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YF-23 (Black Widow II): will KSA go for it?

Dude what?

The YF-23 was an experimental aircraft which never entered production and has been dead for over 2 decades.

Im guessing people just post whatever they want these days.

@The SC what is wrong with you?
It is a possibility and we are discussing it..you don't like the thread just move on to other ones..what's wrong with you?

No, they can't. It's a dead project.
The design and specs of the project still exist as well as some embryonic production line,..it is better than starting from zero, isn't it?

Even the F22s production line has been mothballed. Why would the US revive an even older 5th gen project?

Lets assume the US does revive the F23. I am sure all the other parties that were interested in F22 would want to grab hold of a F23.
We are talking about KSA buying the rights to the F-23 not the US reviving the project..
 
The design and specs of the project still exist as well as some embryonic production line,..it is better than starting from zero, isn't it?
This was a prototype, as such it would need to undergo drastic changes, if it was ever revived in any serious manner. The hardware, as well as the software would also need to be updated, as this design is based upon far older technology than most existing systems. Currently, the F-22 and the F-35 far outclass it, and also keep in mind, the F-22 went through drastic redesign, after it won the competition, to the point that it's hardly the same as the YF-22.

They'd be better off just buying another existing system, or designing one themselves.
 
It is a possibility and we are discussing it
how? says who? under what circumstance(s)?


You can't just take a old military project and say is "blank" going to get it without any source or news.
 
That is why I thought of it.. it had parallel technologies with the F-22 that the Saudis were supposed to get from the Bush administration.. but the Usraelis started crying wolf and wanted the same.. Obama just stopped it for everyone.. The F-23 was tested too at the same time as the YF-22.. meaning that it had production facilities that can be transferred to KSA..the only objections might concern ToT but that can be partial too, and the price that will be exorbitant..
F-35 might be coming, but I do not think it will be for KSA, most likely for the UAE, the Saudi doctrine for the air force is different, they never went for the F-16s, and the F-35 is its 5th generation replacement, while there are only the F-22 or F-23 that are the 5th generation of the F-15, the main backbone of the RSAF..


Never heard of a US F-32 fighter!!!? any sources please?

The one which got defeated by F-35.

Boeing X-32 (Aircraft model).
https://goo.gl/search/Boeing+X-32
 
This was a prototype, as such it would need to undergo drastic changes, if it was ever revived in any serious manner. The hardware, as well as the software would also need to be updated, as this design is based upon far older technology than most existing systems. Currently, the F-22 and the F-35 far outclass it, and also keep in mind, the F-22 went through drastic redesign, after it won the competition, to the point that it's hardly the same as the YF-22.

They'd be better off just buying another existing system, or designing one themselves.
Why not upgrade it with the help of US manufacturers, after all they have signed deals worth more than $300 billion for many other projects..

how? says who? under what circumstance(s)?


You can't just take a old military project and say is "blank" going to get it without any source or news.
Read the title.. will KSA do it and go for it?
 
The F-23 Fighter: The Super Plane America Never Built

1024px-YF-23_top_view.jpg


The Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor is the best air superiority fighter ever built, but could America have done better?

When the YF-22 prototype won the contract for the Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF) in April 1991, it was a lesser plane compared to the Northrop YF-23 in many ways. Though the YF-22 was a more maneuverable aircraft, the YF-23 had far greater supersonic cruise capability—especially when outfitted with the General Electric YF120 variable cycle engines. Even when powered by the less powerful Pratt & Whitney YF-119, the YF-23 had the ability to fly an entire sortie at supersonic speeds above Mach 1.4 (explained to me sometime ago by Barry Watts at the Wilson Center—who was an analyst on the Northrop team at the time). The sleek prototype jet could also cruise at slightly more than Mach 1.8 when equipped with the YF-120.

