Work on AMCA to begin by Mid 2011

[Dash]

Oke see the link
rian.ru/defense_safety/20101007/283085938.html
And already one thread is running which says FGFA will not be copy of T50

achievements obtained during the creation of the T-50 will be used when creating a new machine

Which shows FGFA will be different from PAK FA..

And as far India contributing to Airframes via composite for FGFA..
there is a report

PAKFA: India, Russia Likely to Sign Co-Development Agreement in December 2010 | India Defence

I am not sure whether this will contribute to stealth technology... Since composite will be applied on Airframe i am hoping it will contribute to Stealth.. feel free to disagree...

And sirjee coming to your regular bashing.. on drag and AoA... how many planes did we create so far?.. While other players are Especially Dassault gave AoA 26 for Mirages and they have good experience of developing Fighters prior to this...

You have to understand that this is our first attempt in doing so and issues will crop up.. We have just got a consultancy ... which shows we are sailing alone so far... while others have got help from each other... Secondly one suggestion i will give you is.. Only if you work on the project you will understand how difficult it is.. Just seeing couple of reports and hearing from IAF speech you cant come to a conclusion how difficult the Program was... When DrDo Fails on Missile test we criticize it .. but you know how difficult it is to develop a missile without the facilities which others are having?? And criticizing is the easiest of all .. when people always tend to forget the achievements... Sit calm and see how Tejas started and how much it has come over.. As for Tejas-2 i have full confident that they will give a super bird... And they must have studied the issues by now and would have worked out on a solution... which will eventually go into Tejas-2... Even Microsoft releases several Patches after its every OS release which has got 3 decade of exp on OS alone.. there is nothing wrong if we run into some of the issues than a Show stopper....


So sit and relax AMCA will be a good product... i have full confidence on HAL-ADA.. If IAF doesnt have the confidence this project will not have gone to them again

Buddy, FGFA cant be completely different plane, the design of PAKFA was frozen long back, max change is its 2 seater, but that will not change the basic design.

We might change the sub systems and avionics, but expect a same plane as far as airframe, engine and Radar is concerned.

 

[angeldemon_007]

by mid - 2011, What HAL will have to start on a 5th gen AMCA ??/ Even the design requires a lot of input and i don't think HAL has enough technical know-how to design a stealthy 5th-gen fighter. I think HAL claims this b/c by mid-2011 they believe they will get the design of FGFA by that time and so they will start work. I would really like to believe that by mid-2011 HAL gets the technical know-how to design AMCA. If HAL continues as planned we should use GE 414 for earlier version of AMCA. We are still far away from developing our own aesa and engine(kaveri). The work of tejas mark2 is also actually stalled.
Apart from this we should include some of our private sector and encourage more and more RnD. Apart from this we should be ready to do some investment. I have read at many places, govt sanctioned 2 billion $ for the project. By the way money is not sanctioned yet, it is actually the money demanded by HAL(ADA). But 2 billion $ is nothing, we have to be ready to be ready to invest 5-10 times more than this. Apart from this we should do partnership with the company who wins the MMRCA project for this project.
WE SHOULD NOT BE OVERCONFIDENT. IF WE CLAIM THIS, JUST BASED ON THE DEVELOPMENT OF LCA, THEN WE ARE JUST FOOLING OURSELVES.

 

[jagjitnatt]

by mid - 2011, What HAL will have to start on a 5th gen AMCA ??/ Even the design requires a lot of input and i don't think HAL has enough technical know-how to design a stealthy 5th-gen fighter. I think HAL claims this b/c by mid-2011 they believe they will get the design of FGFA by that time and so they will start work. I would really like to believe that by mid-2011 HAL gets the technical know-how to design AMCA. If HAL continues as planned we should use GE 414 for earlier version of AMCA. We are still far away from developing our own aesa and engine(kaveri). The work of tejas mark2 is also actually stalled.
Apart from this we should include some of our private sector and encourage more and more RnD. Apart from this we should be ready to do some investment. I have read at many places, govt sanctioned 2 billion $ for the project. By the way money is not sanctioned yet, it is actually the money demanded by HAL(ADA). But 2 billion $ is nothing, we have to be ready to be ready to invest 5-10 times more than this. Apart from this we should do partnership with the company who wins the MMRCA project for this project.
WE SHOULD NOT BE OVERCONFIDENT. IF WE CLAIM THIS, JUST BASED ON THE DEVELOPMENT OF LCA, THEN WE ARE JUST FOOLING OURSELVES.

You know what, you're right. ADA, HAL doesn't have enough expertise to create a 5th gen fighter aircraft. And its not just about their incapability, its that they don't know what to create. The common body between IAF, DRDO, HAL, ADA is missing.
They need someone who can define what a 5th gen fighter is and how to go about doing it.

