The similarities between the two groups tell quite a bit - illegal immigrants, less educated, less well off, less likely to progress up the economic ladder (especially in Europe where a lot of socialist economies tend to discourage the sort of free market entrepreneurship you see in the US), and segregated communities as a result of various factors.

These problems are the issue - not a lack of a vigorously enforced cultural indoctrination program. The latter sounds tempting, because it offers a "simple" fix to the problems faced, but the truth is that the problems are a lot more complex than that.

 

[Flintlock]

One more thing, we must understand the difference between an integrated population and a fundamentalist one.

An integrated population can communicate easily with one another, since they have a good understanding of one another. They can reach consensus faster and implement policies efficiently.

A ghettoized population is a result of mistrust between population groups. Because of this trust deficit, there is a lack of communication and understanding.
As a result, we have vote bank politics and communal tensions, and even rioting.

 

[Flintlock]

I think you have made my point. The reason the illegal Hispanic (predominantly conservative Christian) is resented in the US is because they are perceived to be a huge burden on health care, the public school system and crime. These are almost the exact same issues you associate with the large African/Muslim immigrant populations in Europe.

Yes, I agree.

The similarities between the two groups tell quite a bit - illegal immigrants, less educated, less well off, less likely to progress up the economic ladder (especially in Europe where a lot of socialist economies tend to discourage the sort of free market entrepreneurship you see in the US), and segregated communities as a result of various factors.

Exactly.

These problems are the issue - not a lack of a vigorously enforced cultural indoctrination program. The latter sounds tempting, because it offers a "simple" fix to the problems faced, but the truth is that the problems are a lot more complex than that.

Here is where I"ll clarify what I'm trying to say.

The object is not in indoctrinate the immigrants...that will lead to a deficit of free thought and ideas in society, and be counterproductive...and eventually lead to fundamentalism.

The object is to sensitize the immigrants to the culture of the country, and to democracy, and also to ensure that they are able to communicate with the rest of the population, and are capable of becoming productive citizens.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The object is to sensitize the immigrants to the culture of the country, and to democracy, and also to ensure that they are able to communicate with the rest of the population, and are capable of becoming productive citizens.

Yes but hardly any culture in the world supports murder, rape and terrorism - so the problems associated with certain sections of immigrant populations don't come about because the immigrant says to himself, "Hey, back home it was perfectly acceptable to go and rob that old lady, rape the neighbors girl and kill my boss, so I'll do it now because thats my culture" - they come about because the problems of lack of education, being illegal and therefore living in the shadows (interacting with other less savory characters and lifestyles),lack of economic prospects so on and so forth. If you cannot fix these problems, you cannot make them appreciate the values of democracy and understand the local culture (which is not about respecting the law).

When you look at the terrorist incidents in the UK, a lot of the people involved have been born and grown up there. They have gone through the British school system, interacted with its laws, people and culture. There is nothing more you can do in terms of "sensitizing" these individuals to the culture of the nation they live in, yet they stray into crime. Obviously the problem is elsewhere.

 

[Flintlock]

Yes but hardly any culture in the world supports murder, rape and terrorism - so the problems associated with certain sections of immigrant populations don't come about because the immigrant says to himself, "Hey, back home it was perfectly acceptable to go and rob that old lady, rape the neighbors girl and kill my boss, so I'll do it now because thats my culture" - they come about because the problems of lack of education, being illegal and therefore living in the shadows (interacting with other less savory characters and lifestyles),lack of economic prospects so on and so forth. If you cannot fix these problems, you cannot make them appreciate the values of democracy and understand the local culture (which is not about respecting the law).

.
Okay, I'll be making what I think is a controversial statement here, about the rape cases and the psychology behind it....

See, the immigrants to these countries, frankly, are not used to seeing women behaving so freely. They feel threatened by this, and as you must have heard, rape is about power.

As far as crime rates are concerned, yes, obviously, lack of education is the problem. I think its fairly obvious that educated and qualified people must be allowed to immigrate.

