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Worldview: Pakistan's chief fear: India

You obviously do not have an eye for detail.

Just check the joining date. I have been around for two years more than you! It does make a difference as anyone would see.

Let us forget about posts and the counter. They are immaterial. What is important is the content of the posts.

Check the thanks. And they are from Pakistani posters mostly!! Not that it should be the be all and end all!

Can we get back to the topic?

Excellent point.

We are not here to be popular but to discuss the issues in a forthright manner. That should be the overriding aim and not to score brownie points!
 
Excellent point.

We are not here to be popular but to discuss the issues in a forthright manner. That should be the overriding aim and not to score brownie points!

My point, which you (Salim) seem to have missed, is that you are sitting in India and from what I can tell, have spent a lot of time during the last two years on this forum rather than on the ground actually knowing about the situation that we are discussing. I on the other hand am in Pakistan, personally know the intelligence and police that I am referring to....and you are calling what I am saying a conspiracy theory.

My point was to paint for you the picture of how silly it looks for you to say that from where you are sitting.
 
My point, which you (Salim) seem to have missed, is that you are sitting in India and from what I can tell, have spent a lot of time during the last two years on this forum rather than on the ground actually knowing about the situation that we are discussing. I on the other hand am in Pakistan, personally know the intelligence and police that I am referring to....and you are calling what I am saying a conspiracy theory.

My point was to paint for you the picture of how silly it looks for you to say that from where you are sitting.

Zyxius, the point about location is irrelevant in today's connected world. I can be better informed than you on Pakistani matters that you if I actively follow the events there. Same goes for so many Pakistani members here who are located outside the country but are in complete touch with the ground reality.
 
My point, which you (Salim) seem to have missed, is that you are sitting in India and from what I can tell, have spent a lot of time during the last two years on this forum rather than on the ground actually knowing about the situation that we are discussing. I on the other hand am in Pakistan, personally know the intelligence and police that I am referring to....and you are calling what I am saying a conspiracy theory.

My point was to paint for you the picture of how silly it looks for you to say that from where you are sitting.

You know people in the police and intelligence.

I have worked with them in the capacity of my profession.

That is the difference.

You are a Doomsday exponent and I know that Pakistan is not a pack of cards. I have also met them in the combat zone many a time.

Not really an armchair person.

Take it easy, even if you want to look busy!!
 
You know people in the police and intelligence.

I have worked with them in the capacity of my profession.

That is the difference.

You are a Doomsday exponent and I know that Pakistan is not a pack of cards. I have also met them in the combat zone many a time.

Not really an armchair person.

Take it easy, even if you want to look busy!!

:enjoy::cheesy::bunny:
 
This is one of the many op-eds floating around which support my view that rogue elements within the ISI are behind the attempts to sabotage Indian operations in Afghanistan.

Is it just like the rogue elements in RAW funding Uzbik, Tajik and Afghan militants to destablize FATA?
 
You know people in the police and intelligence.

I have worked with them in the capacity of my profession.

That is the difference.

Not really an armchair person.

Take it easy, even if you want to look busy!!

You know Salim, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you were part of a RAW team that spends all its time on Pakistani defence forums to see what we're talking about. I have a feeling you and Vinod are the same person....after all, that is what a RAW agent would do.

The reason I find what you say amusing, is because you seem to be saying that sitting in India you know everything that is going on in Pakistan...even better than those people in Pakistan who know the people involved firsthand.....why? Because you are a RAW Super-Agent!!
 
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RUBIN: Theater for struggle by Pakistan and India
By TRUDY RUBIN
The Philadelphia Inquirer

When a suicide car bomb killed scores of people at the gate of the Indian Embassy in Kabul this week, the shock waves reached Washington. (What about the suicide bomb blast in Islamabad recently that killed many Policemen?)

The attack was a grim reminder that Pakistan’s army and military intelligence are still more worried about archenemy India than about curbing militants in their own country. This poses a huge problem for Afghanistan — and for the United States. (Blame game by US press begins here. Has lady writing this article got any proof that Pak Army & Military Intelligence were involved? NO! I don’t think so. So how come she is so sure about it.)

The Bush administration is increasingly nervous about radical militants who now control much of Pakistan’s border area with Afghanistan.

Al-Qaeda now bases there, working with Pakistani terrorist groups and the Afghan Taliban. Cross-border attacks into Afghanistan are on the rise. (Interesting to note the word Cross Border Attacks. What does she mean by that? Does she means that there are no more Taliban left in Afghanistan? Again a typical example of anti-Pakistan propaganda fed brain)

Afghan officials blamed an unnamed foreign intelligence agency for the embassy attack. They clearly meant Pakistan’s Inter Services Intelligence Agency, or ISI, which they recently accused of mounting an assassination attempt on Afghan President Hamid Karzai.

