Worldview: Pakistan's chief fear: India

[maqsad]

I'll ask again: Why would we want to destabilize Pakistan, given the fact that a destabilized Pakistan is our worst nightmare? We are very much happy with the status quo in Kashmir.

You haven't provided me any answer that is not rhetoric.

Then I will answer again, a destablized Pakistan is a weaker pakistan and will lead to dismantlement. The USSR tried the same policy on Pakistan in the 1980s and the USSR used Afghanistan as it's partner for the exact same goal the Afghans have had since 1947 and even before.

Stop asking the same question over and over again, it has been answered many different times. You already have all the answers in my original post #22 right here:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...-pakistans-chief-fear-india-3.html#post173142

You can't counter the answers I gave because I supplied motive, method as well as pasty history. Instead of trying to debunk my answer you just rephrase the same questions over and over again like a broken record.

 

[maqsad]

I am not in the manufacturing business. It is you who said it was India's unofficial policy. Are you privy to India's official or unofficial foreign policy? So, it is obvious who is fabricating.

India did not split Pakistan. It was the incorrect and racial policy that lead to Pakistan's breakup. India only lent a helping hand. It must be understood that if the Bengalis of Bangladesh had not revolted in the manner they did, it would have been impossible for Bangladesh to become an independent country in just 14 days, Indian Army notwithstanding. One does not have to go too far to realise this fact. The US and ISAF is still struggling in Afghanistan. IS the US and ISAF Forces inferior to the Indian Army? Therefore, it is obvious that it was the Bengalis who ensured the split and India helped. But for the Bengali anger, it would be impossible. And why were the Bengalis angered? Because they were treated as second class!! So, let emotions not heap blame on India alone. Pakistan was responsible for the split!



Again it is emotional! Is the Afghan anywhere capable of annexing half of Pakistan as you are trying to suggest. You are merely being emotion and burning yourself needless with self pity.

Pakistan is not a pack of cards as you wish to make it out to be.

The entire world is privy to India's unofficial policy, the whole world saw the results of that policy when India invaded East Pakistan in order to topple the federal government there.

You gave a helping hand? You invaded a sovereign country which you had infiltrated prior to that invasion with your secret services. You invaded it to support the side YOU wanted to support in Pakistan's civil war. The reason you supported the Bengali nationalists rather than Pakistan was because you wanted to split pakistan in two! Well if you call that a "helping hand" then you are also getting ready to lend a "helping hand" in yet another civil war which India, Afghanistan and other imperial elements want to brew in Pakistan today.

This is not emotion, this is a perfectly plausible scenario based upon solid motive, method and concrete historical examples which finger both India as well as Afghanistan. There is no self pity involved either, everyone will be dealt with as deemed necessary I am sure, nothing new to Pakistan.

 

[vish]

Then I will answer again, a destablized Pakistan is a weaker pakistan and will lead to dismantlement. The USSR tried the same policy on Pakistan in the 1980s and the USSR used Afghanistan as it's partner for the exact same goal the Afghans have had since 1947 and even before.

Check out the Parallel History Project; the USSR had no intention to attack Pakistan. If it would have wanted to, it would have done so within a few days after the fall of Afghanistan. Afghanistan's problem is the Pushtun lands that lie in Pakistan's side of the Durand Line. Nobaody wants to destabilize Pakistan; stop blaming your own follies and anamolies on others.

Stop asking the same question over and over again, it has been answered many different times. You already have all the answers in my original post #22 right here:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...-pakistans-chief-fear-india-3.html#post173142

You can't counter the answers I gave because I supplied motive, method as well as pasty history. Instead of trying to debunk my answer you just rephrase the same questions over and over again like a broken record.

I'll ask the question again, and again, and again. The reason being that I've countered the pseudo-arguments that you have presented. Further, your original post stated nothing but rhetoric.

