Y. The big Why?

[masterchief_mirza]

short answer to your question is
Mullah the Political Thug.

same Mullah who declared that listening to Radio or travelling by train or learning English will invalidate Marriage, result in Eternal hell after expulsion from Islam.

this Thugish mindset is an invaluable free gift for those entities that will keep Pakistan where it is.

Absolutely right. The absolutist mindset of such individuals is the core of the problem.

A wise Jedi once noted that only Sith lords deal in absolutes.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

We need a different model for Pakistan as it is virtually impossible to get Pakistani people to try to adopt Western values and culture wholesale.

What you said is 100% truth. But here is the rub. I can virtually guarantee this [although I won't be around by the time for making such a claim] that Pakistan will NEVER develop into a prosperous society like Japan or Turkey until the dayt it adapts the deeper thrust of Westernism even if you label it whatever.

What does this mean? Given that you are right it will be a tall order for Pakistani people to adopt Western ideas. This means Pakistan will be stuck in the rut of being a developing country for decades until time eventually prevails. Even Himalyas will one day be eroded to mole hills. so will Pakistan. Sadly this means Pakistan will continue suffer for at least two generations before sufficient Western influence seeps in.

What I am saying is instead of jumping up and grabbing the goal fast Pakistan is destined to take the long, hard ardous path of generational evolution - which will happen. Until then the countries destiny is to suffer.

You see for us individuals who move to West don't really need to change. We can just feed off the wider society while retaining our desi minds. But all of Pakistan can't move to the West. The only way for that is to have reform in Pakistan.

Which as you said not going to happen. Conclusion therefore is it will be job of natural evolution. Which takes time.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It's not hatred, it's just that us Pakistanis are not compatible with White Western people and their way of life.

Is it that 'we are not compatible' or that we choose to not be compatible?

For example. the corporation I work for employs people from many different racial, religious and national backgrounds. At office parties or more informal co-worker get togethers or even parties thrown by neighbors, I've often noticed that it is the practicing Muslim co-workers that are often absent or make an extremely token appearance, while the Indian (mostly Hindu) co-workers will engage more frequently and broadly. Even some of the Western Arab Muslims (Egyptians etc) seem to engage more than Pakistanis do.

Of course at many of these get-togethers there is alcohol involved, but many people (including your WASP's) who don't drink or don't want to drink will still engage and mingle and build friendships and contacts outside of the workplace. The Indians will invite people over to their homes and vice versa, while many Pakistanis just stay aloof.

Why?

What is wrong with relaxing and engaging with co-workers or neighbors who might be drinking if you yourself don't drink? What is wrong with going to a neighbors pool party and just not staring at the women in swim-suits and putting yourself in a position where you can still mingle and engage with people?

 

[Norwegian]

You see for us individuals who move to West don't really need to change. We can just feed off the wider society while retaining our desi minds. But all of Pakistan can't move to the West. The only way for that is to have reform in Pakistan.

Majority of Pakistanis who move here to West remain with desi mindset. They evade taxes, rarely integrate in Western society, and keep mixing with their own ethnic group only.

 

[Vapnope]

I think commoners take it as a war of civilization of East VS West or Us VS Them, where a no idea (no matter how universal it maybe) is considered a deviation from your own ideals. French beard is considered a blasphemy by some conservatives while you won't find any Islamic jurisdiction barring people from doing it.
Say feminism is a simple idea (I hope people can differentiate between misandrists and feminists) however you mention it in front of even educated class and people get triggered.
So i think we need to call ideas universal instead of calling Western Ideas to ensure that people dont get triggered.

 

[Norwegian]

I've often noticed that it is the practicing Muslim co-workers that are often absent or make an extremely token appearance, while the Indian (mostly Hindu) co-workers will engage more frequently and broadly. Even some of the Western Arab Muslims (Egyptians etc) seem to engage more than Pakistanis do.

They don't show up because they don't want to integrate in their new society and culture

The Indians will invite people over to their homes and vice versa, while many Pakistanis just stay aloof.

Because they view Western cultural norms as immoral and below Islamic culture

What is wrong with relaxing and engaging with co-workers or neighbors who might be drinking if you yourself don't drink? What is wrong with going to a neighbors pool party and just not staring at the women in swim-suits and putting yourself in a position where you can still mingle and engage with people?

They would rather join their Jihadi brethren in Syria than to show up in Western neighborhood birthday parties

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Who gave Mullahs political milage but our beloved establishment? Mullah Military alliance needs to be broken.

Rubbish. I am sorry but you have heard of the saying "little knowledge is dangerous"? Mullahs have nothing to do with military. Indeed the last bastion of secularism in Pakistan was the military until about late 1970s. The mullah sadly was enabled in 1949 via the Objective Resolution and then ably imported from India [Mauddodi] or sponsored by the Muslim Leaque clique from 1948-1958 which was nothing but a political mafia that ruled by administrative fiat.