Pakistan has denied both allegations, and its foreign minister, Makhdoom Shah Mahmood, condemned the attack.

But Pakistan’s well-meaning civilian government is weak and divided, and still getting its act together. Emerging from years of military dictatorship, elected officials don’t control the army or ISI.

Those bodies report to President Pervez Musharraf, who led a coup in 1999 and only recently took off his general’s uniform. He is now a lame duck whose power has dramatically shrunk.


So it’s unclear who now controls the military or ISI (Interesting to note all the points here. “Elected officials don’t control the army or ISI. Those bodies report to President Pervez Musharraf. . He is now a lame duck whose power has dramatically shrunk. So it’s unclear who now controls the military or ISI operatives." Does it makes any sense? She is contradicting herself.) operatives, who have longstanding relationships with radical Islamists in Pakistan’s tribal areas. (CIA also had longstanding relationship with Taliban, what about that?)

The ISI (& CIA) helped train Pakistani and foreign militants to fight Soviet troops in Afghanistan in the 1980s — with U.S. and Saudi funding. After the Soviets left, the ISI helped the Taliban take over Afghanistan (Because US left the mess and ran away and Afghanistan fell into the hands of War Lords. Stable Afghanistan required for stable Pakistan); when the Taliban fled to Pakistan, the ISI maintained its ties.

Why won’t the Pakistani military and ISI now confront the militants who are destabilizing Afghanistan — and also threatening Pakistan’s security? The central answer can be summed up in three words: fear of India.

“Afghanistan is ... a theater for the struggle between India (Having said all that about Pakistan, why author did not shed any light on Indian Interests) and Pakistan,” I was told by New York University’s Barnett Rubin, a top expert on Afghanistan (no relation to the writer of this column fear of being labeled bias? ).

The military is focused on the conflict with India, not the Islamist threat. (Kashmir is best place for that if ever Pakistan Military decides,, not Afghanistan)

Pakistan is squeezed between India and Afghanistan. Its military views ties with the Taliban as a hedge against the growing influence of India in Kabul, from which it could meddle in Pakistan.

The ISI has trained Pakistani militants to fight Indian troops in the disputed region of Kashmir. (What about India training MQM and Balochistan Liberation Army. Please keep record straight)

The Pakistani military’s nightmare, says Rubin, is that the United States “will abandon Pakistan and ally with India.” (Pakistan knows US is not new to adopt this kind of behavior. It has already happened in 1989, so it’s not a military nightmare)

Clearly, Pakistan’s government needs help in jump-starting crucial diplomacy with India.

Given improved U.S.-Indian relations, the White House — and the next president — should try to quietly move India and Pakistan toward agreement on Kashmir.

Washington should also ensure that billions in military aid to Pakistan goes for counter-insurgency training, not heavy weapons suited for war with India. (Well, if only money matters, then I think US has already spent trillions of dollars in Iraq & Afghanistan, why the situation is still out of control)

© 2008, The Philadelphia Inquirer
 
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Nice confession!

Helping more in the future, perhaps Baluchistan, Tibet? :hitwall:

In China, everything is under the wraps.

And so it must have come as a surprise to you that any country talk straight.

It is well known fact that the Indian Army went into East Pakistan. The world knows about it.

You didn't?
 
You know Salim, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you were part of a RAW team that spends all its time on Pakistani defence forums to see what we're talking about. I have a feeling you and Vinod are the same person....after all, that is what a RAW agent would do.

The reason I find what you say amusing, is because you seem to be saying that sitting in India you know everything that is going on in Pakistan...even better than those people in Pakistan who know the people involved firsthand.....why? Because you are a RAW Super-Agent!!


It is newbies who come to the forum and act like knowall, when they know fanny adams of what has happened or is happening.

Everyone, but you, knows that I was in the Army.

The Army functions on intelligence reports and even on interaction with personnel in the field. Anything new in that?

One does not have to be on the spot to know what is happening in the world. If one had to do so, then every event of the world would have to be visited and that too exactly when it is happening! Omnipresent is the English word for such a state of affairs. God alone is supposed to be omnipresent. Do you think I am God for you?


So, you are amusing and illogical and as usual, you jump to wrong and fallacious conclusion.
 
In China, everything is under the wraps.

And so it must have come as a surprise to you that any country talk straight.

It is well known fact that the Indian Army went into East Pakistan. The world knows about it.

