Shadows - Forerunners of Al Dajjal, Freemasons war on Islam

[Sinnerman108]

I am Operations & Project Manager in engineering services field and handling/managing 19 engineers like you!!!!!

Does your argument is any different than allmost every moron made through out human history? No, similar ranting and Yes science is my religion, at least It did not force you to put your head under sand. It did not mis-guide you to kill any fellow human being on the basis of his beliefs. Science did not tell me like religion that this is truth and nothing can be true other than this and beyond this. Science did not stop me to question itself and stop thinking rationally like all inhuman cults, called religion. I did not hear a bigger lie that religion is peaceful, instead every religion has its share of global anarchy.

Two can play this game;
The fact that you do or do not manage engineers does not extend credibility to your statements.
History has seen too many mega projects fail,
if at all, the fact that you manage a team of engineers casts a shadow of doubt.
Statistically speaking that is.

Now, science has re written itself several times, facts and theorems have been proven and disproved.
How do you propose humanity obtain guidance during such times as " earth is at the center of the universe".

 

[Sinnerman108]

Agree to that, i certainly doubt he will look like that.
The same way I doubt that Imam Mahdi will come on a horse wearing a turban.
chances are he may very well be in casual clothes carrying a tablet pc and have rooh afza.

Good, lets drag @tarrar here.

What seems to be the trend, if we were to plot history last 10,000 years or so.
The further past a prophet is, the more "verifiable" or should I say "visible" signs he had.
Jesus made the dead alive,
Musa had his staff
Noah had his

plotting back, to Adam's sons, who when presented sacrifice and placed on mountain top;
knew the result if lightening would take it.

Thus it seems through time , God had decreased his help in terms of "visual aids"; and encouraged to think and understand.

This is also in line with God's will, that is Proof is presented and yet people disobey; they will be destroyed.
and God's way; of destroying all people who disobeyed AFTER seeing a sign also falls in line with this argument.

Thus, do you really think Dajjal will be 3 eyed ? or 1 eyed or what ever ?

Do you really think God and Magog will be some weird creatures ?

Lastly, to answer @tarrar question of how to define Fitna;
then Fitna is just that. What ever can not be defined truly and causes a split decision
to a point.

 

[Mitro]

The Quran not only says that the people of knowledge have the ability and capacity to understand the Quran by themselves (S29. V43), but that they should also turn to the Beloved Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) for the explanation (S16. V44). Thus, if the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) had not through his codified law explained in detail the concise meaning of the Holy Quran, it would have remained abstract. Similarly, if the learned Imaams had not elucidated and expounded the Ahadith they too would have remained abstract to us and the Ulama after them would have found it beyond their ability to make this meaningful to us. Thus, their link of guidance has been established by Allah Almighty. Whoever tries to break this link is certainly not in the path of guidance. In fact, such a person has clearly gone astray.

It is for this reason that Sayidduna Umar ibn Khattab (radi Allahu anhu) said: "Soon there will come a time when you will be confronted by people who will entangle in controversies with the ambiguous verses of the Holy Quran. Overpower them through Hadith, because those who possess the knowledge of Hadith will be in the position to understand the Quran." (Darimi, Darqutni)


O Muslims! Pay no heed to these misguided people. Whenever they try to cast doubt in you through the Quran, dispel your doubts through the Hadith. If they try to undermine your faith in this, seek solutions on the matter provided by the juristic Imaams. The solutions provided by the Imaams will most certainly establish the distinction between truth and falsehood. This will help settle the dust of uncertainty and misguidance through these ******** of Truth. If they try to argue over Hadith, the crystal clear meanings of the Ahadith provided by the Imaams will silence them to such an extent that they either say that they do not know the Hadith or that they do not believe in the Imaams. At this juncture you will know that their Imaam is none other than Iblees, the Cursed, who is leading them astray and preventing them from accepting the Hadith and the decisions of the Imaams. Do keep this in mind at all times because, through the will of Allah, it will protect you at all times from these faithless, misguided sects.