 

[cactuslily58]

Why do you bother fabricating such complete and utter nonsense when you know it can be debunked completely? India has already destroyed the old Pakistan by splitting it into two states after invading one part smack in the middle of a civil war. Do you deny this? I want to hear you deny this so I can prove you wrong again, seems like you and Stealth Assasin are in the mood to be proven wrong today.

Both India and Afghanistan want to dismantle pakistan, the Afghans do not bother being dishonest about their intentions. Ask any Afghan and he will tell you they want to annex Balochistan and use Gawador as their warm water post and they want to annex most of NWFP and NA/Kashmir as well. India has already invaded and annexed other independent territories including Hydrabad and is doing that yet again with Kashmir. It's a lot harder with pakistan of course and may very well not happen since the challenges are enormous this time!

Listen, no one can dismantle any country unless the inhabitants want / facilitate it.

Why talk of a country.. even two brothers cannot be separated unless they want to.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

The entire world is privy to India's unofficial policy, the whole world saw the results of that policy when India invaded East Pakistan in order to topple the federal government there.

For Christ's sake, let's be rational and not give vent to emotions.

If you feel that India could destroy Pakistan in 14 days, why is she not doing so now? There was the Baluchistan insurgency and now it is FATA and then there was problems in NA.

Also do answer this: If the US and ISAF has not been able to do a Bangladesh in Afghanistan, are they no match to the prowess of the IA?

Let it be clear, ridiculous and racism is what made Bengali revolt. Don't run away from the truth to justify an embarrassment of herculean proportion. Musharraf, himself, has been candid about it. Are you privy to details more than Mushrraf? Even now, are there not grudges over Punjabi domination? Why is the Kalbagh dam niot being built? Quit being an escapist and blame everyone else for your woes? Who has caused the Balochi or the Pashtun to feel they way do? What do you think India to be? A Supernatural force equal to God that it can make anything happen? Which world are you in? Come down to Mother Earth and let hate not consume you into a hallucinating inferno!!

You gave a helping hand? You invaded a sovereign country which you had infiltrated prior to that invasion with your secret services. You invaded it to support the side YOU wanted to support in Pakistan's civil war. The reason you supported the Bengali nationalists rather than Pakistan was because you wanted to split pakistan in two! Well if you call that a "helping hand" then you are also getting ready to lend a "helping hand" in yet another civil war which India, Afghanistan and other imperial elements want to brew in Pakistan today.

BTW what are you doing in Kashmir? Eating apples?

What are you doing there? To promote love?

I fear you have no clue of geo politics!

It is so pathetic to discuss with an person who has abdicate logic for emotions and self pity!

If Muhjabir Rehaman, who had the majori8ty in the Parliament been allowed to be the PM, would there be this split? Just answer this. But he was a Bengali and you could not have a Bengali ruling you!! As simple as that! You could have a Shia, but not a Bengali!!!!!!!

This is not emotion, this is a perfectly plausible scenario based upon solid motive, method and concrete historical examples which finger both India as well as Afghanistan. There is no self pity involved either, everyone will be dealt with as deemed necessary I am sure, nothing new to Pakistan.

Nothing is new to you. Everyone else is to blame for your woes. Indians, the US, the Jews and anyone else who is the flavour of the moment.

Pakistan is in no position to deal with anyone. Deal with Mehsud first!

I have no problems if yoiu want to paint India's military greater prowess than that of the US! It does make me feel terrific, but being a pragmatist, I known that it is a bogus statement.

Your suggestion that India achieved a 14 day marvel to split Pakistan as superior against the ISAF effort in Afghanistan is most unique!!

Have you served in the army?

You insult Pakistan and the Pakistan Army!

I have confronted the Pak Army nay a time and I daresay they are good as anyone else.

I am shocked at the way you denigrate both!

And as an Indian, I don't!!

