Xinjiang attack masterminded by terrorists trained in Pakistan: China

[Abu Zolfiqar]

most populated u mean....

and yes -- there are regions in the Punjab where foreign-funded madrassas are still operating --some which MAY be having some very objectionable curriculum




post #297 brought up some VERY valid points.

 

[muse]

OK so we have made some progress, at least we are beyond the wholesale denial - we are now in the lawyerly phase and the "lawyers" now choose to say that we should place all the blame of the civilian government -- Well, truth is that since Zia, we have had military government, whether outright or in the background - playing these lawyerly games brings us even greater disrepute, I think we should be careful with this objection of using "civilian government" as a excuse -- islamist terror exists in Pakistan and is exported from Pakistan because that's the way Pakistan army want it - when they don't want it , it will disappear.

Other "lawyers" seek to cloak Islamist terrorism as a variety of "crime" - and argue that crime exists everywhere - after all, if crime exists, then all LEA are responsible because they have not defeated crime in the world -- we hope our brother allies are paying attention to this argument - because there is no stronger indication, that Pakistan will be less than effective in trying to prevent another such attempt -- After all, if "crime has not been defeated everywhere, how can Pakistan hope to defeat this crime against it and her ally??

And for our "lawyer" If islamist terror is a crime, is not the ideology of islamism, an ideology that informs the action of the terrorist, not a crime???

 

[53fd]

@Bilal,

There are more terrorists in Punjab than there are in FATA, when is the state going to control and force its writ in our largest province?

Yes, that's true, but for now, I'm talking about the international terrorists from various international separatist groups (Uighurs, Uzbeks, Chechens, Arabs) getting refuge in the FATA under the protection of local Pashtun terrorists. This thread addresses that issue. The Punjabi Taliban causes havoc inside Pakistan, plays a small role in FATA, plays a larger role in the Kashmir insurgency.

 

[Kashmiri Nationalist]

Reply to Indians on this thread (without repeating it again and again):

Definition of terroism:

"The use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes."

"a terroristic method of governing..."

So, what is terror:

"intense, sharp, overmastering fear"

" instance or cause of intense fear or anxiety"

Now, tell me, what do the actions of 700,000 soldiers in the world's most militarized zone (Kashmir) be classed as?

If the natives of this land, if subjected to terrorism, can they not, naturally, rebel - fight back through whatever means? I can use this logic to apply it to the LeT's Mumbai attacks, but I shan't, as there, for me and many of my countrymen, a line that we cannot cross as a people. Now, tell me, what other avenue do the Kashmiri people have to protest -- rebel against these acts of terrorism? Protesting? This was witnessed in the 80s but bore no fruit except at the barrel of a gun, it was seen prominently in 2010 -- at the cost of 110 children's lives.

Pakistan has its problems. But expect your own house first before making judgements on others.

 

[53fd]

OK so we have made some progress, at least we are beyond the wholesale denial - we are now in the lawyerly phase and the "lawyers" now choose to say that we should place all the blame of the civilian government -- Well, truth is that since Zia, we have had military government, whether outright or in the background - playing these lawyerly games brings us even greater disrepute, I think we should be careful with this objection of using "civilian government" as a excuse -- islamist terror exists in Pakistan and is exported from Pakistan because that's the way Pakistan army want it - when they don't want it , it will disappear.

Other "lawyers" seek to cloak Islamist terrorism as a variety of "crime" - and argue that crime exists everywhere - after all, if crime exists, then all LEA are responsible because they have not defeated crime in the world -- we hope our brother allies are paying attention to this argument - because there is no stronger indication, that Pakistan will be less than effective in trying to prevent another such attempt -- After all, if "crime has not been defeated everywhere, how can Pakistan hope to defeat this crime against it and her ally??

And for our "lawyer" If islamist terror is a crime, is not the ideology of islamism, an ideology that informs the action of the terrorist, not a crime???

Come on, now that's crazy. What benefit could the Pakistan Army possibly have in exporting terror into Russia, Uzbekistan, China (& in other countries) through Chechen, Uzbek, Uighur terrorists?

Why is the Pakistan Army fighting in FATA then, conducting more intense operations than the US is in Afghanistan, if it doesn't see these groups as a threat, but as you call them, an asset?

Are you claiming that the Pakistan Army thinks its in its benefit that the terrorist groups, that are fighting them, & want to overthrow the Establishment get their safe havens in FATA? I expected better from you.

 

[muse]

K nationalist

What happens when the East Turkestan movement use the same argument against our brother ally, China??

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Muse:

and you seem to be the Prosecutor.

you claim that everything is Pakistan's fault. As if it wasnt bad enough to claim we invited all these problems to fall into our lap....you are saying we invented all these problems and woes, and we are responsible for all terrorism in the world.


am i far off the mark here? I just want to be clear, since we have seen what the ''defence team'' arguments are.

 

[aakash_2410]

The thread is started and thrashed by Indians.
This is the kind of drama and clever mischief only Indians ( and two other nationalities) are capable of.

Mate, you guys blame natural disasters in your country on Indians so this doesn't come as a surprise.

 

[muse]

What benefit does the Pakistan Army have in exporting terror into Russia, Uzbekistan, China etc through Chechen, Uzbek, Uighur terrorists?

Billu

After the invasion of Afghanistan -- Where did the IMU, the CHechans, and Uigur terrorists take refuge?? In Pakistan, just like OBL did --- How come?? How come all these groups found refuge in Pakistan??

And who ran Pakistan when the US invaded? So who let them in?? Civilians?? No control over FATA - so, it's not really Pakistan?? Afghans are right about Durand Line????