Unfortunately thats not the case - the Hadith & the Sunnah or more appropriately what we allege are the Hadith & the Sunnah not only 'add' to the Koran but has next to no historical continuity with the earliest known book of hadith (Bukhari or Muslim) being compiled around 197 A.H - Thats more than a 150 years after the Prophet (PBUH) 's death & even at that you've got a myriad Ahadith who're not word for word the same with minor omissions or additions to them even when multiple ahadhith might have the same context - Such cannot be said about the Koran which has perhaps a greater historical continuity to it than any other piece of information that mankind has ever shared with each other !

And it goes without saying that there are significant issues concerning the Hadith that goes well beyond their Historical Continuity !

Additionally if we need the Hadith to understand the Koran than what does that imply about the Koran ? That it is inadequate, incomplete or even unintelligible for the common man to understand ?

Or does it mean that we're doing exactly what the other two Abrahamic Religions did - Talmud gave way to Oral Traditions in Judaism & the Old Testament & the New are at times diagrammatically opposed to each other when it comes to Christianity ! Even when one has Eastern Spiritual Traditions like Hinduism the Vedas, though lost, have been supplemented a plethora of times by the words & works of the Saints, whatever they maybe called.

Why is that ?

Either God is making the same mistake over & over again without learning anything from it - A proclamation that would be both irrational & blasphemous, if you ask !

Then maybe its something else ? Maybe the Hadith weren't supposed to be a part of Faith but rather a part of 'History' & that the Koran & the Koran alone was the infallible word of God that didn't need any amount of supporting aids to be understood for saying otherwise would suggest that the Koran comes with some inherent deficiency or some inherent inadequacy & I don't think thats the case !

 

[Anotherangle]

The Quran not only says that the people of knowledge have the ability and capacity to understand the Quran by themselves (S29. V43), but that they should also turn to the Beloved Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) for the explanation (S16. V44). Thus, if the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) had not through his codified law explained in detail the concise meaning of the Holy Quran, it would have remained abstract. Similarly, if the learned Imaams had not elucidated and expounded the Ahadith they too would have remained abstract to us and the Ulama after them would have found it beyond their ability to make this meaningful to us. Thus, their link of guidance has been established by Allah Almighty. Whoever tries to break this link is certainly not in the path of guidance. In fact, such a person has clearly gone astray.

It is for this reason that Sayidduna Umar ibn Khattab (radi Allahu anhu) said: "Soon there will come a time when you will be confronted by people who will entangle in controversies with the ambiguous verses of the Holy Quran. Overpower them through Hadith, because those who possess the knowledge of Hadith will be in the position to understand the Quran." (Darimi, Darqutni)

O Muslims! Pay no heed to these misguided people. Whenever they try to cast doubt in you through the Quran, dispel your doubts through the Hadith. If they try to undermine your faith in this, seek solutions on the matter provided by the juristic Imaams. The solutions provided by the Imaams will most certainly establish the distinction between truth and falsehood. This will help settle the dust of uncertainty and misguidance through these ******** of Truth. If they try to argue over Hadith, the crystal clear meanings of the Ahadith provided by the Imaams will silence them to such an extent that they either say that they do not know the Hadith or that they do not believe in the Imaams. At this juncture you will know that their Imaam is none other than Iblees, the Cursed, who is leading them astray and preventing them from accepting the Hadith and the decisions of the Imaams. Do keep this in mind at all times because, through the will of Allah, it will protect you at all times from these faithless, misguided sects.

Thanks for posting; I hope every Muslim understand this. These misguided people are sure to emerge as predicted in ahadith. It is very difficult to explain how much value Muslims always gave and give to the Prophet's (peace be upon him) words and how important is to be truthful in Islam (as narration is ralated to truth). These misguided people think that the earlier Muslims were just ordinary people (or liars as they themselves are). I wish they knew how much value is associated with TRUTH in Islam and how it is related to every practice of Islam. Of course, it is not easy task to explain Islam in words, especially today.

