Xinjiang attack masterminded by terrorists trained in Pakistan: China

[muse]

So there is a place called local talibistan?? It's Pakistan or it's not, right?? and you are much mistaken about IMU - in fact the most fierce Islamist terrorists are the Uzbeks and Chechans.

If Pakistan does not deal with the infrastructure of Islamist terror, if it does not deligitimize the ideology of the terrorist, how can we say that it has taken a strategic decision to be done with islamism?

The army has once again made a calculation, which from it's point of view, is unimpeachable, but whatever that calculation is, it certainly is not to break with international Islamism - indeed, the departure of the US will be proclaimed as a victory - don't take my word for it, but the narrative will run like this, "we defeated the soviet and the US, on to bigger things -- you know there's a whole world out there, watch your behind, Hindoo and Han".

 

[53fd]

So there is a place called local talibistan?? It's Pakistan nor it's not, right?? and you are much mistaken about IMU - in fact the most fierce Islamist terrorists are the Uzbeks and Chechans.

If Pakistan does not deal with the infrastructure of Islamist terror, if it does not deligitimize the ideology of the terrorist, how can we say that it has taken a strategic decision to be done with islamism?

The army has once again made a calculation, which from it's point of view, is unimpeachable, but whatever that calculation is, it certainly is not to break with international Islamism - indeed, the departure of the US will be proclaimed as a victory - don't take my word for it, but the narfrative will run like this, "we defeated the soviet and the US, on to bigger things -- you know there's a whole world out there, watch your behind, Hindoo and Han".

The difference in the Soviet-US scenario is that, when the Soviets were 'defeated', the groups were under Pakistan's control, & these groups were not attacking Pakistan. That clearly isn't the case today, or won't be the case when the US leaves the region.

 

[muse]

I don't understand how you can think the Pakistan Army holds any kind of sway over these Islamist groups any more,

See, a while back the Pakistanis were upset because the US was talking to the Talib, even as Pakistan offered it's "good offices" -- yeah brother man, they have channels top all these people.

Tell me - do you think lashkar e jhanvi can hold rallies if Pakistan did not want them to? Well? You think entire groups of Muslims in pakistan can be attacked by these groups and the Pakistan army cannot stop it?

If you do think the Pakistan army can't stop it, then, what do we need such a army for?

There is no escape from this horrible reality - but there is a way to make it right, make the army right by legitimizing the ideology of Islamism, it's the first step.

 

[muse]

The difference in the Soviet-US scenario is that, when the Soviets were 'defeated', the groups were under Pakistan's control, & these groups were not attacking Pakistan. That clearly isn't the case today, or won't be the case when the US leaves the region.

Pakistan is not attacking any international Islamist groups - it is only attacking TTP warlords who refuse to be army tools

 

[53fd]

Pakistan is not attacking any international Islamist groups - it is only attacking TTP warlords who refuse to be army tools

International terrorist groups need local groups to operate, & do not operate by themselves. In most cases, such as the IMU, while there are Uzbek fighters in FATA, there is no real base of the IMU there, & the Uzbek fighters need the protection of local groups to survive in the region.

 

[Shak]

Muse your a true think tank and I would like to salute you.

I really appreciate your posts and would like to see person like you with political power.

You don't type here for argument sake like others, we can really see a well mature individual with VISION.

Thank you for all your posts.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Please define "tools"

Do you mean friendly tribesmen who swear allegiance to Pakistan and who risk their lives (being dubbed spies) to help the Army fight those who are compromising our security

Imu and all those foreign groups are not tools....they are cannon fodder only. None of these terrorists are an asset to Pakistani nation. But we can't blindly go in shooting at everybody!

 

[muse]

Muse your a true think tank and I would like to salute you.

I really appreciate your posts and would like to see person like you with political power.

You don't type here for argument sake like others, we can really see a well mature individual with VISION.

Thank you for all your posts.

You'r kind and welcome -- AND now my ship is well and sunk - Indians thanking me and my own Pakistanis cursing me

Worst of both worlds - smart eh?

 

[VCheng]

You'r kind and welcome -- AND now my ship is well and sunk - Indians thanking me and my own Pakistanis cursing me

Worst of both worlds - smart eh?

I know how that feels like to a certain extent.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

See, a while back the Pakistanis were upset because the US was talking to the Talib, even as Pakistan offered it's "good offices" -- yeah brother man, they have channels top all these people.

Tell me - do you think lashkar e jhanvi can hold rallies if Pakistan did not want them to? Well? You think entire groups of Muslims in pakistan can be attacked by these groups and the Pakistan army cannot stop it?

If you do think the Pakistan army can't stop it, then, what do we need such a army for?

There is no escape from this horrible reality - but there is a way to make it right, make the army right by legitimizing the ideology of Islamism, it's the first step.

That is the job of the police, and interior ministry

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

You'r kind and welcome -- AND now my ship is well and sunk - Indians thanking me and my own Pakistanis cursing me

Worst of both worlds - smart eh?

As far as I'm concerned. I didn't curse you

Though yes, we clearly differ on some things. Definitely the indians will love u for all the obvious reasons. But your views are your own, you're entitled to them



I won't kill you for your views. You're still an e-friend.

 

[muse]

Please define "tools"

Do you mean friendly tribesmen who swear allegiance to Pakistan and who risk their lives (being dubbed spies) to help the Army fight those who are compromising our security

Imu and all those foreign groups are not tools....they are cannon fodder only. None of these terrorists are an asset to Pakistani nation. But we can't blindly go in shooting at everybody!

Sir, for me, these are only symptoms - they can dealt with in a minute, if the decision is made that we are done with Islamism -- and I don't look at physical action against them as anywhere as important, as action against the ideology and the infrastructure the produces and sustains this ideology's production in society - action against these is the real marker that a "strategic" decision has been taken and we are finally free of Islamism.

Getting back to the Chinese statement -- We should look at measured it was - and I hope "Isharaa Kafee ho ga"

 

[53fd]

You'r kind and welcome -- AND now my ship is well and sunk - Indians thanking me and my own Pakistanis cursing me

Worst of both worlds - smart eh?

Sir, despite a difference of opinion here, I still regard your viewpoints very highly. I still think of you as a close e-friend, that you're one of the best "think tanks" & thinkers around here, you're kind of like a mentor to me; you're older, more experienced & mature than I am, & have taught me how to look at things differently with your posts. You also have a genuine concern for the condition of Pakistan, & I appreciate you for that. I am glad we can have this discussion, even if we have differing views. Cheers

 

[Safriz]

You know the same "argument" can be applied to every other proxy backed separatist movements in the world. Be it Balochistan, Kashmir or Xinjiang?

i am illitetate about xinjiang so i cannot comment on that...all i can say is that if there is smoke therecis fire.
and you cannot compare kashmir and baluchistan.
kashmir is a territorial issue and ongoing since creayon of india and pakistan....while baluchistan is rather a cibil rights ans economic issue..not a seperatist movement.

 

[manojb]

What allows you to think that the strategic calculation has changed? -- After the US evacuates Afghanistan, there will be a significantly different game, however, what will not change for the Pakistan army, is the vehicle of international Islamism -- Will the Pakistan army make the talib disappear? in fact quite the opposite -- and however it might deal with the "Stans", it will continue to have a vehicle, a dog in the fight, so to speak, with these islamist groups it allows in NWA --

I second this.. we hear lot on this forum.. after US evacuate Afgan to contain India in afgan.. blah blah