“I don’t recall Barry Watts, although the name has a familiar ring. He was right about supercruising for the whole sortie, as that’s the definition (Ps=0), but he was wrong about the number,” Jim Sandberg, test pilot of the YF-120 powered YF-23 told me a few years ago. “The one you quoted was just a bit shy for our PAV-1 that was equipped with the relatively underpowered YF-119 engines developed by P&W. ‘My’ airplane, PAV-2, equipped with the more powerful YF-120 engines developed by GE supercruised quite a bit faster—‘very fast’, as the USAF censors advised us to say.”

The final production version of the F-22 Raptor also cruises at speeds greater than Mach 1.8 without afterburner—but its endurance is much more limited. In fact operational Raptor pilots tell me that it’s not very useful during real world missions. “Supercruise is impressive on paper but not very practical in a fighter with limited fuel,” a senior Air Force F-22 pilot said. “I would much rather have an aircraft that accelerates and gains energy back quickly than one that supercruises.”

The YF-23—contrary to popular belief—did not have an overall top speed that was any faster than the YF-22. Both jets were limited to an aerodynamic max speed of about Mach 2.2 as a result of their fixed-ramp external compression inlets. In fact, operational F-22 Raptors are “red lined” at exactly Mach 2.0 with an artificial placard because the aircraft’s stealth coating are prone to delamination if the jet went any faster—particularly around the canopy. The Northrop design also had better range compared to the YF-22, and was arguably a stealthier design.

But why did the YF-23 get beat by the Raptor?

On the surface, the decision to go ahead with the YF-22 might seem like a vote in favor of a more conservative design since both jets grossly more than exceeded the Air Force’s requirements. But there was much more to the Air Force’s decision than aircraft performance. Three major factors played in Lockheed’s favor.

This being Washington, politics matter. Northrop and partner McDonnell Douglas had antagonized the Air Force and Pentagon leadership with their performance on the B-2 bomber and A-12 naval strike aircraft, Watts explained.

The second factor was the U.S. Navy. Even though the service had dropped out of the ATF program, the U.S. Navy still had a vote on which aircraft would be selected. The Navy’s choice was the naval variant of the YF-22 design, which looked like bizarre hybrid of a Raptor and F-14 Tomcat with variable geometry wings. “The team, working hard on every detail of our NATF [Naval Advanced Tactical Fighter] design in late 1989 and early 1990, produced a very stealthy swing-wing fighter that could supercruise. It was very suitable for carrier operations,” according to Sherm Mullin, the Lockheed Skunk Works lead for the ATF program. “The Navy still got a vote in the ATF competition, and, as we found out later for certain, it cast it for our F-22 team.”

The Navy was not fond of the naval derivative of the YF-23, which had a canard configuration the service found less than appealing. In fact, because the Navy’s reaction was so favorable, Lockheed later pitched a modified version of its NATF proposal for the ill-fated AF-X project that the Navy was ultimately forced to cancel in favor of the Joint Strike Fighter program. Some Navy officials are bitter about that fact to this day.

The third major factor was that while Northrop adhered strictly to the requirements, Lockheed had the foresight to engage Tactical Air Command (and its successor Air Combat Command (ACC)) on what the Air Force actually wanted. While theoretically the YF-23’s combination of sheer speed, altitude and stealth should have carried the day; ACC operators had not fully bought into the fact that stealth would actually work.

Instead, ACC operators wanted to be sure that the ATF was maneuverable enough to defeat any comer in a visual range dogfight—and moreover—those pilots wanted a jet that would have grossly superior agility at all speeds, altitudes and angles of attack. Lockheed more than delivered on the Air Force’s desire for an extremely agile fighter with the thrust-vectoring Raptor. Watts described the YF-22 as a “super F-15”—which was exactly what the operational Air Force wanted.

Once the YF-22 was officially selected for the ATF program, it was designated the F-22 Raptor. Pratt & Whitney won the engine contest with its F119—which while not as powerful, was far more reliable than General Electric’s novel variable-cycle YF120. Ultimately, Lockheed Martin did deliver a world beating air superiority fighter that offers performance that is unmatched by anything else fly. However, one can still wonder, what would an operational F-23 have looked like?