 

[Mitro]

The best thing for the muslim is to stick to the basic i.e
get knowledge of what is haram and halaal in day to day life and treat all human being with respect .
and if somebody wants to acquire knowledge then go to the right authority i.e Imam of the masjid and not to get knowledge from so call Fake imam on internet they just want to astray us from right path and put doubt in good deeds.
Please check if the imam does not have a ideology of blowing once self in market place you know what i mean

May Allah guide us all to the right path and protect us from Dajjal fitna and make us Ghulam E Rasool PBUH and Ashiq E Rasool PBUH.
AMeen.

Thanks for posting; I hope every Muslim understand this. These misguided people are sure to emerge as predicted in ahadith. It is very difficult to explain how much value Muslims always gave and give to the Prophet's (peace be upon him) words and how important is to be truthful in Islam (as narration is ralated to truth). These misguided people think that the earlier Muslims were just ordinary people (or liars as they themselves are). I wish they knew how much value is associated with TRUTH in Islam and how it is related to every practice of Islam. Of course, it is not easy task to explain Islam in words, especially today.

 

[Panther 57]

It is really interesting to see the flow of conversation. It started with Free Masons as forerunners of Dajjal. It changed its course to Quran, Hadith, personal glorification, correctness of hadith, requirement of Hadith, authentication of Hadith, Zakat, and so on.

 

[Maler]

Two can play this game;
The fact that you do or do not manage engineers does not extend credibility to your statements.
History has seen too many mega projects fail,
if at all, the fact that you manage a team of engineers casts a shadow of doubt.
Statistically speaking that is.

Now, science has re written itself several times, facts and theorems have been proven and disproved.
How do you propose humanity obtain guidance during such times as " earth is at the center of the universe".

I was simply replying to chack bamu.

Yes science has made numreous mistakes, but it has the tendancy to withstand criticism & correct itself. But you can't say the same about religion. Can any religion correct any thing written in its holybooks?? no!! Every religion claims itself a complete truth and nothing is true outside it.

What is the religious claims of martyrdom or heavens or hell or 72 virgins?? can you prove any?? no!! even you can't dare to raise a question on It.

 

[Chak Bamu]

I am Operations & Project Manager in engineering services field and handling/managing 19 engineers like you!!!!!

Does your argument is any different than allmost every moron made through out human history? No, similar ranting and Yes science is my religion, at least It did not force you to put your head under sand. It did not mis-guide you to kill any fellow human being on the basis of his beliefs. Science did not tell me like religion that this is truth and nothing can be true other than this and beyond this. Science did not stop me to question itself and stop thinking rationally like all inhuman cults, called religion. I did not hear a bigger lie that religion is peaceful, instead every religion has its share of global anarchy.

I am sorry to have called you a twenty year old. Apparently you aren't. I think I confused you with some other poster who is a twenty year old. In any case I apologize.

I run my own business and so I am not quite like the engineers you think you manage or handle. Once you get bitten by entrepreneurship bug, you become basically unemployable I gave up being managed 14 years ago.

Lastly, science is open to abuse too. All it takes is someone with motivation to use it. I hope you know about Eugenics and race theories apparently based on science. USSR was a Godless country and look at the number of people killed by them. They did not need find an excuse in the name of God and yet just look at number of people killed, culled, imprisoned, deported and destroyed.

You blame religion only because you want to blame it, even though blame truly lies with motivation of people who misuse the name of religion.

No other ideology has killed as many people as nationalism. This concept may be wrapped in name of a religion sometimes, but it is essentially Godless in itself and utterly without morality or restrain when placed on the pedestal as supreme ideology.

The seeds of extremism are linked to psychology, not necessarily religion. Just read your post again and notice how you sound like a bigot. I think this drives home an important realization - that anyone, even you, can become an extremist. And while underlying psychology supports extremist behavior, any excuse would do; with religion being most convenient one.

I have seen enough and learned enough to know that science is not, and can not be, a supreme ideology. It belongs to a lower realm of intellect, and certainly can not bring enlightenment. It is too boastful and proud to be a guiding philosophy. And people who absolutely believe in it are similarly boastful and proud.

