Zhuhai Air Show 2014 - Updates & Discussions

[PakEye]

Sorry, but following this interview the PAF will not purchase the FC-31 ! Sadly ....Sadly I'm so far not allowed to post the link here :-(

please read last answer of Col Amir
Question : Do you think the Pakistan Air Force in the future the possibility of cooperation in use "Fierce Dragon" fighter, the introduction of the F-31 it?
Ans: Colonel Aamir: I think it is very possible that Pakistan aircraft research and development, there are many places to learn from China.

 

[he-man]

If they could, then they would have long done it. Giving they had this problem for a long time now, and have been trying to build one for a longg time. So as i said, not everything can be copied(thats if they are indeed trying to copy it). Its simply impossible to copy an engine, you can get some ideas/learn from one, but you cant really replicate it completely(not a fighter jet engine). So if they indeed suceed in building a reliable one, then i dont think its a result of blatantly copying. there must be other reasons for this.

They have done it dude,,most of their fighters are flying with ws engines which are easily spotted from al-31 due to material difference.

Its a combination of industrial level espionage,reverse engineering,innovation and lot of money

For ur knowledge russians made al41 producing 180 kn 16 years back,,but it was too heavy.

 

[mike2000]

Don't be so confident China can't match the west in jet engine production, China invest 5 billions dollar to develop the core engine, China jet engine will eventually mature with time, money, human resource invest into building their engine. Every nation go through the long process to develop jet engine. Even US and Russia mature engine caught fire on f35 and su50 while took off from the runway.

lool thats why i said even if the Chinese indeed suceed in finally building a reliable/tested one, then it wont be because of copying, since its simply impossible to copy a fighter jet engine.A fighter jet engine is not like other military systems which albeit difficult/complex, can still be copied. Engine is the most complex technology to master,. that is why i was also saying in another thread to some indian members on here, that there is no way a country will ever transfer you their engine tech NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU PAY FOR IT. Its simply the crown jewel of any country/industry, so its guarded very secretly..

 

[PakEye]

They have done it dude,,most of their fighters are flying with ws engines which are easily spotted from al-31 due to material difference.
Its a combination of industrial level espionage,reverse engineering,innovation and lot of money
For ur knowledge russians made al41 producing 180 kn 16 years back,,but it was too heavy.

too heavy ????

 

[Steakhouse]

lool thats why i said even if the Chinese indeed suceed in finally building a reliable/tested one, then it wont be because of copying, since its simply impossible to copy a fighter jet engine.A fighter jet engine is not like other military systems which albeit difficult/complex, can still be copied. Engine is the most complex technology to master,. that is why i was also saying in another thread to some indian members on here, that there is no way a country will ever transfer you their engine tech NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU PAY FOR IT. Its simply the crown jewel of any country/industry, so its guarded very secretly..

Of course no nation will hand over jet engine to anyone, jet engine is the heart for the jet to fly, without a mature reliable engine to power the aircraft, all the fancy 5th generation jet just become a paper airplane and will never take off from the runway. Every nation intend to build a fighter need to develop their core jet engine and not totally depend on import engine from other nation.

 

[mike2000]

They have done it dude,,most of their fighters are flying with ws engines which are easily spotted from al-31 due to material difference.

Its a combination of industrial level espionage,reverse engineering,innovation and lot of money

For ur knowledge russians made al41 producing 180 kn 16 years back,,but it was too heavy.

See? thats exactly why i said even if they did(which as you said they seem to have done to some extent), its not really as a result of copying. industrial espionage is being carried out by all major powers in this world( thats those that have the capabilities) first of which is the U.S who has by far the largest spying/industrial espionnage capabilities on planet earth(they have been doing to us in the E.U as well, just like snowden revalations revealed, we also do it to them as well to be honest.) no country even comes close to the U.S on this, reverse engineering(and even copying) has been done by several other powers on planet earth for ages. just like after the end of the world war II, the German Me 262 aircraft were extensively studied by the victorious allies and contributed to work on early Soviet and US jet fighters, whivh helped them tremendously in getting ahead of others. Also our engines also were licensed widely in the US. Our most famous design, the Nene also powered the USSR's jet aircraft after a technology exchange. American designs only came fully into their own until the 1960s. So we(together with the germans) were one of the pioneers/leaders in this field.(british flag). So every country has to start from somewhere, it doesnt matter how you get there, as far as you get there. the end always justifies the means. After few years/decades, everybody forgets you ever relied on others/lagged behind, just like us and the U.S today.

 

[he-man]

See? thats exactly why i said even if they did(which as you said they seem to have done to some extent), its not really as a result of copying. industrial espionage is being carried out by all major powers in this world( thats those that have the capabilities) first of which is the U.S who has by far the largest spying/industrial espionnage capabilities on planet earth(they have been doing to us in the E.U as well, just like snowden revalations revealed, we also do it to them as well to be honest.) no country even comes close to the U.S on this, reverse engineering(and even copying) has been done by several other powers on planet earth for ages. just like after the end of the world war II, the German Me 262 aircraft were extensively studied by the victorious allies and contributed to work on early Soviet and US jet fighters, whivh helped them tremendously in getting ahead of others. Also our engines also were licensed widely in the US. Their most famous design, the Nene also powered the USSR's jet aircraft after a technology exchange. American designs only came fully into their own until the 1960s. So we(together with the germans) were one of the pioneers/leaders in this field.(british flag). So every country has to start from somewhere, it doesnt matter how you get there, as far as you get there. the end always justifies the means. After few years/decades, everybody forgets you ever relied on others/lagged behind, just like us and the U.S.