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-f-23-fighter-the-super-plane-america-never-built-14328

640px-YF-23_exhaust.jpg


Design

The YF-23 was an unconventional-looking aircraft, with diamond-shaped wings, a profile with substantial area-ruling to reduce drag at trans-sonic speeds, and an all-moving V-tail. The cockpit was placed high, near the nose of the aircraft for good visibility for the pilot. The aircraft featured a tricycle landing gear configuration with a nose landing gear and two main landing gear. The weapons bay was placed on the underside of the fuselage between the nose and main landing gear. The cockpit has a center stick and side throttle.

It was powered by two turbofan engines with each in a separate engine nacelle on either side of the aircraft's spine. Of the two aircraft built, the first YF-23 (PAV-1) was fitted with Pratt & Whitney YF119 engines, while the second (PAV-2) was powered by General Electric YF120 engines. The aircraft featured fixed engine nozzles, instead of thrust vectoring nozzles as on the YF-22. As on the B-2, the exhaust from the YF-23's engines flowed through troughs lined with heat-ablating tiles to dissipate heat and shield the engines from infrared (IR) missile detection from below.

The flight control surfaces were controlled by a central management computer system. Raising the wing flaps and ailerons on one side and lowering them on the other provided roll. The V-tail fins were angled 50 degrees from the vertical. Pitch was mainly provided by rotating these V-tail fins in opposite directions so their front edges moved together or apart. Yaw was primarily supplied by rotating the tail fins in the same direction. Deflecting the wing flaps down and ailerons up on both sides simultaneously provided for aerodynamic braking.

To keep costs low despite the novel design, a number of "off-the-shelf" components were used, including an F-15 nose wheel, F/A-18 main landing gear parts, and the forward cockpit components of the F-15E Strike Eagle.

http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Northrop_YF-23
 
The F-23 Fighter: The Super Plane America Never Built

1024px-YF-23_top_view.jpg


The Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor is the best air superiority fighter ever built, but could America have done better?

When the YF-22 prototype won the contract for the Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF) in April 1991, it was a lesser plane compared to the Northrop YF-23 in many ways. Though the YF-22 was a more maneuverable aircraft, the YF-23 had far greater supersonic cruise capability—especially when outfitted with the General Electric YF120 variable cycle engines. Even when powered by the less powerful Pratt & Whitney YF-119, the YF-23 had the ability to fly an entire sortie at supersonic speeds above Mach 1.4 (explained to me sometime ago by Barry Watts at the Wilson Center—who was an analyst on the Northrop team at the time). The sleek prototype jet could also cruise at slightly more than Mach 1.8 when equipped with the YF-120.

“I don’t recall Barry Watts, although the name has a familiar ring. He was right about supercruising for the whole sortie, as that’s the definition (Ps=0), but he was wrong about the number,” Jim Sandberg, test pilot of the YF-120 powered YF-23 told me a few years ago. “The one you quoted was just a bit shy for our PAV-1 that was equipped with the relatively underpowered YF-119 engines developed by P&W. ‘My’ airplane, PAV-2, equipped with the more powerful YF-120 engines developed by GE supercruised quite a bit faster—‘very fast’, as the USAF censors advised us to say.”

The final production version of the F-22 Raptor also cruises at speeds greater than Mach 1.8 without afterburner—but its endurance is much more limited. In fact operational Raptor pilots tell me that it’s not very useful during real world missions. “Supercruise is impressive on paper but not very practical in a fighter with limited fuel,” a senior Air Force F-22 pilot said. “I would much rather have an aircraft that accelerates and gains energy back quickly than one that supercruises.”

The YF-23—contrary to popular belief—did not have an overall top speed that was any faster than the YF-22. Both jets were limited to an aerodynamic max speed of about Mach 2.2 as a result of their fixed-ramp external compression inlets. In fact, operational F-22 Raptors are “red lined” at exactly Mach 2.0 with an artificial placard because the aircraft’s stealth coating are prone to delamination if the jet went any faster—particularly around the canopy. The Northrop design also had better range compared to the YF-22, and was arguably a stealthier design.

