Z-10 or T-129 Atak or AH-1Z for the Pakistan Army?

[帅的一匹]

any details on price ?

The selling price to PA will around 6-8 millions per....maybe
To other country for export minimum 1o millions USD above.

 

[A.Rafay]

Wz 10 would be a better choice.

 

[帅的一匹]

T-129 selling price to turkey is 30 millions USD per. I'm saying that WZ-10 is not the best among many other choices but the most cost-effective one to go for! Most importantly, no string will be pulled in the future. Let wait and see WZ-10A, might be the improved version with Longbow like radar with more shaft power to export PA. China always make customized version for Pakistan, just like the case of FC20.

 

[Edevelop]

WZ-10:

 

[Luftwaffe]

WZ-10 is New but the program itself is 12 years old. T-129 has major Turkish inputs thus I see T-129 and Z-10 on the same page it will all come down to Price. But I think as posted before due to non availability of Funds deal did not go through for T-129s but it is available for sale once Pak Army has the Funds. On the other hand Chinese can clinch the market if it sell Z-10s for soft loans.

wanglaokan, T-129 is around $35M when purchasing the up font price is not considered but the total over the life time costs so a T-129 could be as much as $50-$55M.

Pak Army will stick to upgrading current Fleet of AH-1s and purchase new variant. Anything new will only be considered when big cash is in hand.

 

[monitor]

Add a poll bro!

T-129 will be a more mature and advanced platform IMO.
But sanction prone. WZ 10 will be a good and safe option IMO.

Its almost having 80% Turkish component so i don't think its going to be sanction pron .
From cabalti

TAI has rights to charge a foreign institute to make some production under the licence. It is offered for S. Korea and possible for Pakistan as well...

It is true that There is only one manufacturing line for T-129 Atak-A,B,C,D...etc in World. It is in TAI, Ankara, Turkey. Exporting to All World excludig Italy and UK is only in papper. TAI offered T-129 Atak-A to Italian army last year but It is rejected and gone to an upgrade program for older A-129 CBT instead of ordering Atak..

 

[SLR722]

PA wont choose any of these only on performance basis. There are many factors that favor the induction of WZ-10 over T-129.
WZ-10 is relatively cheap. T-129 might be better than WZ-10, but it's more prone to sanctions and it will keep PA's dependence on west.
If army is planning of getting new attack helicopter then i think WZ-10 is much better.(plus it is just the start of WZ-10, we may see newer version on WZ-10 in future)

 

[trident2010]

Specifications: T-129

General characteristics

Crew: 2: pilot and co-pilot/gunner
Length: 14.6 m (47 ft 11 in)
Rotor diameter: 11.90 m (39 ft 0 in)
Height: 3.4 m (11 ft 2 in)
Disc area: 111.22 m² (1,197.25 ft²)
Max. takeoff weight: 5,000 kg (11,023 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × LHTEC CTS800-4A turboshaft, 1,014 kW (1,361 shp) each
Rotor systems: 5 blades on main rotor

Performance

Cruise speed: 269 km/h (145 knots, 167 mph)
Range: 561 km (303 nmi, 341 mi)
Ferry range: 1,000 km (540 nmi, 620 mi)
Service ceiling: 6,096 m (20,000 ft)
Rate of climb: 14.0 m/s (2,750 ft/min)

Armament

Guns: 1× 20 mm (0.787 in) three-barrel gatling-type cannon (500 rounds)
Rockets: 4 pods with
38× 81 mm (3.19 in) unguided rockets or
76× 70 mm (2.75 in) unguided rockets or
12.7 mm (0.50 in) machine gun-pod

Missiles:

8× AGM-114 Hellfire, BGM-71 TOW, Hydra 70, Spike-ER, UMTAS, Roketsan Cirit anti-tank and anti-armor missiles and Sura D/Snora.
4-8× AIM-92 Stinger or Mistral or AIM-9 Sidewinder anti-aircraft missiles


Specifications: WZ10

General characteristics

Crew: 2
Length: 14.15 m (ft)
Rotor diameter: 13.0 m[10] (ft)
Height: 3.85 m (ft)
Empty weight: 5,540 kg[10] (lb)
Loaded weight: 7,000 kg (lb)
Useful load: 1,500 kg[10] (lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 7,000+ kg (lb)
Powerplant: 2 × WZ-9 turboshaft[10], 1000 kw (1350 shp) each

Performance

Maximum speed: 300+ km/h[10]
Cruise speed: 270+ km/h[10]
Range: 800+ km[10] ()
Service ceiling: 6,400 m (ft)
Rate of climb: over 12 m/s[10] (ft/min)

Armament

Guns: 23 mm or 30 mm autocannon mounted on chin turret
Hardpoints: 4
Rockets: 57 mm, 90 mm multi-barrel unguided rocket pods
Missiles:
Up to 8 HJ-10 air to surface / anti tank / anti helicopter missiles
Up to 8 HJ-8, HJ-9 missiles
Up to 8 TY-90 air-to-air missiles
Up to 4 PL-5, PL-7, PL-9 air-to-air missiles

Avionics

YH millimetre-wave fire-control radar
Helmet mounted sight with night vision goggles
BM/KG300G self protection jamming pod
Blue Sky navigation pod
KZ900 reconnaissance pod
YH-96 electronic warfare suite

Souce: wiki

T-129 strength lies on western expertise in combat helicopters, avionics and weapons package.

I myself however think that going with WZ-10 would be a better option for PA/PAF. No sanctions, no US blackmailing and much more customized configuration. WZ-10 is way to go !!