 

[IceCold]

India could not destroy Pakistan in 14 days but the plot to achieve that goal has already been set, thanks to the helping hand led by the Karzai. There are two reasons for east Pakistan to fall, one definately i agree with Mr.Salim that bengali's were too against us and when the local population turns against, things get worst. I also agree that when Muhajib won the majority, he should have been allowed to form the government in both parts of Pakistan, since he won the elections fair and square and that is exactly where the seads for hatred were planted to an extent we could not change.
Second of my point comes on the mistakes that we committed then. First we should have known what Mugaib and Indra gandhi were up too and surely we should have taken Mughaib out. We did not do it instead we allowed him to flourish to an extent we payed the price. Moreover there was not only no land contact between the two sides but also the two sides were divided with hostile territory that was actively involved in the conflict meaning our armed forces were unable to get the logistic support and only navy which is even ignored now (goshh man we have'nt learned lessons) was our contact between the two sides. All these incidents resulted in a cake walk for the Indians to split Pakistan into two.
Things are different now, moreover neither the people of Baluchistan or NWFP or anyplace else want to separate from Pakistan, they are just a minority of rouge elements, miscreants foreign sponsored for e.g BLA and they are being taken care off. Afghanistan is for now no threat and sooner or latter Americans will have to leave it after all how long can they afford casualties on a foreign soil, and Afghanistan will pretty much split again. We just need to make sure that a check and balance is created in our foreign policy and if we see things getting rough we should act rather then to wait and watch for the world opinion on it. No one will stand for us, we will have to take a stand for ourself on our own, and if we think Karzai is or will be a problem for Pakistan in the future, we need to do something about it.
Its simple don't let others take advantage of your situation, because if you do then you are alone responsible for it and not anyone else, the others will definitely take advantage of the situation we cant blame them.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

India could not destroy Pakistan in 14 days but the plot to achieve that goal has already been set, thanks to the helping hand led by the Karzai. There are two reasons for east Pakistan to fall, one definately i agree with Mr.Salim that bengali's were too against us and when the local population turns against, things get worst. I also agree that when Muhajib won the majority, he should have been allowed to form the government in both parts of Pakistan, since he won the elections fair and square and that is exactly where the seads for hatred were planted to an extent we could not change.
Second of my point comes on the mistakes that we committed then. First we should have known what Mugaib and Indra gandhi were up too and surely we should have taken Mughaib out. We did not do it instead we allowed him to flourish to an extent we payed the price. Moreover there was not only no land contact between the two sides but also the two sides were divided with hostile territory that was actively involved in the conflict meaning our armed forces were unable to get the logistic support and only navy which is even ignored now (goshh man we have'nt learned lessons) was our contact between the two sides. All these incidents resulted in a cake walk for the Indians to split Pakistan into two.
Things are different now, moreover neither the people of Baluchistan or NWFP or anyplace else want to separate from Pakistan, they are just a minority of rouge elements, miscreants foreign sponsored for e.g BLA and they are being taken care off. Afghanistan is for now no threat and sooner or latter Americans will have to leave it after all how long can they afford casualties on a foreign soil, and Afghanistan will pretty much split again. We just need to make sure that a check and balance is created in our foreign policy and if we see things getting rough we should act rather then to wait and watch for the world opinion on it. No one will stand for us, we will have to take a stand for ourself on our own, and if we think Karzai is or will be a problem for Pakistan in the future, we need to do something about it.
Its simple don't let others take advantage of your situation, because if you do then you are alone responsible for it and not anyone else, the others will definitely take advantage of the situation we cant blame them.

Icecold,

Mugaib? Or did you mean Mujibur?

Mujib was taken out of circulation and jailed. I am sure you are aware of it.

One man does not a movement or a revolution make. It is just one injustice that sparks a revolution.

Land contact is not material except for movement of troops. What is important is mind and culture contact! That was missing!

The issue of Balochistan and others you are dismissing as rogue elements. Take care. Same arrogance made you lose Bangladesh. Stuff your arrogance and smell the coffee!

Pakistan sent troops and supplies even during the war through Sri Lanka.