AZ made the point that the policy was short sighted - he should have added dangerous -- We continue to pay for this policy because Islamism is now everywhere in pakistan -- If you want to be rid of this ideology, kill it in the institution where it is rooted -p this institution is seen by Pakistanis as reputable, a source of pride -- but if it is corrupted and we don't clean it - can we really clean the rest??

You are student of history - you know better than to make that argument.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

islamist terror exists in Pakistan and is exported from Pakistan because that's the way Pakistan army want it - when they don't want it , it will disappear.

Again, do societies 'want crime'? If they don't, then why does crime continue to exist? You are making nonsensical arguments.

After all, if "crime has not been defeated everywhere, how can Pakistan hope to defeat this crime against it and her ally??

Crime can be minimized, crime can be made harder to commit. Of course typically that involves improving the conditions in which 'crime infested regions' exist - provide alternatives to those engaging in 'crime' - provide effective and trusted law enforcement and judicial institutions to keep a check on those that continue to resort to crime - etc. etc.

Terrorism will be defeated similarly, and the civilian government and civilian institutions have a major role to play here, far more than the role played by the military.

And for our "lawyer" If islamist terror is a crime, is not the ideology of islamism, an ideology that informs the action of the terrorist, not a crime???

Thought is not a crime - actions are. One could go a step beyond 'thought' and argue that 'inciting people to commit violence or illegal activity' is a crime, I would agree with that. However, 'incitement to violence' is also an 'act', it is not merely a 'thought', nor is it merely an 'ideology'.

So no, 'the ideology of Islamism' is not a 'crime'.

 

[53fd]

Billu

After the invasion of Afghanistan -- Where did the IMU, the CHechans, and Uigur terrorists take refuge?? In Pakistan, just like OBL did --- How come?? How come all these groups found refuge in Pakistan??

I am not disagreeing with you about the past history, where my disagreement lies is you thinking that the Pakistani Army today/still currently thinks these international separatist terrorist groups are an asset to Pakistan, when they are not. I think the current events in Pakistan are pretty clear on that.

International separatist groups comprising of Uighurs, Uzbeks, Chechens, Arabs in the FATA have no use to the Pakistan Army today. These terrorists are getting refuge there today because the Pakistani Establishment ignored & neglected the FATA region, making it a hotbed for international terrorists.

 

[muse]

Muse:

and you seem to be the Prosecutor.

you claim that everything is Pakistan's fault. As if it wasnt bad enough to claim we invited all these problems to fall into our lap....you are saying we invented all these problems and woes, and we are responsible for all terrorism in the world.


am i far off the mark here? I just want to be clear, since we have seen what the ''defence team'' arguments are.

Sir:

If some did not play attorney for the Defense, they would not have to come up against the prosecutor - Sir, If the prosecutor makes claims, he also provides evidence and defense of the claim - let the jury judge the veracity of the Defense and prosecutor's argument.

None of this would be necessary, if that mentality of defense, whether it is "Pakistan in danger" or "Islam in danger" was not trotted out - these are so offensive as to be beyond the pale.

All Pakistan's fault, a little bit Pakistan's fault, 30% percent, 50% fault ---- Is the reality other than, once again, Islamist terrorists trained in Pakistan??? And this time not from the horrible Hindooos, but our brother ally?? Our own brother ally makes this charge - and we are here defending and arguing what percent of the blame we should accept??

If the same had happened to us, what would we make of arguments that where the terrorists were trained is only partially responsible for the fact that the terrorist was trained in a particular place??? Please be fair, how would we take such arguments? How would we take arguments that this is just a variety of crime and since all crime is not defeated, Pakistan cannot be expected to defeat it???

Sir, you misread me if you are persuaded that you are encountering someone who wished Pakistan and Islam, ill will --

 

[Kashmiri Nationalist]

K nationalist

What happens when the East Turkestan movement use the same argument against our brother ally, China??

If they have a right to their land, as do we Kashmiris; then we cannot doubt them for that. If China wishes to oppress them through violent means, then they have a right to fight back through whatever means available to them. Believe in the principle in all weather, not when it suits you

Though I have limited knowledge on the E. Turkmenistan movement.

 

[53fd]

OK so we have made some progress, at least we are beyond the wholesale denial - we are now in the lawyerly phase and the "lawyers" now choose to say that we should place all the blame of the civilian government -- Well, truth is that since Zia, we have had military government, whether outright or in the background - playing these lawyerly games brings us even greater disrepute, I think we should be careful with this objection of using "civilian government" as a excuse -- islamist terror exists in Pakistan and is exported from Pakistan because that's the way Pakistan army want it - when they don't want it , it will disappear.

Other "lawyers" seek to cloak Islamist terrorism as a variety of "crime" - and argue that crime exists everywhere - after all, if crime exists, then all LEA are responsible because they have not defeated crime in the world -- we hope our brother allies are paying attention to this argument - because there is no stronger indication, that Pakistan will be less than effective in trying to prevent another such attempt -- After all, if "crime has not been defeated everywhere, how can Pakistan hope to defeat this crime against it and her ally??

And for our "lawyer" If islamist terror is a crime, is not the ideology of islamism, an ideology that informs the action of the terrorist, not a crime???

If I am hearing you clearly, you seem to be claiming that the Pakistani Army Establishment thinks it is in its interest, & desired by them as per policy, that FATA/Pakistan becomes a hotbed for international terrorism, the epicenter of world terrorism, affecting all the countries in the world today?

 

[muse]

Thought is not a crime

Indeed they are - that is the substance of conspiracy - Like I said with people such yourself, persuaded by an ideology as you are, our brother allies can be rest assured that a repeat is a certainty -- because since a understanding does not exist that such ideologies animate terrorists, we may be assured that neither will action against those whose actions are a expression of that ideology