But why did the YF-23 get beat by the Raptor?

On the surface, the decision to go ahead with the YF-22 might seem like a vote in favor of a more conservative design since both jets grossly more than exceeded the Air Force’s requirements. But there was much more to the Air Force’s decision than aircraft performance. Three major factors played in Lockheed’s favor.

This being Washington, politics matter. Northrop and partner McDonnell Douglas had antagonized the Air Force and Pentagon leadership with their performance on the B-2 bomber and A-12 naval strike aircraft, Watts explained.

The second factor was the U.S. Navy. Even though the service had dropped out of the ATF program, the U.S. Navy still had a vote on which aircraft would be selected. The Navy’s choice was the naval variant of the YF-22 design, which looked like bizarre hybrid of a Raptor and F-14 Tomcat with variable geometry wings. “The team, working hard on every detail of our NATF [Naval Advanced Tactical Fighter] design in late 1989 and early 1990, produced a very stealthy swing-wing fighter that could supercruise. It was very suitable for carrier operations,” according to Sherm Mullin, the Lockheed Skunk Works lead for the ATF program. “The Navy still got a vote in the ATF competition, and, as we found out later for certain, it cast it for our F-22 team.”

The Navy was not fond of the naval derivative of the YF-23, which had a canard configuration the service found less than appealing. In fact, because the Navy’s reaction was so favorable, Lockheed later pitched a modified version of its NATF proposal for the ill-fated AF-X project that the Navy was ultimately forced to cancel in favor of the Joint Strike Fighter program. Some Navy officials are bitter about that fact to this day.

The third major factor was that while Northrop adhered strictly to the requirements, Lockheed had the foresight to engage Tactical Air Command (and its successor Air Combat Command (ACC)) on what the Air Force actually wanted. While theoretically the YF-23’s combination of sheer speed, altitude and stealth should have carried the day; ACC operators had not fully bought into the fact that stealth would actually work.

Instead, ACC operators wanted to be sure that the ATF was maneuverable enough to defeat any comer in a visual range dogfight—and moreover—those pilots wanted a jet that would have grossly superior agility at all speeds, altitudes and angles of attack. Lockheed more than delivered on the Air Force’s desire for an extremely agile fighter with the thrust-vectoring Raptor. Watts described the YF-22 as a “super F-15”—which was exactly what the operational Air Force wanted.

Once the YF-22 was officially selected for the ATF program, it was designated the F-22 Raptor. Pratt & Whitney won the engine contest with its F119—which while not as powerful, was far more reliable than General Electric’s novel variable-cycle YF120. Ultimately, Lockheed Martin did deliver a world beating air superiority fighter that offers performance that is unmatched by anything else fly. However, one can still wonder, what would an operational F-23 have looked like?

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-f-23-fighter-the-super-plane-america-never-built-14328

640px-YF-23_exhaust.jpg


Design

The YF-23 was an unconventional-looking aircraft, with diamond-shaped wings, a profile with substantial area-ruling to reduce drag at trans-sonic speeds, and an all-moving V-tail. The cockpit was placed high, near the nose of the aircraft for good visibility for the pilot. The aircraft featured a tricycle landing gear configuration with a nose landing gear and two main landing gear. The weapons bay was placed on the underside of the fuselage between the nose and main landing gear. The cockpit has a center stick and side throttle.

It was powered by two turbofan engines with each in a separate engine nacelle on either side of the aircraft's spine. Of the two aircraft built, the first YF-23 (PAV-1) was fitted with Pratt & Whitney YF119 engines, while the second (PAV-2) was powered by General Electric YF120 engines. The aircraft featured fixed engine nozzles, instead of thrust vectoring nozzles as on the YF-22. As on the B-2, the exhaust from the YF-23's engines flowed through troughs lined with heat-ablating tiles to dissipate heat and shield the engines from infrared (IR) missile detection from below.

