YF-23 (Black Widow II): will KSA go for it?

[dani958]

so that not prove any thing we may use some mirage tech but nothing from f 16

we have the must advanced defence insustry in meadle east by far thats what metter

 

[Penguin]

Usrael stole the F-16 and the Mirage 2000 designs and pretended to have built it own Lavi fighter.. both the US and France were not happy with it and Usrael was threatened to lose all kind of weapons and other aids, so it had to shelve it.. you just can't compete with someone (even a "friend") on world markets with his stolen design..

It is true that the US didn't like getting competition for the F16 e.g. from Sweden, Japan and Israel and so pressured either these countries or their potential development partners (e.g. Norway)to abandon any dependency relieving alternative to the F16. Lavi has nothing in common with Mirage 2000 and while externally similar to the F16 it is internally a very different design (e.g. not exposing the engine compressor stage forwards by using an inverse S-duct and thus drastically minimizing the frontal cross-sections of IR and radar alike)

However, I do not accept that theft claim unless you can back that up by serious evidence, it is in fact the first time I've heard this proffered as an explanation for the Lavi.

Negating the Israeli capability to design an aircraft like this is folly.

 

[The SC]

It is true that the US didn't like getting competition for the F16 e.g. from Sweden, Japan and Israel and so pressured either these countries or their potential development partners (e.g. Norway)to abandon any dependency relieving alternative to the F16. Lavi has nothing in common with Mirage 2000 and while externally similar to the F16 it is internally a very different design (e.g. not exposing the engine compressor stage forwards by using an inverse S-duct and thus drastically minimizing the frontal cross-sections of IR and radar alike)

However, I do not accept that theft claim unless you can back that up by serious evidence, it is in fact the first time I've heard this proffered as an explanation for the Lavi.

Negating the Israeli capability to design an aircraft like this is folly.

Why they didn't manufacture even a helicopter after that, and what restrains them from designing another aircraft better than the US as it is claimed in your post?
Nothing to do with the Mirage? have you looked at the pics I provided? Delta wing and Canards were from the Mirage 2000 as it was made at about the same time as the US F-16..
Have you heard the story of the KFIR stolen Mirage design that was the first made in Usrael fighter plane? don't tell me you didn't..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1983/1983 - 1330.PDF

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Follow the lines they rarely lie

American F-16 Viper, Deployed in 1978

Israel IAI Lavi B 2, First Flight December 31, 1986

http://www.art-antiques-design.com/design/587-stolen-designs#!


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway what are your thoughts about the subject of the thread.. it will be appreciated to hear them..

 

[Hassan Guy]

KSA never asked for the F-35

http://www.tacticalreport.com/view_news/Saudi_Defence_Ministry_F-15_Silent_Eagle_and_F-35_JSF/2567

 

[dani958]

Why they didn't manufacture even a helicopter after that, and what restrains them from designing another aircraft better than the US as it is claimed in your post?
Nothing to do with the Mirage? have you looked at the pics I provided? Delta wing and Canards were from the Mirage 2000 as it was made at about the same time as the US F-16..
Have you heard the story of the KFIR stolen Mirage design that was the first made in Usrael fighter plane? don't tell me you didn't..

because its too expensive for us we small economy
and we get for free from usa we focus in what we good at in missels sub systems radars electronics avionics if we had the money we can develop fighter
my models is sweden its 10 milion country with fighter submerine and farigate

if we will have weapon ambargo like france did in 20 century we will develop our self

 

[The SC]

http://www.tacticalreport.com/view_news/Saudi_Defence_Ministry_F-15_Silent_Eagle_and_F-35_JSF/2567

Keeping all the options open, mean that they have asked for the F-35?
Sorry we do not speak the same language..

 

[dani958]

Keeping all the options open, mean that they have asked for the F-35?
Sorry we do not speak the same language..

they will not get it soon
turkey get it it worth with there bad prezident erdugan that have ties with iran and china

 

[Hassan Guy]

Keeping all the options open, mean that they have asked for the F-35?
Sorry we do not speak the same language..

ok, well which source states saudi will go for the yf-23?