World changes constantly man.
And right now its changing fast.

I am not saying they will beat everyone but its a start,,,,,the amount of human resource available in asia is tremendous at the moment.If channeled properly for next 20-30 years things will change

 

[j20blackdragon]

 

[Steakhouse]

See? thats exactly why i said even if they did(which as you said they seem to have done to some extent), its not really as a result of copying. industrial espionage is being carried out by all major powers in this world( thats those that have the capabilities) first of which is the U.S who has by far the largest spying/industrial espionnage capabilities on planet earth(they have been doing to us in the E.U as well, just like snowden revalations revealed, we also do it to them as well to be honest.) no country even comes close to the U.S on this, reverse engineering(and even copying) has been done by several other powers on planet earth for ages. just like after the end of the world war II, the German Me 262 aircraft were extensively studied by the victorious allies and contributed to work on early Soviet and US jet fighters, whivh helped them tremendously in getting ahead of others. Also our engines also were licensed widely in the US. Their most famous design, the Nene also powered the USSR's jet aircraft after a technology exchange. American designs only came fully into their own until the 1960s. So we(together with the germans) were one of the pioneers/leaders in this field.(british flag). So every country has to start from somewhere, it doesnt matter how you get there, as far as you get there. the end always justifies the means. After few years/decades, everybody forgets you ever relied on others/lagged behind, just like us and the U.S.

Reverse engineering just mean learn from your peer with more yrs of experience compare to you, majorities of engineering understand the basic concept but in a development phase will encounter complex problem push the development behind the schedule, single component place in different angle or position can negatively affect the performance of the engine. If you able to reverse engineering the mature design, you then cut down the money, time in spending on development phase by reduce the chance of failure through the trail and error developing process.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Don't be so confident China can't match the west in jet engine production, China invest 5 billions dollar to develop the core engine, China jet engine will eventually mature with time, money, human resource invest into building their engine. Every nation go through the long process to develop jet engine. Even US and Russia mature engine caught fire on f35 and su50 while took off from the runway.

You need more skillful workers to pop up the production of the jet engines.

During the early induction of WS-10, we were facing this problem; some mass produced engines didn't match the quality of the testing prototype. Because we didn't have many skillful workers in this domain.

When an unexperienced worker made a mistake of 1mm of discrepancy, then the engine will lose at least 10% of performance, and something worse could even happen as well.

I say now we have by far more skillful jet engine assembly workers than a decade ago, but still not enough to match our goal for the air force modernization, that's why we are still using some Russian AL-31F engines for the substitution.

 

[Penguin]

2014 ZhuHai Air Show - ZhuHai Airport Photos (from left to right) ... ths 傻根儿

View attachment 150516

I'm struck by how similar the wing of the new PLAAF cargo jet is to that of the Il-76

 

[cnleio]

Dosen't matter when they are out,,,point is performance.\
Copying al-31f will give u al-31f only which is 30 year old tech.

Sure india is even behind china in this atleast 8-10 years

Let me tell a little truth here, no any offence ... ur LCA developed 30 years and mass production only means 40x purchased by IAF ... ur domestic jet engine didn't installed on any IAF fighter yet ... do u really believe india just behind China at least 8-10 years ???

1. China J-10A and J-11A/B fighter mass produce : 250x & 200x
2. China next-gen stealth fighter J-20 and FC-31 flying : 3 & 2 years
3. China domestic WS-10A jet engines had served in PLAAF's J-11A/B fighters

If Indian can catch up China above achievements within next 10years, i do trust ur words.

 

[he-man]

Let me tell a little truth here, no any offence ... ur LCA developed 30 years and mass production only means 40x purchased by IAF ... ur domestic jet engine didn't installed on any IAF fighter yet ... do u really believe india just behind China at least 8-10 years ???

1. China J-10A and J-11A/B fighter mass produce : 250x & 200x
2. China next-gen stealth fighter J-20 and FC-31 flying : 3 & 2 years
3. China domestic WS-10A jet engines had served in PLAAF's J-11A/B fighters

If Indian can catch up China above achievements within next 10years, i do trust ur words.

View attachment 150607
View attachment 150606

The difference between me and u is i am not writing without thinking.Check the last 3 pages of debate and stop bashing lca with same old stupid claims.

And yes as far as engines are concerned 10 year would be a reasonable gap between india and china.Kaveri may not be perfect but it works,as a matter of fact its a variable cycle engine at that.

 

[he-man]

I'm struck by how similar the wing of the new PLAAF cargo jet is to that of the Il-76

And u are surprised??

 

[Beast]

The difference between me and u is i am not writing without thinking.Check the last 3 pages of debate and stop bashing lca with same old stupid claims.

And yes as far as engines are concerned 10 year would be a reasonable gap between india and china.Kaveri may not be perfect but it works,as a matter of fact its a variable cycle engine at that.

It can't even install on aircraft to power them, how can u claim Kaveri will work.