Any doubts and try finding how many elections were held in Pakistan from 1947 until Ayub takeover. For referance India had TWO elections between 1947 and 1958. So the ML clique used religion and imported mullahs to sedate and articulate their rule. That is when mullahs were planted into Pakistani polity. After that with every decade they grew bigger. This military-mullah thing is favourite of the Pakistan bashing Indians/Western media and their kith inside Pakistan.

1951–52 Indian general election - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

FACT: Pakistan had to wait 23 years until 1970 for the first election.

General elections were held in Pakistan on 7 December 1970 to elect members of the National Assembly. They were the first general elections since the independence of Pakistan

 

[Black.Mamba]

On a lighter note: We have something in our DNA that makes us very resilient to change, maybe someone told us change is Haram.

For Pakistan, as compared to other nations there are many different factors at play. I often contemplate on the same thoughts as to what went wrong, as to why we were able to make rapid progress initial and then practically halting down to zero and in some cases maybe even in the opposite direction altogether and some of the other ancillary thoughts in the overall realm of things.

There are many different points of view already out there but I am personally convinced we lost it the day we became "The Islamic Republic of Pakistan". Because it might seem like we merely added the word "Islamic" but in reality, it changed everything. As we never became truly Islamic and left whatever we were and ended up being a hybrid mix of everything yet being nothing. So on every cross road we as a nation keep on hearing notions like "is it islamic thing to do?", "why should we follow West, Islam is better" and many other paradoxical questions and in the end we have been running around in loops; one step forward three steps backward. And the irony is we don't even know the real teachings of Islam.

Nations are built by visionaries, leading the pack while the rest being convinced in the overall idea and marching behind, putting in their bit and collectively the whole society, country, or the nation rises, achieve objectives, and reach places. That is what our founding fathers taught and proved to us as well. That is why initially things were sailing in the right direction, rapid progress was made and goals were being achieved, at-least our course was correct.

Following is the 11th August 1947 speech of our Quaid, he clearly laid down the vision of Pakistan. And if he ever wanted an Islamic Republic he would have said so, I believe his English was not that mediocre that he couldn't spell or pronounce it.
(I am just posting a major chunk of the speech as I personally know a lot of People still have not read his message in its entirety)

"If we want to make this great State of Pakistan happy and prosperous, we should wholly and solely concentrate on the well-being of the people, and especially of the masses and the poor. If you will work in co-operation, forgetting the past, burying the hatchet, you are bound to succeed. If you change your past and work together in a spirit that everyone of you, no matter to what community he belongs, no matter what relations he had with you in the past, no matter what is his colour, caste or creed, is first, second and last a citizen of this State with equal rights, privileges, and obligations, there will be no end to the progress you will make.

I cannot emphasize it too much. We should begin to work in that spirit and in course of time all these angularities of the majority and minority communities, the Hindu community and the Muslim community, because even as regards Muslims you have Pathans, Punjabis, Shia's, Sunnis and so on, and among the Hindus you have Brahmins, Vashnavas, Khatris, also Bengalis, Madrasis and so on, will vanish. Indeed if you ask me, this has been the biggest hindrance in the way of India to attain the freedom and independence and but for this we would have been free people long long ago. No power can hold another nation, and specially a nation of 400 million souls in subjection; nobody could have conquered you, and even if it had happened, nobody could have continued its hold on you for any length of time, but for this. Therefore, we must learn a lesson from this. You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the state.

As you know, history shows that in England, conditions, some time ago, were much worse than those prevailing in India today. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some states in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class. Thank God, we are not starting in those days. We are starting in the days where there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one state. The people of England in course of time had to face the realities of the situation and had to discharge the responsibilities and burdens placed upon them by the government of their country and they went through that fire step by step. Today, you might say with justice that Roman Catholics and Protestants do not exist; what exists now is that every man is a citizen, an equal citizen of Great Britain and they are all members of the nation.
Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the state. "
Jinnah, August 11, 1947

Look how beautifully he presented the example of England to the masses and before that while he was explaining the shortcoming of India because of the diverse social fabric, aren't we witnessing the same hindrances in present day Pakistan?. Our Quaid gave us the vision, it is us who distorted it. He was visionary enough to know that the new nation will have very diverse religious and ethnic beliefs and that is why he discarded this whole idea and presented the idea of the state of Pakistan which was above all colors, castes and creeds. That was the identity of Pakistan hence the nation of Pakistan.

All these other matters like corruption are very secondary. So if we are truly an Islamic republic don't we all know the punishment of a thief? when did we implement it? The thieves who have robbed our nation are roaming free living in mansions abroad or within.

We have wasted 70 years and we will waste another 70 until we first decide who we really are only then we can be who we want to be.