The Americans will never leave Iraq or Afghanistan. It is a strategic requirement for them. So, understand the reality and get your act together.

Iraq is a cockpit into CAR and Russia's underbelly and Afghanistan is the cockpit into South Asia, CAR and Xinjiang.

Politicians don't care about casualties. They care about strategies that make them control the environment!

 

[Zyxius]

Although I agree that it does not make sense for India to try to destabilize Pakistan because it is not in their eventual interest. I also agree that it is not in Pakistan's interest to try to destabilize India or attack it covertly in any way. Unfortunately for all of us, both our governments do exactly that.

India has provided weapons, training and support to MQM militants throughout the 80s and 90s and stashes of Uzis were found from the homes of captured MQM militants. They had incredible stashes of weapons that were brand new and still packed. Uzis were provided to the MQM by the Indians....only an idiot would doubt that.

In Balochistan separatist movements and militants that have been caught had very advanced communications equipment and weapons which were of foreign origin....again deemed to have come from India.

There is absolutely no doubt that India is playing its game in Afghanistan also with the same sort of mindset. This is good for those same guys in Pakistan that like to give India a dose of their own. Afghanistan has been and always will be hard core Salafi Muslim/Mujahideen territory and Indians will most definitely get slaughtered there sooner or later. India and the Mujahideen are like oil and water....they simply cannot mix except possibly for those few bayghayrat elements that would sell their mothers for a profit. The Salaf will always stand in a Pakistan-Saudi-Afghanistan triangle with other populations in the Gulf and across the world as their strong supporters. These ties go beyond anything that the Indians can offer, and even money and corruption by the Indians will never break these ties. The most they can hope for is a brief moment in history where we will be the bad guys and they and the Americans the good. The best thing for India in this case is to be careful that they not try to turn a Muslim country against another because that will only work for so long before it backfires in a deadly way....and we Pakistanis can always help that take place if we feel that we need to.

The best thing for both countries is to try to avoid the "zero sum game" mentality and live and let live. I would prefer it if we could all seize those people in our respective administrations who do these kinds of things and hold them accountable, or at the very least remove them from office/duty.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

You have a problem with the Mohajirs?

The Shia Sunni divide is a better spark than a few Mohajirs.

Just commenting on the conspiracy theory of yours!

 

[Zyxius]

You have a problem with the Mohajirs?

The Shia Sunni divide is a better spark than a few Mohajirs.

Just commenting on the conspiracy theory of yours!

Dude Salim,

I have encountered your stunning logic on the other thread so I will avoid a debate with you. However, I will tell you that it is not a conspiracy theory but the reports of police and the intelligence agencies in Pakistan after each of these incidents.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Thank you for stating that I have stunned you.

We are well aware how the reports are doctored to suit the flavour of those in power in Pakistan.

Everything was pro Musharraf earlier and now he is condemned!!

 

[Zyxius]

Thank you for stating that I have stunned you.

We are well aware how the reports are doctored to suit the flavour of those in power in Pakistan.

Everything was pro Musharraf earlier and now he is condemned!!

LOL! You mean the only one who has it right is someone over the net who is sitting in India and spends his days posting on this forum?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

No, you are right.

You don't spend any time posting on this forum as is evident.

 

[Zyxius]

No, you are right.

You don't spend any time posting on this forum as is evident.

I have only 46 posts to my name while you have more than 100 times that. I think my point is still very valid, regardless of your pointing the finger back at me.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I have only 46 posts to my name while you have more than 100 times that. I think my point is still very valid, regardless of your pointing the finger back at me.

You obviously do not have an eye for detail.

Just check the joining date. I have been around for two years more than you! It does make a difference as anyone would see.

Let us forget about posts and the counter. They are immaterial. What is important is the content of the posts.

Check the thanks. And they are from Pakistani posters mostly!! Not that it should be the be all and end all!

Can we get back to the topic?