Knowledge is proud that it knows too much, wisdom is humble that it knows nothing.

 

[Maler]

I am sorry to have called you a twenty year old. Apparently you aren't. I think I confused you with some other poster who is a twenty year old. In any case I apologize.

I run my own business and so I am not quite like the engineers you think you manage or handle. Once you get bitten by entrepreneurship bug, you become basically unemployable I gave up being managed 14 years ago.

Lastly, science is open to abuse too. All it takes is someone with motivation to use it. I hope you know about Eugenics and race theories apparently based on science. USSR was a Godless country and look at the number of people killed by them. They did not need find an excuse in the name of God and yet just look at number of people killed, culled, imprisoned, deported and destroyed.

You blame religion only because you want to blame it, even though blame truly lies with motivation of people who misuse the name of religion.

No other ideology has killed as many people as nationalism. This concept may be wrapped in name of a religion sometimes, but it is essentially Godless in itself and utterly without morality or restrain when placed on the pedestal as supreme ideology.

The seeds of extremism are linked to psychology, not necessarily religion. Just read your post again and notice how you sound like a bigot. I think this drives home an important realization - that anyone, even you, can become an extremist. And while underlying psychology supports extremist behavior, any excuse would do; with religion being most convenient one.

I have seen enough and learned enough to know that science is not, and can not be, a supreme ideology. It belongs to a lower realm of intellect, and certainly can not bring enlightenment. It is too boastful and proud to be a guiding philosophy. And people who absolutely believe in it are similarly boastful and proud.

Knowledge is proud that it knows too much, wisdom is humble that it knows nothing.

No worries and no need to apologies. My reply was also bit naive, You are like my senior. So cheers

 

[tarrar]

Good, lets drag @<u><a href="http://www.defence.pk/forums/member.php?u=12183" target="_blank">tarrar</a></u> here.

What seems to be the trend, if we were to plot history last 10,000 years or so.
The further past a prophet is, the more "verifiable" or should I say "visible" signs he had.
Jesus made the dead alive,
Musa had his staff
Noah had his

plotting back, to Adam's sons, who when presented sacrifice and placed on mountain top;
knew the result if lightening would take it.

Thus it seems through time , God had decreased his help in terms of "visual aids"; and encouraged to think and understand.

This is also in line with God's will, that is Proof is presented and yet people disobey; they will be destroyed.
and God's way; of destroying all people who disobeyed AFTER seeing a sign also falls in line with this argument.

Thus, do you really think Dajjal will be 3 eyed ? or 1 eyed or what ever ?

Do you really think God and Magog will be some weird creatures ?

Lastly, to answer @<u><a href="http://www.defence.pk/forums/member.php?u=12183" target="_blank">tarrar</a></u> question of how to define Fitna;
then Fitna is just that. What ever can not be defined truly and causes a split decision
to a point.

It's like I said in my post on this thread that Dajjal will have 2 eyes, his one eye will be fine & the other will look like as if he is blind by that eye but he can see through that eye, that eye will be grass green in color & there will be a layer on his eye thin like our nails.

Now Gog & magog. Hadees Al Qudsi "A power so great that none but I can destroy them"

This is a topic that needs debate because the Scholars have two stories, one is that Gog & Magog were released in the time of Prophet Mohammed (P.B.U.H) & they (Scholars) call US & Russia Gog & Magog, which I don't believe in.

Second is (which I believe) that Gog & Magog are still inside the Iron mountain or barrier build by Dhul Qarnayn, this video should help to answer your question.

This another video which I am posting here is for @Oscar & everybody else who wants to watch it "The end times & the Mahdi"

I hope it helped those who are confused & there are some who say that Imam Mahdi already came long before which is not true, today the Muslims around the world are praying & asking help from ALLAH to save them from those who are killing them, Imam Mahdi will come to help the Muslims & he will be the true leader who will lead the Muslims till Hazrat Essa (A.S) arrives.