@Yankee-stani

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Sir I believe our reluctance is stemmed in the days when Britishers started ruling us. Muslims didn`t welcome the Western culture whereas Hindus did and they excelled till the time Sir Syed Ahmad Khan came and told us there was nothing to be scared of.

That could probably be the reason why we don't adopt their culture and way of life like other non-Whites do.

You know I often agree with you but on this I beg to differ. If we are not "compatible" then why do million of us choose to live here. It must mean that our "incompatability" can't mean much as other mundane factors supercede it.

Too be honest you are right. But we are only compatible with the luxuries and high standard of living of the White Western nations.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

What is wrong with relaxing and engaging with co-workers or neighbors who might be drinking if you yourself don't drink? What is wrong with going to a neighbors pool party and just not staring at the women in swim-suits and putting yourself in a position where you can still mingle and engage with people?

I can tell you honestly I have mingled with WASP's my entire life. There were times I was the only ethnic minority but I NEVER drank. It is choice I made and others were obliged to respect my choice. I think lot of this is about confidence. You should have confidence in who you are. It was the nature of my job.

 

[Norwegian]

All these other matters like corruption are very secondary. So if we are truly an Islamic republic don't we all know the punishment of a thief? when did we implement it? The thieves who have robbed our nation are roaming free living in mansions abroad or within.

We have wasted 70 years and we will waste another 70 until we first decide who we really are only then we can be who we want to be.

It's not that simple. What you consider Islamic is totally open for interpretation. For Pmln Islamic is to do Hajj but loot and plunder of treasury is Halal. For PPP Islamic is to declare Ahmadis Kafir in constitution, but loot and plunder of treasury is also Halal. For JUI Islamic is to put everyone in Madrassahs but rape of children in there is Halal. That's why Pakistan failed because what's Islamic can never be defined or agreed upon. Yet it is part of entire constitution and all laws.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

What you said is 100% truth. But here is the rub. I can virtually guarantee this [although I won't be around by the time for making such a claim] that Pakistan will NEVER develop into a prosperous society like Japan or Turkey until the dayt it adapts the deeper thrust of Westernism even if you label it whatever.

What does this mean? Given that you are right it will be a tall order for Pakistani people to adopt Western ideas. This means Pakistan will be stuck in the rut of being a developing country for decades until time eventually prevails. Even Himalyas will one day be eroded to mole hills. so will Pakistan. Sadly this means Pakistan will continue suffer for at least two generations before sufficient Western influence seeps in.

What I am saying is instead of jumping up and grabbing the goal fast Pakistan is destined to take the long, hard ardous path of generational evolution - which will happen. Until then the countries destiny is to suffer.

You see for us individuals who move to West don't really need to change. We can just feed off the wider society while retaining our desi minds. But all of Pakistan can't move to the West. The only way for that is to have reform in Pakistan.

Which as you said not going to happen. Conclusion therefore is it will be job of natural evolution. Which takes time.

Agreed. The only other alternative is if Pakistan adopts the Chinese model. This is more likely to succeed compared to Westernization. Especially as China becomes a huge superpower and the Chinese influence in Pakistan increases as it currently starting to do through the CPEC initiative.

But Yes, if Pakistan doesn't adopt the Western or Chinese model, we will continue to be a third world nation.

 

[Progressive1]

Yeah no need to waste time on reinventing the wheel , we must follow the successful model that is present.

Problem is that our mullah mouth piece has created this wierd degenerate image of west in peoples mind that it is so deeply rooted , the reason is that they never had answeres to progress of west post renaissáince , so they created this myth of some degenerate evil west, trying to take their shame and family system and culture lol .Funny thing is that many westerners are inherently much closer to pakistanis that east asians are to us .but these mullah are for some reason are less strict on them. looks like women showing bit of skin and gaining equality is what irks mullahs the most

 

[Norwegian]

That could probably be the reason why we don't adopt their culture and way of life like other non-Whites do.




Too be honest you are right. But we are only compatible with the luxuries and high standard of living of the White Western nations.

Japanese never ruled us, then why don't we embrace their great society of cleanliness and hard work? Chinese never ruled us, then why don't we embrace their development model of hard work and patience?

 

[Black.Mamba]

It's not that simple. What you consider Islamic is totally open for interpretation. For Pmln Islamic is to do Hajj but loot and plunder of treasury is Halal. For PPP Islamic is to declare Ahmadis Kafir in constitution, but loot and plunder of treasury is also Halal. For JUI Islamic is to put everyone in Madrassahs but rape of children in there is Halal. That's why Pakistan failed because what's Islamic can never be defined or agreed upon. Yet it is part of entire constitution and all laws.

And what does that tell us? We were never meant to be islamic republic, religion had nothing to do with the state of Pakistan.