Zionist and Hezbollah/Lebanon War 2006: The Role of Tunnels and Bunkers

[A1Kaid]

Some of you have mentioned and asked how would you concider this an Hesbollah victory. Look first of all Israeli object wasn't just to eliminate the whole of hesbollah as they are a guerilla force and its impossible to do so, what their objective was to get those soldiers back. Whats sad is that they tried to do that through eliminating Hesbollah. Large parts of the Lebanese civilian infrastructure were destroyed, including 400 miles (640 km) of roads, 73 bridges, and 31 other targets such as Beirut's Rafic Hariri International Airport, ports, water and sewage treatment plants, electrical facilities, 25 fuel stations, 900 commercial structures, up to 350 schools and two hospitals, and 15,000 homes. Some 130,000 more homes were damaged.

- On 26 July 2006 Israeli forces attacked and destroyed an UN observer post. Described as a nondeliberate attack by Israel, the post was shelled for hours before being bombed. UN forces made repeated calls to alert Israeli forces of the danger to the UN observers, all four of whom were killed. Rescuers were shelled as they attempted to reach the post, and I am very sure there was a Canadian peace officer in there as one of the casulties.

What the Hesbollahs objective was to get some of the prisioners back from Israel, and they succeded in doing so.

So if you look it at that way the Hesbollah won, and even if you don't wana say that, we/any one would say that Israel failed and normally thats concidered a victory for the other team.

And now millitarily, during the war Total Israeli lost were 163 and out of that 120 were IDF soldiers. I greatly respect how Hesbollah targeted and tried to keep the collateral damage down. On the Other hand, Israel killed 1400 Lebaneese, out of whome 30% were childeren under the age of 13 (UNICEF), Hesbollah lost about 280 fighters all due to the mass cluster bombing.

Many defence analyst suggested that during actualy combat where IDF engaged the Hesbollah, the IDF was sometimes out gunned and out tactic but never out numbered. This clearly shows that Hesbollah had recieved better training, and other nations were envolved. Its like getting the legular infantry to fight against air borne, you know whos gonna come out on top, the air borne as they are better equiped and better trained.

Hey thanks for the good information. I also want to point out even the Jews themselves consider it a defeat.

 

[Sgt Automatic]

Hey thanks for the good information. I also want to point out even the Jews themselves consider it a defeat.

Not a problem. Thanks for starting this forum, this will clear many things about how Israel opperates.

By the way just cause Israel did this to Palestine, we should not generalize Jews as bad people, infact I have some very close friends who are jewish and they always sympathize with the Palestinein. The real problem is the Zionists, who are using jewish religion as a scape goat, just like Al-Qaeda is using Islam and Neo Cons are using Christianity.

There are always a few bad eggs in a basket, but most are good eggs, worthy of a nice little omelet, hmmm... great now I am hungry.

 

[Kasrkin]

This was obviously not to mean that the Arab world combined to put up Hezbollah. It states the obvious fact that no Arab nations that spend billions and billions on the latest arms (many times more than Israel) have dared to fight Israel and left the job for the likes of Hizbollah and Hamas.

Which is exactly why Hezbollah’s 'victory' and daring is seen greater in contrast. What does this have to do with your claim that there was no gain for Hezbollah in the war BTW?

What I meant (and you know that) is that there are people who will be satisfied with nothing less than the utter destruction of Israel. For them this incident may add to their supposed reasons, nothing more.

Yes and what I said was, very clearly, that 'destroying a nation' is exactly the sort of thing that gives credibility and popularity to these people and their point of view...which is probably the single most important factor through which organizations such as Hezbollah draw their strength from; popular support. Therefore we reach the simple conclusion that Hezbollah (Anti-Israeli force) gained from the war whereas the Israelis achieved none of their claimed objectives.

Those who hate them, mainly do so just for existing. The Arabs wanted to throw them in the sea in the 1948 and other wars. That was the term openly used.

Yeah, and now the only difference is that their numbers will swell along with their ideology.

Hizbollah's popularity may have grown. What has it achieved for anyone?

You mean other than Hezbollah?

 

[Vinod2070]

Which is exactly why Hezbollah’s 'victory' and daring is seen greater in contrast. What does this have to do with your claim that there was no gain for Hezbollah in the war BTW?