Coming to your last question on Fitna.

The word fitna comes from an Arabic verb which means to "seduce, tempt, or lure." There are many shades of meaning, mostly referring to a feeling of disorder or unrest.

Variations of the word fitna are found throughout the Quran to describe the trials and temptations that may face the believers. The term has also been used to describe divisions which occurred in the early years of the Muslim community.

In modern usage, it is used to describe forces that cause controversy, fragmentation, scandal, chaos, or discord within the Muslim community, disturbing social peace and order.

I hope what I said & shared helped, if there is any other question please do ask & I will try my best to answer or if I have knowledge of it INSHAALLAH I will try to answer the question in best possible way.

 

[SQ8]

Good, lets drag @tarrar here.

What seems to be the trend, if we were to plot history last 10,000 years or so.
The further past a prophet is, the more "verifiable" or should I say "visible" signs he had.
Jesus made the dead alive,
Musa had his staff
Noah had his

plotting back, to Adam's sons, who when presented sacrifice and placed on mountain top;
knew the result if lightening would take it.

Thus it seems through time , God had decreased his help in terms of "visual aids"; and encouraged to think and understand.

This is also in line with God's will, that is Proof is presented and yet people disobey; they will be destroyed.
and God's way; of destroying all people who disobeyed AFTER seeing a sign also falls in line with this argument.

Thus, do you really think Dajjal will be 3 eyed ? or 1 eyed or what ever ?

Do you really think God and Magog will be some weird creatures ?

Lastly, to answer @tarrar question of how to define Fitna;
then Fitna is just that. What ever can not be defined truly and causes a split decision
to a point.

The simple fact is, in all these discussions one has to be able to keep one important thing in mind.
Spiritual studies and Science are not the same nor can they be approached with the same research methods.
You cannot start looking for proofs for seven layers of sky or otherwise in science.
Rather, scientific research must be followed in its own methodology and discoveries must be kept within the realm of science. If in the end you find something the correlates with religion(such as the concept of man being formed out of a clot of blood..embryo) then you may find personal spiritual satisfaction in that.

At the same time, the concept of Dajjal is to be approached the same way.. you keep two distinct possibilities.. that there may very well be a man with his right eye deformed out there. Or that concept is a metaphor for a system or otherwise.

Maybe Gog and Magog are some alien creatures or maybe they are a race. At this point, the concept is not clear so all possibilities are to be kept open.
After all, the idea that there is other life out there is also kept alive yet at this point there is no proof.

@Armstrong
The same applies to your argument, you are adamant in trying to propose the argument that the Sunnah is all hearsay and additional without giving the benefit of the doubt(based on years of acknowledged..by both Muslims and non-muslims alike) of theological research that many of the Hadiath are reported fairly accurately and basing your argument at the end on the supposition that due to certain "weak" hadiath having differences or no base in Quranic teachings they should be discarded alike is not convincing to me.
Moreover, it is the very study of this Sunnah that shows that many of the actions regarding Hudood and other actions were interpreted and actioned according to the tradition of the times and the Quran. Hence, they only serve again.. as examples or explanations of what blueprints are to be followed based on the concepts in the Quran. Again, it is not convincing both theologically nor spiritually that the Quran was revealed as it is through a messenger for its own status as a collection of verses and guidance without any example of how to carry out the guidance given seems illogical. As to the idea that it would be blasphemy to think that God made mistakes in how the Quran was compiled or that it needed additional explanation.. it would also seem blasphemous as to why he would need a messenger in the first place if he is lord of the worlds. Yet , we are ready to agree to disagree on the why of that decision but not willing to agree to the idea that the whole concept of a messenger and his status as both an ordinary and extraordinary being may also be part of a plan.