You didn't?

"Indian Army went into East Pakistan." :bounce:

Show your true imperialistic face again.

You deem East Pakistan as an Indian sovereign state so your army can freely "went into" and "came out"?

If this is not a wrap, what else will be?
 
Is it just like the rogue elements in RAW funding Uzbik, Tajik and Afghan militants to destablize FATA?

"Indian Army went into East Pakistan." :bounce:

Show your true imperialistic face again.

You deem East Pakistan as an Indian sovereign state so your army can freely "went into" and "came out"?

If this is not a wrap, what else will be?

Oh Jeez Gpit. Stop scaremongering and post something substantial.
 
Indian Muslims at it again?


How public is public opinion?
BY M J AKBAR (Byline)

14 July 2008
ALL opinion is not public. This is one reason why public opinion polls so often get it wrong. Some sections of the Indian public — generally, the less confident — prefer to keep their views to themselves, partly out of a nagging fear that the establishment might react adversely to a hostile opinion.

And partly out of a sense of property rights in a democracy: why should anyone else know what I think? Let them find out when they check the ballot box. Instead of leading the opinion pollster towards the broad truth, the voter might even deliberately mislead.

Many Indian Muslims, a minority that has learnt to maximise its democratic opportunities, have become sophisticated in the art of misleading the establishment. In the absence of any direct communication with the grassroots, or the tea-stall, the establishment prefers to get its information through an intermediary class, the most prominent of which is the clergy.

Whenever political parties want to advertise "Muslim" support, they parade a queue of grey beards. Maulanas do have their place in Muslim society, a prominent one, but they are not the only determinants or mirrors of opinion. Their influence can be overestimated. It is hardly a secret that some of the Indian clergy are sustained by the establishment and can be counted upon to echo whatever any government wants to hear
.

Very few of the Maulanas-for-hire actually believe in the statements they make for Delhi's consumption. The rhetoric of the same Maulanas at the next Friday khutba [the sermon at Friday prayers] could easily be at great variance from their public posture a few days before.

Muslim voters, in any case, are not mechanical one-source consumers. They hear, they watch, they read but, most important, they remember. They are affected by their individual woes, but equally bear a strong sense of community. Television has made the world a village, and Iraq is as close to Kerala as Gujarat.

As Parliament gears up for a vote of confidence on the Congress-driven nuclear deal, evidence of base realities is beginning to seep upwards. The virtual split in the Indian Union Muslim League over the deal tells its own story. On 25 June, just a day before he died in Mumbai, G.M. Banatwala, then the party's national president, issued a press statement saying that the deal was not acceptable and that the party should oppose George Bush's "imperialism". He advised the Congress to "reconsider its decision".

This of course was unpalatable to the establishment lobby within the IUML, led by E. Ahamed, who has done well as Minister of State for External Affairs in the UPA. He has the distinction of being the first Muslim League minister in Delhi since 1947. The pro-government section of the party therefore has a vested interest in supporting what the Congress orders it to do, and will ratchet up the usual list of advantages and alibis in defence of its alliance with the Congress.

But there was strong resistance when the deal was discussed at a three-hour meeting of the party in Malappuram on July 10. The compromise that emerged was a typical fudge: the party would vote for the government, not the deal, and would convey Muslim anxiety to Congress president Sonia Gandhi. "The Muslim community is worried about the deal," said Panakkad Syed Muhammadali Shihab Thangal, president of the Kerala unit.

The Muslim League has rivals for the space it has acquired in the Malayalee Muslim's affections. The most notable competitor is the People's Democratic Party, led by Abdul Nazar Madani. Madani publicly castigated the League and added, "The Muslim community across the world has been facing atrocities sponsored by the United States. The deal with an anti-Muslim country should have been opposed by the IUML."

The CPI(M), which would like nothing better than to crack open the hold that the League traditionally has over the Muslim vote in Kerala, has accused the IUML of being loyal to American imperialism, adding for good measure that the Congress was in collusion with America, which had killed Muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine.

Like all other voters Indian Muslims too are influenced by both regional and national issues: the Muslim League's views in Kerala does not impact on the way Muslims vote in Uttar Pradesh or Bihar. But on national and international issues there is a clear majority view across the states. The nuclear deal is both a national and an international issue, and it is only logical that national and international realities will enter the argument.

The only point being consistently hammered by Congress, Mulayam Singh Yadav's Samajwadi Party and the IUML in order to change Muslim sentiment is the spectre of BJP in all its manifestations. Let us look at the list.