When you look at the terrorist incidents in the UK, a lot of the people involved have been born and grown up there. They have gone through the British school system, interacted with its laws, people and culture. There is nothing more you can do in terms of "sensitizing" these individuals to the culture of the nation they live in, yet they stray into crime. Obviously the problem is elsewhere.

Hmm, you're right. The problem is a little more complicated.

From what I've read on the internet, the problem is a result of the feeling of alienation that young muslims have, because they are torn between the conservatism that their religion/parents tells them to follow, and the completely opposite culture of the British.

Add this to lack of education and unemployment, and you have an explosive combination.

Now all you need, is the local preacher, who, from what I've read, is imported from muslim countries without much screening. You must have heard about how some mosques in britain are preaching religious propaganda.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Agnostic,

I have heard things to the contrary (about the legal immigrants, that is).

They say that the original immigrants are law abiding and were only interested in making a better life.

It is the local born, who are rootless, and who are the ones that create the problems.

 

[roadrunner]

Agnostic,

I have heard things to the contrary (about the legal immigrants, that is).

They say that the original immigrants are law abiding and were only interested in making a better life.

It is the local born, who are rootless, and who are the ones that create the problems.

There is some fact in this, unlike Stealth Assassin's right wing Dravidic garbage (can't stand spineless little fools like him). The Asian immigrants to Europe in the sixties and seventies tended to be very law abiding and hard working. Subsequent generations have adopted local cultural traits.

SA, your theories about immigrants getting turned on by "women behaving so freely", is nothing more than your own sick dravidic fantasies coming out. If this was the case, why were rape cases not skyrocketing in the Uk during the immigration waves, since these people "would not have been used to women behaving so freely". If anyone seems to have a sick enough mind to come up with this idea, it seems to be yourself.

 

[dabong1]

One more thing, we must understand the difference between an integrated population and a fundamentalist one.

An integrated population can communicate easily with one another, since they have a good understanding of one another. They can reach consensus faster and implement policies efficiently.

A ghettoized population is a result of mistrust between population groups. Because of this trust deficit, there is a lack of communication and understanding.
As a result, we have vote bank politics and communal tensions, and even rioting.

Leicester is a city where all your above comments fit in....only thing is its a majority hindu indian city

Some wards in the north-east of the city are more than 70% indian Asian
The Commission for Racial Equality (CRE) had estimated that by 2011 Leicester would have approximately a 50% ethnic minority population, making it the first city in Britain not to have a white British majority.

You need to tell your brethren to mix more

 

[Energon]

This is obviously a very complex topic, and both you guys (stealth assassin and Agonstic Muslim) have put up some really great points in your discussions.

However, here are some of my points of contention. As far as Islamist radicalization in the UK is concerned, immigration status (legal/illegal) doesn't seem to play a major role. As Agnostic has correctly pointed out, many of the terrorist have been UK born and undergone a fair bit of education in the UK and still find themselves isolated and accepting of radical Islam; heck there are whites who embrace this as well. There are a spate of clerics and religious leaders who openly spout anti western rhetoric from their legally granted pulpits. So yes, the problem is in fact the ideology they are disseminating. Obviously this is a distorted form of Islam (so I'm told, I am not an expert on Islamic theology myself); but nobody is stopping it and soon enough these views will in fact become mainstream.

Stealth has pointed out the major differences between the USA and the UK which are: Higher selectivity and a better social tool of integration. This is not the case in Europe. The American system unlike the European one is also designed to integrate their immigrants better by offering them equitable opportunities. For instance, in the UK, foreign trained physicians are always on a lower pay scale for the entire duration of their career with the NHS; as opposed to the US, where a all specialists after passing the USMLE (American boards and licensure exams) regardless of which medical/dental school they went to are payed the same.

The fact of the matter is that not all immigrant groups are hated for the same reasons and hence can't be compared with one another. The African immigrants in Europe for instance are in fact despised for the poor social values they bring with them. Indian and Jews have always been despised for their propensity to become market dominant minorities (Amy Chua's "World on Fire" is a good resource on this phenomenon). South American Immigrants are hated for being a financial burden and depressing the wages for Americans. Arabs and other Muslim immigrants from south Asia are despised for their acceptance of radical Islamist ideology.