Again, further explanation as to why I stick to this particular belief that the Sunnah is essential to the completion of religion needs a further study of the life of the Prophet and foremost abandon of the idea that considers the Hadiath scripture and more of a fairly accurate account of the Prophet's actions(both verbal and otherwise).My examples of why you need a messenger to guide is also relevant. That yes there is always a need to reveal and explain the message of god, and yes.. it is in hadiath that will be people who will continue to revive Islam(not messengers or Prophets) at its various stages. Again, the example of the Ace is there for that very reason.. just as there are people who excel in their fields and are counted as examples..there are those who will excel in their spirituality and act as revivalists. It is also why I included the example of the counter theory of aircombat.. that in reality there will always be people who claim to be on the right path but at the end that is for time to show who was right..or in the spiritual concepts..god. However, the best way to discern any such false claims is to return to the Quran... to corroborate any discrepancies.. which is a part of the Science of Hadiath..when in doubt.. refer to the Quran... which will decide who is vindicated or who is not.
If you do really look into the Hadiath.. there is always Corroboration with the Quran. So if there is 1,2,3 bullet points.. the accurate Hadiath only explain those bullet points or give an example of it.

So yes, it is a piece of history rather than holy revelation.. but at the same time, it is a piece of history(corroborated to a fairly accurate extent unless forcefull focus on the exception rather than the usual is taken) relating to the messenger of god and not caesar or other figureheads. Not an extension of faith, but an explanation of it. There is a difference between the two.

 

[Mitro]

I think we are currently living in the time of gog and magog ,they are not creature as some people think they are human being like us but their character are bad they spread corruption and we see the proof of that around us .

There is a clear ahadees about them getting released from their captivity by allah by destroying the barrier made by zulkarnain which is mention in quran.

A company of bless shahaba did find the barrier broken in caucasen mountain
And we caucasian people every where in europe and america .

Only shia islam believe that imam mehdi is hidden not ahle sunnat wal jamat . We believe that he will be born in medina .his parents name will be same as the name of bless parents of holy prophet of allah Muhammad pbuh

It's like I said in my post on this thread that Dajjal will have 2 eyes, his one eye will be fine &amp; the other will look like as if he is blind by that eye but he can see through that eye, that eye will be grass green in color &amp; there will be a layer on his eye thin like our nails.

Now Gog &amp; magog. Hadees Al Qudsi "A power so great that none but I can destroy them"

This is a topic that needs debate because the Scholars have two stories, one is that Gog &amp; Magog were released in the time of Prophet Mohammed (P.B.U.H) &amp; they (Scholars) call US &amp; Russia Gog &amp; Magog, which I don't believe in.

Second is (which I believe) that Gog &amp; Magog are still inside the Iron mountain or barrier build by Dhul Qarnayn, this video should help to answer your question.

This another video which I am posting here is for @Oscar &amp; everybody else who wants to watch it "The end times &amp; the Mahdi"

I hope it helped those who are confused &amp; there are some who say that Imam Mahdi already came long before which is not true, today the Muslims around the world are praying &amp; asking help from ALLAH to save them from those who are killing them, Imam Mahdi will come to help the Muslims &amp; he will be the true leader who will lead the Muslims till Hazrat Essa (A.S) arrives.

Coming to your last question on Fitna.

The word fitna comes from an Arabic verb which means to "seduce, tempt, or lure." There are many shades of meaning, mostly referring to a feeling of disorder or unrest.

Variations of the word fitna are found throughout the Quran to describe the trials and temptations that may face the believers. The term has also been used to describe divisions which occurred in the early years of the Muslim community.

In modern usage, it is used to describe forces that cause controversy, fragmentation, scandal, chaos, or discord within the Muslim community, disturbing social peace and order.

I hope what I said &amp; shared helped, if there is any other question please do ask &amp; I will try my best to answer or if I have knowledge of it INSHAALLAH I will try to answer the question in best possible way.

 

[Armstrong]

@Oscar

I never said that we should never 'read' the Hadith or never consult them altogether ! We should to get an idea of the culture, people & the events of those times to make a 'conjecture' about History without attributing them to God or His Prophet (PBUH) ! But at the same time one can remember that History isn't immune to the influences of the ruling classes & the desires of the prevailing clergy of that time - Hence why even the History, forget about the religious traditions, of Sunnis & Shias are so different about those times !