At the top is the statement that if you oppose the deal it will help communal forces, in that it will enable the BJP to come to power. Does this mean that the Congress and UPA have already conceded defeat in a future election? I thought the Congress believed that the nuclear deal would be an election-winner, sweeping up votes with every clause.

In fact, instead of searching for a harrowing and narrow victory in Parliament, the Congress should have had the confidence to go the people and been vindicated by their support. The Congress did not have the courage to do so because it does not believe the deal to be a vote-winner. If the BJP-led NDA wins, it will not be because of the deal, but because of the mismanagement of the nation over four years.

Second: the Congress tried desperately to get BJP support for the deal, and is still propping up former national security adviser Brajesh Mishra in order to try and break BJP unity. Would the deal or the Congress have become communal if the BJP had supported it?

The most lurid accusation is charging the CPI[M] with supporting "communal" forces because it opposes the deal. The Congress has a very convenient memory. The last time that a government was defeated on the floor of the House, the Congress and the BJP voted together — to bring down the V P Singh government. Did that make Congress, and Rajiv Gandhi, who was leader of the party then, communal?

During the term of the V P Singh government the Marxists and the BJP were allies, supporting Singh. They had weekly dinners, from which Harkishan Surjeet and L K Advani would emerge, smiling and laughing for the cameras. Did that make Surjeet communal? Why should Prakash Karat become communal because he is against the nuclear deal, for reasons, incidentally, different from the BJP? You have to be very arid, mentally, and believe as well that Indian politicians and voters have nothing called a memory chip in their brains in order to market such logic.

It would take a very inept government to lose a test on the floor of the House that it had sought. Dr Manmohan Singh has brought down his majority from over a hundred to perhaps five or less, but surely he could not have dragged it into negative territory. The real test, however, is not a contest for 272 MPs in this Parliament, but for 272 MPs in the next one. Politicians will decide the fate of the Congress in the coming days. Voters will decide its fate in the coming months.


M J Akbar is Chairman and Director of Publications, Covert
 
The nuclear deal has its advantages and its disadvantages.

The deal will give India the much needed energy, even though it will still not be able to meet the demands, but it is better than nothing. The deal is vague in many parts, which the Indian newspapers claim is to India's advantage.

The deal does not cover the ''strategic'' reactors including the fast breeder reactors that operate on Thorium.

The deal or should I say the appendages, like the 123 is but the back-door ensuring that India cannot undertake a nuclear test and thus indirectly the provisions of the NPT is covered. The Hyde Act is also an interesting input that restricts India.

Therefore, strategic reactors can work overtime, but it would be to no avail.

That is in so far as what the comments that are appearing from ''experts''. The fact that there are two distinct points of view - for and against - does indicate each have an agenda and thus the truth is at stake.

The most of the Indian newspapers are running a blitz in favour of the deal and that is what makes the whole thing suspicious.

From the time of the Congress split, the vote bank politics has become a cottage industry - woo the people of Islamic faith and then when the elections are over, forget all about them or just throw some crumbs. This is what most political parties do, excepting the BJP. BJP does the reverse, scare the Hindus!

It is to the credit of the Indian voters of all religious hues to have realised that this vote bank politics is fooling all to the detriment of both the groups and more so, the country! Even so, the political parties don't give up the game.

Maywati raised the bogey that the deal is against the interest of people of the Islamic faith. She conveniently did not explain how? She left it unsaid that it was because the deal was with the US that it would not please people of the Islamic faith. If that were the case, how is the nation which is the custodian of Islam's two most holy sites, Saudi Arabia, the client state of the US? This is how the politicians fool all. The Samajwadi Party, which claims to be the champion of people of the Islamic faith, has jumped ship and has joined hands with the Congress (till now there was great acrimony) to support the deal! In short, this is total political chicanery and immorality. But then when was there morals in politics.

It is true that the Islamic clerics pretend to be the "face and voice of Islam". Their rantings is not the real voice of Islam. If it were so, then the BJP and allies would not have won in Bihar or Karnataka, where the Islamic adherents are in sizeable numbers. This means that the Islamic faith people have seen the game and what is more, the BJP has realised that divisive politics will not work. That is why, the BJP is making great efforts to implement policies with the Islamic people in mind. A good start, but then there is the adage - leopards don't change their spots.

As far as the deal is concerned, the people of India are not divided - they are totally confused, be they Hindu, Islam followers, Christians, Sikhs, Buddhists or whatever.

Thus, it is still not clear if the deal is in the interest of India and secondly, it is not anti people of the Islamic faith. Though the political parties are fooling both the people of India as also the people of the Islamic faith of India.
 
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