 

[bc040400065]

@ wanglaokan
the unit cost of WZ10 is 2.8 or 28 million? because if its 2.8 then its the cheapest attack heli and PA would order atleast few dozens. but i don't think so it is that much low cost. also whats the unit cost of WZ19?

 

[cabatli_53]

but it's expensive........anyway, i don't think T-129 is better than WZ-10. The unit price of T-129 up to 20 millions plus, while WZ-10 could be provided to PA at brotherhood price.
T-129 is a JV helo of Turkey and Italy, while WZ-10 is fully produced by China.

My friend, Let all performance specifications aside, Oly consider the Power/Weight ratios to calculate the hoursepower to be shared for per tonnes of helicopter.

T-129 Atak: 550hp/tonnes
WZ-10: Around 380 hp/tonnes

Only this result should enlighten you to realize the differences between two helo in terms of payload, performace, rate of climb, high-hot terrain manouvrability...etc


For price, It is for sure that Chinese option will come cheaper than Turkish one. It is almost impossible to compete with China in terms of price at any area but, There should be some differences between Western engineering, subsystem quality, NATO compatibility and workers' prices, When They are compared with China so It is normal.

Besides, There are some standart software, subsystems coming standart with T-129 Atak-B such as moving map, obstacle detection system, AVCI HMDU, Which may increase the price as well.

 

[cabatli_53]

Specifications: T-129

General characteristics

Crew: 2: pilot and co-pilot/gunner
Length: 14.6 m (47 ft 11 in)
Rotor diameter: 11.90 m (39 ft 0 in)
Height: 3.4 m (11 ft 2 in)
Disc area: 111.22 m² (1,197.25 ft²)
Max. takeoff weight: 5,000 kg (11,023 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × LHTEC CTS800-4A turboshaft, 1,014 kW (1,361 shp) each
Rotor systems: 5 blades on main rotor

Performance

Cruise speed: 269 km/h (145 knots, 167 mph)
Range: 561 km (303 nmi, 341 mi)
Ferry range: 1,000 km (540 nmi, 620 mi)
Service ceiling: 6,096 m (20,000 ft)
Rate of climb: 14.0 m/s (2,750 ft/min)

Armament

Guns: 1× 20 mm (0.787 in) three-barrel gatling-type cannon (500 rounds)
Rockets: 4 pods with
38× 81 mm (3.19 in) unguided rockets or
76× 70 mm (2.75 in) unguided rockets or
12.7 mm (0.50 in) machine gun-pod

Missiles:

8× AGM-114 Hellfire, BGM-71 TOW, Hydra 70, Spike-ER, UMTAS, Roketsan Cirit anti-tank and anti-armor missiles and Sura D/Snora.
4-8× AIM-92 Stinger or Mistral or AIM-9 Sidewinder anti-aircraft missiles


Specifications: WZ10

General characteristics

Crew: 2
Length: 14.15 m (ft)
Rotor diameter: 13.0 m[10] (ft)
Height: 3.85 m (ft)
Empty weight: 5,540 kg[10] (lb)
Loaded weight: 7,000 kg (lb)
Useful load: 1,500 kg[10] (lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 7,000+ kg (lb)
Powerplant: 2 × WZ-9 turboshaft[10], 1000 kw (1350 shp) each

Performance

Maximum speed: 300+ km/h[10]
Cruise speed: 270+ km/h[10]
Range: 800+ km[10] ()
Service ceiling: 6,400 m (ft)
Rate of climb: over 12 m/s[10] (ft/min)

Armament

Guns: 23 mm or 30 mm autocannon mounted on chin turret
Hardpoints: 4
Rockets: 57 mm, 90 mm multi-barrel unguided rocket pods
Missiles:
Up to 8 HJ-10 air to surface / anti tank / anti helicopter missiles
Up to 8 HJ-8, HJ-9 missiles
Up to 8 TY-90 air-to-air missiles
Up to 4 PL-5, PL-7, PL-9 air-to-air missiles

Avionics

YH millimetre-wave fire-control radar
Helmet mounted sight with night vision goggles
BM/KG300G self protection jamming pod
Blue Sky navigation pod
KZ900 reconnaissance pod
YH-96 electronic warfare suite

Souce: wiki

T-129 strength lies on western expertise in combat helicopters, avionics and weapons package.

I myself however think that going with WZ-10 would be a better option for PA/PAF. No sanctions, no US blackmailing and much more customized configuration. WZ-10 is way to go !!

Some T-129 parameters are kept hidden by TAI and the specifications(such as munition and AT missile carriage capacity, speed, range...etc) revealed into media/net is the downgraded one...

 

[TR.1]

T129 is tailored for Pakistan needs as similar geography and fighting terorism, the T129 has high service ceiling and can fly high in difficult terrains.

 

[IND151]

a technical question pls answer me. How can a helo weighing 5000kg(empty weight) goes up to 6400m ? While engine power is just 2*1000 kw

I don't think so.

6,400 M=20997.38 feets

LCH has max service ceiling of 20,000 feets with 2 X HAL/Turbomeca Shakti turboshaft (1067 KW each) and has empty weight of 2,700 Kg.

 

[IND151]

T-129:

Its canopy looks slightly like that of MI 28N but overall it looks like LCH

Nice photos

 

[cabatli_53]

Its canopy looks slightly like that of MI 28N but overall it looks like LCH

Nice photos

Latest T129 video revealed...