At any rate if the Prophet (PBUH) & His Companions thought that the Hadith were needed to understand the Koran because the Book is ambiguous in its meaning than surely they would've started this Hadhith Collection back then as it eventually happened with the Koran as opposed to the Hadith taking a codified form nearly 200 years later when the land was soaked in sectarian wars & the Caliphate had devolved into a shameless monarchy !

Surely one might even be justified in asking what is the purpose of separating the 'Koran' from the 'Hadith' if one needs the latter to understand the former ? Surely either the Prophet (PBUH) would've impressed upon his companions to be Hafiz-ul-Hadith as well as being Hafiz-ul-Koran, surely one of the Caliphs would've compiled the Book of Hadiths when they thought about compiling the Book of Koran or perhaps even God Himself would've talked about the need to consult the Hadith to understand the Koran within the Koran itself ?

Is all of that purely coincidental ?

And then theres the very nature of Hadith which has been discussed ad nauseam ! You continue to be fixated on a few 'weak Hadith' whereas I'm talking about not the Hadhith that go against the Koran but the Hadhith who add to the Koran - The one on adultery being the clearest example of it !

If the punishment for adultery was anything more than the one prescribed in the Koran than one of two things follow :

(i) the Koran is incomplete because it didn't mention the whole process of stoning for adultery nor did it talk about a differentiation between the married & the unmarried individuals accused of adultery !

(ii) the Hadith are part of the religious tradition thereby implying that it wasn't One Scripture that Our Prophet (PBUH) came with but Multiple Scriptures including those of the Hadith which incidentally are not only fraught with inconsistencies, hearsay & were compiled over a 150 years after our Prophet 's (PBUH) death but also have glaring similarities with what the Jews & the Christians did where Oral Traditions cropped up to support the Scriptures that were sent to them with the end result being as evident as it is in theirs & our case !

Furthermore the Ace-Analogy would imply that each generation would need 'someone' to tell us what the heck was the previous generation talking about ! That the words of Boyd (or whatever his name was) were actually meant to be 'thus' instead of the meaning that you're taking them to be.

That sounds remarkably similar to the concept of Immamate on one hand or that of the Ahmedi concept of another prophet on the other !

What we could also argue is that we need the Hadith to understand the Koran than what about needing 'something' or 'someone' to understand the Hadith ? Surely something that was written 1200 or so years ago suffers from the same inadequacies in being self-explanatory as that which is written 1400 years ago. One might even argue that whereas there is a consensus on what the Koran is there is next to no consensus on what the so-called Sahih Hadith are with one huge faction of the Muslim Community even refusing to recognize Hadiths attributed to a certain group of people & even when it comes to the so-called Sahih Hadith there are different wordings to the same Sahih Hadith with minor omissions & additions to them - None of which is present in the Koran !

Which means essentially we're trying to understand the Koran through the prism of a source fraught with problems without even asking ourselves whether we need another source to understand the aforementioned source to beginwith ?

Maybe an ecclesiastical order or maybe another prophet ?

But because I find no justification in the Koran for :

(i) Using the Hadith to understand the Koran

(ii) There being an ecclesiastical order in Islam

(iii) Another prophet coming after our Prophet (PBUH)

(iv) Any commandment in the Koran to the effect of relating to the People the Hadith as opposed to it being mentioned numerous times the need to relate the Koran to the People !

I don't know where or how this web is being weaved ?

Because it certainly isn't supported by the Koran nor by human logic !

' @Hyperion @LoveIcon

 

[Sinnerman108]

Ah @Oscar

I a disappointed.
Another Ghazali !

@tarrar what you are saying breaks God's tradition. The sign can not be explicit.

 

[tarrar]

Ah @Oscar

I a disappointed.
Another Ghazali !

@tarrar what you are saying breaks God's tradition. The sign can not be explicit.

I will say that you do research & meet proper scholars to discuss this issue.