The definition of their "victory" is nothing but a Pyrrhic victory. How can a war that was fought entirely on Lebanese soil, in which the country's infrastructure is destroyed and civilians faced massive disruption in their lives be a "victory"! Unless mere survival is called a victory!

Yes, Israel did not achieve it's stated goals and to that extent they "lost", but I don't see what anyone gained! Has the Palestine issue moved an inch because of the Hizbollah victory? Does any other Arab country now think they can take on Israel now? What exactly has been achieved?

Let us be more specific about the exact gains accrued to Lebanon, Palestine or the Arab world in general from this conflict.

Yes and what I said was, very clearly, that 'destroying a nation' is exactly the sort of thing that gives credibility and popularity to these people and their point of view...which is probably the single most important factor through which organizations such as Hezbollah draw their strength from; popular support. Therefore we reach the simple conclusion that Hezbollah (Anti-Israeli force) gained from the war whereas the Israelis achieved none of their claimed objectives.

I agree with the first part. These actions on Israel's part fuel more hatreds. In many cases the hatred is unquenchable and doesn't need much more than mere existence of the country!

The second statement of Hizbollah's gain doesn't necessarily follow from the first. I don't see what they gained that has been of any benefit to anyone. They may have some more cadre and some more rockets.

What next!

Yeah, and now the only difference is that their numbers will swell along with their ideology.

You mean other than Hezbollah?

Hizbollah is fighting for some aims, right?

 

[Sgt Automatic]

The definition of their "victory" is nothing but a Pyrrhic victory. How can a war that was fought entirely on Lebanese soil, in which the country's infrastructure is destroyed and civilians faced massive disruption in their lives be a "victory"! Unless mere survival is called a victory!

Yes, Israel did not achieve it's stated goals and to that extent they "lost", but I don't see what anyone gained! Has the Palestine issue moved an inch because of the Hizbollah victory? Does any other Arab country now think they can take on Israel now? What exactly has been achieved?

Let us be more specific about the exact gains accrued to Lebanon, Palestine or the Arab world in general from this conflict.



I agree with the first part. These actions on Israel's part fuel more hatreds. In many cases the hatred is unquenchable and doesn't need much more than mere existence of the country!

The second statement of Hizbollah's gain doesn't necessarily follow from the first. I don't see what they gained that has been of any benefit to anyone. They may have some more cadre and some more rockets.

What next!



Hizbollah is fighting for some aims, right?

With all due respect Mr V, look the Palestinian people are used to getting their shart blowed to pieces already so those people are used to such incursions especially near border areas. So the little operation by the Hesbollah, was a success not because the hesbollah survived but because they were...

1. Able to release some of their old prisoners from Israel
2. Were able to show the real face of the Israel, and gain respect
3. Gained local support
4. Give a very serious blow to the Israel who were usually used to getting stones thorwn at them.

Like I said earlier, if the Israeli goal was to kill as many Innocent Palestinian people, than they definatly succeeded. I mean come one 1100 to 43 Israeli civilians dead, absolutly disgusting.

But it wasn't the "official" objective of the war, instead it was to get those soldiers back. Did they succeed, no those soldiers were only returned after the exchange of prisioners. So even if you don't have enough respect to say the hesbollah won that war, Israel lost, and usually in the normal world its concidered a victory for the other team.

 

[Vinod2070]

With all due respect Mr V, look the Palestinian people are used to getting their shart blowed to pieces already so those people are used to such incursions especially near border areas. So the little operation by the Hesbollah, was a success not because the hesbollah survived but because they were...

1. Able to release some of their old prisoners from Israel
2. Were able to show the real face of the Israel, and gain respect
3. Gained local support
4. Give a very serious blow to the Israel who were usually used to getting stones thorwn at them.

Like I said earlier, if the Israeli goal was to kill as many Innocent Palestinian people, than they definatly succeeded. I mean come one 1100 to 43 Israeli civilians dead, absolutly disgusting.

But it wasn't the "official" objective of the war, instead it was to get those soldiers back. Did they succeed, no those soldiers were only returned after the exchange of prisioners. So even if you don't have enough respect to say the hesbollah won that war, Israel lost, and usually in the normal world its concidered a victory for the other team.

The term for such a victory is "Pyrrhic victory".