 

[dani958]

they will not get it soon
turkey get it it worth with there bad prezident erdugan that have ties with iran and china

ok, well which source states saudi will go for the yf-23?

he dont its just a dream

 

[The SC]

ok, well which source states saudi will go for the yf-23?

Read the title again.. you get your answer there..

 

[Hassan Guy]

Read the title again.. you get your answer there..

yes i see the title, but where is the source stating so?

 

[dani958]

if they revive it it will be only for usa

 

[Penguin]

Why they didn't manufacture even a helicopter after that,

That doesn't prove anything regarding theft of plans/designs.

and what restrains them from designing another aircraft better than the US as it is claimed in your post?

I haven't said the Israeli's designed an aircraft better than the US. Pls. quote the relevant section.

How about:
a) Because it is very expensive to do
b) US is actively discouraging it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAI_Lavi#Controversy_and_cancellation

Nothing to do with the Mirage? have you looked at the pics I provided? Delta wing and Canards were from the Mirage 2000 as it was made at about the same time as the US F-16..

So, that's proof then "it was made at the same time as the F16"? Well, so was the F/A-18 Hornet.

F16
First flight 20 January 1974
Introduction 17 August 1978
Produced 1973–present

Mirage 2000
First flight 10 March 1978
Introduction July 1984
Produced 1978–2007

F/A-18 Hornet
First flight 18 November 1978
Introduction November 1983 (USN) / 7 January 1984 (USMC)

IAI Lavi
First flight 31 December 1986
Status Canceled in August 1987
Number built 3 prototypes

Very similar design, nearly same first flight. Therefore design stolen too?
Jas 39 Gripen
First flight 9 December 1988
Introduction 1 November 1997
Produced 1987–present

Not at all a new concept
Saab Viggen
First flight 8 February 1967
Introduction 21 June 1971
Retired 25 November 2005

Why bother with Mirage 2000?
First flight Rafale A demo: 4 July 1986; Rafale C: 19 May 1991
Introduction 18 May 2001;
Produced 1986–present

Not to mention EAP (the prequel to Eurofighter Typhoon)
First flight 8 August 1986
Retired 1 May 1991

Have you heard the story of the KFIR stolen Mirage design that was the first made in Usrael fighter plane? don't tell me you didn't..

That Israel developed their IAI Nesher on the basis of Mirage 5, using plans obtained from Switzerland. But the story is a little more complex:

Israel had to replace more than 60 aircraft lost during the Six Day War and the War of Attrition which followed. Before the war, Israel began co-development with Dassault to build the Mirage 5 and it was eventually built by Israel and named Raam in Hebrew (thunder).
Dassault Aviation had developed the Mirage 5 at the request of the Israelis, who were the main foreign customers of the Mirage III. The Israeli Air Force (IAF) wanted the next version to have less all-weather capability in exchange for improved ordnance carrying capacity and range as the weather in the Middle East is mostly clear.
In January 1969, the French government arms embargo on Israel (in response to the 1968 Israeli raid on Lebanon) prevented the first 30 Mirage 5 aircraft (which were already paid for by Israel) plus optional 20 from being delivered and cut off support for the existing Mirage IIICJ fleet.
This was a setback for the Israeli Air Force, who needed the new Mirage to compensate for the losses of the Six Day War and was still using the Mirage IIIC. Israel then decided to produce the (Raam A and B project) airframes as it had the necessary plans, although Israel did not officially obtain a manufacturing license.
Officially, Israel built the aircraft after obtaining a complete set of drawings. However, some sources claim Israel received 50 Mirage 5s in crates from the French Air Force (AdA), while the AdA took over the 50 aircraft originally intended for Israel.
Production began in 1969[5] with the first empty airframes with no weapons, electronics, seat, or engine included, delivered directly from Dassault Aviation.[1] The first Raam A was delivered in May, 1971. In November, 1971 the plane was renamed Nesher.
The Neshers' airframe was identical to the Mirage 5, but there was an extensive refitting of Israeli avionics, a Martin-Baker zero-zero ejection seat, and improved provisions for a wider range of AAMs (Air-to-Air Missiles), including the Israeli Shafrir heat-seeking missile. Fifty-one Nesher fighters (Nesher S) and ten Nesher two-seat trainers (Nesher T) were built in all.
The Nesher had simpler avionics than the Mirage IIIC and was slightly less maneuverable. However, it had longer range and bigger payload. The reduced maneuverability did not prevent the Nesher from performing well in air combat during the Yom Kippur war.
Nesher production was phased out from 1974 to make way for an improved Mirage derivative that had been planned in parallel, in which the Atar engine was replaced by an Israeli-built General Electric J79 engine, the engine used on the American Lockheed F-104 Starfighter and McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II fighters. The result was the IAI Kfir.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAI_Nesher