The flight control surfaces were controlled by a central management computer system. Raising the wing flaps and ailerons on one side and lowering them on the other provided roll. The V-tail fins were angled 50 degrees from the vertical. Pitch was mainly provided by rotating these V-tail fins in opposite directions so their front edges moved together or apart. Yaw was primarily supplied by rotating the tail fins in the same direction. Deflecting the wing flaps down and ailerons up on both sides simultaneously provided for aerodynamic braking.

To keep costs low despite the novel design, a number of "off-the-shelf" components were used, including an F-15 nose wheel, F/A-18 main landing gear parts, and the forward cockpit components of the F-15E Strike Eagle.

http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Northrop_YF-23

Would've been interesting to see what changes this prototype design would've morphed into if it was selected, like the YF-22 went through to eventually become the production Raptor.

I suppose they could buy the design and all the requirements to build it, but imagine the cost of such an endeavor?
 
YF-23 Could Set the Stage for Northrop Grumman’s Next Generation Fighter Proposal

March 23, 2015


In January of this year, Northrop Grumman let word slip that they were planning on developing a sixth-generation fighter for the U.S. Air Force, serving as a third competitor between established fighter giants Boeing and Lockheed Martin. This shouldn’t really come as a surprise to anyone, especially considering the involvement Northrop and Grumman (prior to their merger) had in the military aviation world. Northrop was responsible for the stealthiest strategic bomber, the B-2 Spirit, and they’re back at it, vying for the USAF’s Long Range Strike Bomber contract. Grumman brought about one of the most beloved fighter jets of all time, the F-14 Tomcat carrier air defense aircraft. That pretty much speaks for itself.

Currently, the American Department of Defense has two 6th generation projects planned- the Next Generation Tactical Aircraft (for the USAF, replacing the F-15C/D Eagle and eventually the F-22 Raptor), and the Next Generation Air Dominance fighter (for the USN, replacing the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet). Tom Vice, president of Northrop Grumman Aerospace Systems, was clear with Defense News that NG would be exploring radically-different designs, challenging the conventional architecture we’ve seen thus far F-15s, F-16 Fighting Falcons, F-22s and F-35 Lightning IIs, just as they did with their YF-23 Black Widow prototype when competing against Lockheed Martin’s YF-22 during the Advanced Tactical Fighter competition. NG has two separate teams working on proposals for both the Air Force and Navy next-gen fighters, which will be distinct from one another. That last sentence probably elicited a huge sigh of relief from those of you who maintain a degree of frustration with the Joint Strike Fighter program.

both_yf-23s_in_flight.jpg

The only two Northrop-McDonnell Douglas YF-23 prototypes in flight. (U.S. Air Force photograph/released)

In fact, if you’re wondering what NG’s fighter concept will look like, you probably won’t have to look very far. In developing a next-generation fighter, defense contractors take a look at the aircraft they want to eventually replace, and build upon its strengths while mitigating weakness. In the case of the F-22, Lockheed Martin took a number of cues from the McDonnell Douglas F-15C/D. The F-15 itself was the progeny of F-4 Phantom II, the first true air superiority fighter. So it only makes sense that to develop the sixth generation of air superiority fighters, Northrop Grumman will look to their near-win candidate of the fifth generation.