The other side may have "lost" but the price was not worth paying!

 

[Sgt Automatic]

The term for such a victory is "Pyrrhic victory".

The other side may have "lost" but the price was not worth paying!

Pyrrhic victory; defination for those lazy bugs out there!
A victory that is won by incurring terrible losses

Sure they had to make those sacrifices, but victory is still a victory. Infact if we put this war in relation to Vietnam. Just like Vietnam, the support for the guirrila faction goes up as the collateral damages mount, so hesbollah won in every aspect of the war. What is really sad is that the world got to see the true face of the Israel, and how they used cluster bombs amid highly urbanized areas.

So I suppose even the Hesbollah didn't see that kind of destruction coming, but despite that they reached their goal. Its kind of like this..., lets say two factions are fighting, faction A vs B. After some combat, faction A loses are far more than B, but if B surrenders, its a victory for the A.

Its absolutly disgusting how the Israeli inteligence looks at the Palestinian life value, its less than that of an animal.

 

[BanglaBhoot]

"Your doubts are well founded, but if we win this war, and defeat the Arabs, history will remember us as the victors, and in history, once a community is known as the victors, it forgets how many eggs they ate and how many times they had food. Whether there was jam, honey, butter on the table, and how many holes they had in their shoes. Or whether the sheaths of their swords were new or old! A conqueror is a conqueror."

Golda Meir

 

[BanglaBhoot]

"I got this logic from the Prophet Mohammad. When I was a student, my favorite topic was comparative study of religions. Those I studied the life of Mohammad. One author stated that when Prophet Mohammad died, there was not enough money to buy oil for a lamp, his wife mortgaged his battle shield to buy oil, yet there was nine swords hung on the wall of his house. When I read this account, it occurred to me how many people in the world would have known about the worst economic condition of the Islamic State? But everyone recognizes them as conquerors of half the world. So I decided I would by arms at any cost; even if we should starve or to live in camps instead of buildings, but we should prove ourselves the victor"

Golda Meir

 

[BanglaBhoot]

I think both quotes of Golda Meir apply to the discussion at hand.

 

[Vinod2070]

Pyrrhic victory; defination for those lazy bugs out there!
A victory that is won by incurring terrible losses

Sure they had to make those sacrifices, but victory is still a victory. Infact if we put this war in relation to Vietnam. Just like Vietnam, the support for the guirrila faction goes up as the collateral damages mount, so hesbollah won in every aspect of the war. What is really sad is that the world got to see the true face of the Israel, and how they used cluster bombs amid highly urbanized areas.

So I suppose even the Hesbollah didn't see that kind of destruction coming, but despite that they reached their goal. Its kind of like this..., lets say two factions are fighting, faction A vs B. After some combat, faction A loses are far more than B, but if B surrenders, its a victory for the A.

Its absolutly disgusting how the Israeli inteligence looks at the Palestinian life value, its less than that of an animal.

I understand your POV exactly.

The point I am making is that there was such a vast difference in what constitutes victory for the two sides. We both understand that difference.

And I don't agree that Israel lost far more than Hizbollah or Lebanon. But even those losses were not acceptable, anything less than outright victory was not acceptable!

Because the bar had been set so low for the Hizbollah, we can say they "won". It would be like winning with a very big handicap, one can claim victory but to neutral observers it may not seem a victory.

 

[Sgt Automatic]

I understand your POV exactly.

The point I am making is that there was such a vast difference in what constitutes victory for the two sides. We both understand that difference.

And I don't agree that Israel lost far more than Hizbollah or Lebanon. But even those losses were not acceptable, anything less than outright victory was not acceptable!

Because the bar had been set so low for the Hizbollah, we can say they "won". It would be like winning with a very big handicap, one can claim victory but to neutral observers it may not seem a victory.

I don't think you are wrong about, how you precive the results of that war. I don't think one can be exactly right or wrong, the results and gains are sort of in the grey.

The reason I say that Hesbollah won is because they achived their objective, and Israel didn't. Its just that simple, I really don't know why you keep saying that from the neutral point of view it wouldn't be concived as a Hesbollah victory. What do you mean by the outright victory, that those civillians should'nt have died. There is always collateral damage, but Israel too it to the max. It was an out right victory for Hesbollah because they got what they wanted, returning of hundereds of prisoners. Isreal lost because they had to comply with Hesbollahs demands. What they did to Lebanons infrastructer was utterly bulling, a work of a juvenile government.