Follow the lines they rarely lie

American F-16 Viper, Deployed in 1978

Israel IAI Lavi B 2, First Flight December 31, 1986

http://www.art-antiques-design.com/design/587-stolen-designs#!

Oh, they look alike so it must be that the design was stolen?

Back in the 1980's when the FS-X program was in its early stages (ie. before the US government got involved), this was one of the concept designs being floated around.

Looked vary similar to delta wing with canard Lavi and Gripen.

The end product, after US intervention, is really a modified, enlarged F16. Much in the same way F/A-18E/F is a modified and enlarged F/A-18A/B/C/D

Point is: similar requirements at a certain point in 'technology'-time may lead to similar designs.

 

[The SC]

That doesn't prove anything regarding theft of plans/designs.


I haven't said the Israeli's designed an aircraft better than the US. Pls. quote the relevant section.

How about:
a) Because it is very expensive to do
b) US is actively discouraging it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAI_Lavi#Controversy_and_cancellation


So, that's proof then "it was made at the same time as the F16"? Well, so was the F/A-18 Hornet.

F16
First flight 20 January 1974
Introduction 17 August 1978
Produced 1973–present

Mirage 2000
First flight 10 March 1978
Introduction July 1984
Produced 1978–2007

F/A-18 Hornet
First flight 18 November 1978
Introduction November 1983 (USN) / 7 January 1984 (USMC)

IAI Lavi
First flight 31 December 1986
Status Canceled in August 1987
Number built 3 prototypes

Very similar design, nearly same first flight. Therefore design stolen too?
Jas 39 Gripen
First flight 9 December 1988
Introduction 1 November 1997
Produced 1987–present

Not at all a new concept
Saab Viggen
First flight 8 February 1967
Introduction 21 June 1971
Retired 25 November 2005

Why bother with Mirage 2000?
First flight Rafale A demo: 4 July 1986; Rafale C: 19 May 1991
Introduction 18 May 2001;
Produced 1986–present

Not to mention EAP (the prequel to Eurofighter Typhoon)
First flight 8 August 1986
Retired 1 May 1991

That Israel developed their IAI Nesher on the basis of Mirage 5, using plans obtained from Switzerland. But the story is a little more complex:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAI_Nesher


Oh, they look alike so it must be that the design was stolen?

Back in the 1980's when the FS-X program was in its early stages (ie. before the US government got involved), this was one of the concept designs being floated around.

Looked vary similar to delta wing with canard Lavi and Gripen.

The end product, after US intervention, is really a modified, enlarged F16. Much in the same way F/A-18E/F is a modified and enlarged F/A-18A/B/C/D

Point is: similar requirements at a certain point in 'technology'-time may lead to similar designs.

True, but Usrael has a history of tech theft, google about plutonium from the US, or the South African ATGM (Mokopa Missile Affair) now called Spike..

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/...a-south-ssa-guardian-mos-150219180058280.html

 

[dani958]

aljazeera israel haters "relible" source spike is from 1981 and Mokopa from 1996 only
spike exported to all the world if mokopa so good why isnt it exported to the world th south africa defence industry is shit there air to air missle is copy of our derby missle
however we dont have alot time defence realtion with south africa and today we are among the most advanced defence industry in the world
just like china