The YF-23 was by all accounts a very capable aircraft, though the Air Force judged it to be a risky investment. Co-built with McDonnell Douglas, it was stealthier than its competitor, and could achieve higher speeds, especially while supercruising. The exact figures are classified at the moment but that should still give you an idea of what Northrop Grumman is capable of. Maneuverability, however, was another issue that led the Air Force to choose the YF-22, which featured two-dimensional thrust vectoring giving it unparalleled supermaneuverability, a factor that gives the Raptor the edge in dogfighting. Northrop Grumman’s Next Generation Tactical Aircraft proposal could, therefore, very well be a reworking of the YF-23, with newer computers and more advanced weapon systems, stealthier skins and powerful engines. Time and time again, just as we’re about ready to give up on close-in dogfighting, it becomes all the more relevant. So multi-dimensional thrust vectoring might just be another capability of the proposal. In addition to his mention of NG exploring a tailless design, Tom Vice also hinted at the possibility of fielding optionally-manned fighters as well. Lastly, the U.S. DoD has, in the recent past, indicated that directed energy weaponry (a.k.a. lasers) could potentially be ready to be deployed aboard smaller aircraft by the time the 6th gen Air Force and Navy fighters are fielded. Need I say more?

https://tacairnet.com/2015/03/23/yf...op-grummans-next-generation-fighter-proposal/

Would've been interesting to see what changes this prototype design would've morphed into if it was selected, like the YF-22 went through to eventually become the production Raptor.

I suppose they could buy the design and all the requirements to build it, but imagine the cost of such an endeavor?
It can be a JV like the UAE-Russian one, a KSA-US JV with F-23 as the base design.. it will be less costly because it will be based on a 5th generation existing design unlike starting from scratch for the UAE-Russia with a 5th generation fighter based on a 4th generation design of the Mig-29..
 
It can be a JV like the UAE-Russian one, a KSA-US JV with F-23 as the base design.. it will be less costly because it will be based on a 5th generation existing design unlike starting from scratch for the UAE-Russia with a 5th generation fighter based on a 4th generation design of the Mig-29..

If you figure the US has had a very established aviation industry since Skunkworks and arguably the most successful aviation production line in history, so one can easily say they're the most equipped to take on a project of the magnitude of a 5th gen AC and without even considering the cost of the F-35 program, if we take the 187 F-22's produced and factor in the cost of the production facilities (even though they were spread out through the country), the eventual cost of each air frame, it was somewhere around $200-$250 million per. That was cost for USAF procurement, so what do we suppose a cost for a JV with another nation would be, which would include a substantial mark-up? And for how many aircraft?
 
If you figure the US has had a very established aviation industry since Skunkworks and arguably the most successful aviation production line in history, so one can easily say they're the most equipped to take on a project of the magnitude of a 5th gen AC and without even considering the cost of the F-35 program, if we take the 187 F-22's produced and factor in the cost of the production facilities (even though they were spread out through the country), the eventual cost of each air frame, it was somewhere around $200-$250 million per. That was cost for USAF procurement, so what do we suppose a cost for a JV with another nation would be, which would include a substantial mark-up? And for how many aircraft?
As you can see highlighted in red in my previous posts:
"To keep costs low despite the novel design, a number of "off-the-shelf" components were used, including an F-15 nose wheel, F/A-18 main landing gear parts, and the forward cockpit components of the F-15E Strike Eagle."

The last part is already made in KSA and the other parts are readily available..I am quite sure that it will cost less than the F-22 Raptor, since it doesn't have to be made to the US specs.. A very sophisticated 5th generation fighter can be built in numbers for less than $100 million per unit..if we take the example of the F-35.. also there won't be many different designs like F-35..
Well, for the F-22, the US with its mighty military budget wanted the best of the best of its top cutting edge technologies to be incorporated into the Raptor.. KSA does not have such requirement as a world superpower or potential enemies like the US has.. So an F-23 or based on it design with 5th G high tech like the one already incorporated on the F-15 SA will do the job, as long as it is stealthy, fast and with excellent manoeuvrability..
 
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Or buy the f-35.

Once again, this thread is ridiculous.
That is your opinion, you are entitled to it.. you can move on to other threads that are not ridiculous and save your time and bandwidth..
I have already explained in previous posts why KSA won't (most likely) go for the F-35 but the UAE might..
 
A New ufo will come out soon will ksa go for it ??? Will ksa go for the yf-23 ?What a stupid question is that of course not !!!
 

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