I would change that last statement, "to neutral observers it may not seem a victory" to "to pro-israeli observer it may not seem a victory". That talk show posted in the first video is not even entirly neutral as they are in US which is an ally of Israel and still you should watch their views towards who won and who lost.

Any how bud.

 

[Vinod2070]

I don't think you are wrong about, how you precive the results of that war. I don't think one can be exactly right or wrong, the results and gains are sort of in the grey.

The reason I say that Hesbollah won is because they achived their objective, and Israel didn't. Its just that simple, I really don't know why you keep saying that from the neutral point of view it wouldn't be concived as a Hesbollah victory. What do you mean by the outright victory, that those civillians should'nt have died. There is always collateral damage, but Israel too it to the max. It was an out right victory for Hesbollah because they got what they wanted, returning of hundereds of prisoners. Isreal lost because they had to comply with Hesbollahs demands. What they did to Lebanons infrastructer was utterly bulling, a work of a juvenile government.

I would change that last statement, "to neutral observers it may not seem a victory" to "to pro-israeli observer it may not seem a victory". That talk show posted in the first video is not even entirly neutral as they are in US which is an ally of Israel and still you should watch their views towards who won and who lost.

Any how bud.

I think we can both see each other's POV and that calls for

If the whole war was only about the release of prisoners, Hizbollah did achieve their goals and Israel didn't. Only you can assess if the prize was worth it. Can you honestly say that Hizbollah did not know what was coming? Was the price worth paying? Did they care for the human suffering (and I would agree that Israel didn't)? It was the Lebanese people and nation that suffered because of that war, not Israelis.

If there was a larger goal, I don't see how it has been advanced.

 

[S-2]

The war was a victory for Hezbollah (POG). POG maintained itself as a force in being while gaining primacy in the internal politics of Lebanon. It did not advance it's cause where it most matters, though, and while it was strenghtened locally/regionally, it is likely diminished by the elevation of scrutiny directed it's way.

There will be another go-around. There must be as the issues remain unsettled and war against Israel is POG's raison d'etre. Without confrontational posturing, POG serves little useful purpose to it's political masters in Damascus and Teheran. The next war will be fought differently on a variety of fronts to include the informational battlefield.

The Israeli military is a dynamic organization couched in a learning/adaptive ethos. There were considerable lessons-learned and the next round may prove instructive to that end.

Here's an analysis from the U.S. Army's Combat Studies Institute-

We Were Caught Unprepared: The 2006 Hezbollah-Israeli War

I had to laugh at A1Kaid's video. Much of the footage from the video cameras came from 1993- hardly the war. It was propaganda, and not particularly good at that. THAT, too, will likely improve.

 

[A1Kaid]

The war was a victory for Hezbollah (POG). POG maintained itself as a force in being while gaining primacy in the internal politics of Lebanon. It did not advance it's cause where it most matters, though, and while it was strenghtened locally/regionally, it is likely diminished by the elevation of scrutiny directed it's way.

There will be another go-around. There must be as the issues remain unsettled and war against Israel is POG's raison d'etre. Without confrontational posturing, POG serves little useful purpose to it's political masters in Damascus and Teheran. The next war will be fought differently on a variety of fronts to include the informational battlefield.

The Israeli military is a dynamic organization couched in a learning/adaptive ethos. There were considerable lessons-learned and the next round may prove instructive to that end.

Here's an analysis from the U.S. Army's Combat Studies Institute-

We Were Caught Unprepared: The 2006 Hezbollah-Israeli War

I had to laugh at A1Kaid's video. Much of the footage from the video cameras came from 1993- hardly the war. It was propaganda, and not particularly good at that. THAT, too, will likely improve.

Allow me to clarify and enlighten for those in the darkness of ignorance. The video I posted is ONE not my video, TWO it is simply a video about Hezbollah throughout the YEARS not specifically the Zionist/Israel Hezbollah/Lebanon War (though I'm sure there is footage of that to in there).

P.S if anyone wants to see some amazing Real Battle footage from the War of 2006 just post your request here.

SNIPER ON THE ROOF!!!