I wish I was working for ADA or HAL, would have helped with all I could have. Oh plz, hire me HAL.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

You know what, you're right. ADA, HAL doesn't have enough expertise to create a 5th gen fighter aircraft. And its not just about their incapability, its that they don't know what to create. The common body between IAF, DRDO, HAL, ADA is missing.
They need someone who can define what a 5th gen fighter is and how to go about doing it.

I wish I was working for ADA or HAL, would have helped with all I could have. Oh plz, hire me HAL.

Actually there is one..remember our MoD.....or the ministry of Incompetence?

 

[jagjitnatt]

Actually there is one..remember our MoD.....or the ministry of Incompetence?

Yeah, but isn't that full of Dumbos?

I so wanna be an engineer working on AMCA. I know I can help them, but no ones gonna allow me to.

 

[sathya]

the targets for horizontal growth of LCA will be mk2 and the vertical growth will be AMCA .
better we start thinking about how to design early, than to wait for someone to help us.. that way our knowledge base will be growing
we can take help anytime..

 

[angeldemon_007]

better we start thinking about how to design early, than to wait for someone to help us..
Yeah you are right, its an ideal way, but India has wasted a lot of time and now she is standing at a point where her neighbors are growing at a very fast rate. We have no choice, we have to grow by any means we can and its not bad to build plane with others help. Even typhoon was made jointly by 4 countries. Saab wouldn't have made gripen without US help.

 

[conworldus]

You are the most realistic talking Indian on this forum. Hats off to that.

For 2 reasons!
1. they haven't shown anything to have faith yet, because LCA is still just a prototype and nothing more. Let them field a capable LCA MK2 version, that offers all they promised capabilities and then I will have faith that they can do more.
2. it seems they doing the same mistakes they did with LCA again. Overestimating their capabilities, dreaming to be as good as Russian, or western counterparts.



Only because of the windtunnel model? I have some big doubts! Just look at LCA again, the design was decided long ago and we saw several prototypes with changes, but it is reported and even confirmed by officials, that it still has drag issues. If we can't develop an in comparison simple fighter design, are we really able to design a 5. gen fighter, where the design not only have to be very aerodynamic, but also offers a very low RCS with stealth shapings?
Btw, kingdurgaking is wrong about FGFA, because the design is not Indian, but Russian and most likely highly based on Pak Fa.




Yes we do have experience in composites and software, that's exactly why it is often said that the Indian contribution into FGFA will be in these fields only, but not in main / stealth designs, NG radar, or engines techs, simply because we haven't even mastered these in way simpler terms at LCA.
Mayavi is mainly developed by the Israeli Elbit company and involves only some Indian parts and be it MMR, nor the AESA development, both ran into troubles and we had to search for international partners. Same story with Kaveri engine too!



Are you sure about that?
Isn't AMCA planed to be an twin engine, stealth fighter, with AESA radar, supermanouverability with TVC, SC capabilities and latest avionics, so where is the difference to Pak Fa and F22?
The only differences will be the smaller size and possibly a higher Indian content, but not even that is a real point, because we could use the LCA AESA partnership to increase the content in FGFA too. Think about LCA MK2 with Israeli Elta AESA and Mayavi EWS partnerships for 2014 and improved versions of them for FGFA instead of the Russian versions for 2017. Not to forget that we could use the Kaveri - Snecma development, to use the engine on Rafale and later LCA versions.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for LCA and indigenous developments, but it is totally unrealistic imo, to jump into the next development, without even getting LCA development done. Especially when it's so unnecessary as AMCA and I don't want to see us making the same mistakes again.
LCA MK2 mass production starts only by 2014 if everything goes well and it's operational service starts 1, or 2 years later. FGFA will only start by 2017, so on what basis they want to start AMCA development next year?

 

[rubyjackass]

You know what, you're right. ADA, HAL doesn't have enough expertise to create a 5th gen fighter aircraft. And its not just about their incapability, its that they don't know what to create. The common body between IAF, DRDO, HAL, ADA is missing.
They need someone who can define what a 5th gen fighter is and how to go about doing it.

I wish I was working for ADA or HAL, would have helped with all I could have. Oh plz, hire me HAL.

not worth it man. seriously... they will screw you up. you cannot mend them.

 

[ptltejas]

I guess when we all are talking about stealth.... if it is a new concept it will take hell time to develop... but if some one has invented it though we dont know the technical details but a basic know-how will be available .... as far as stealth technology for india should be possible thats why HAL was confident enough to take it on there shoulders.. if they dont have any know how they would have surely raised hands.. I guess even India contributing for FGFA mainly on airframes/composites shows india's knowledge ... so what i feel is that we should not underestimate our own capabilities...

The stealth includes invisibleness on raddar. Its depend on one design if plane is thin and corners are such which reflect waves other side its first requirement. second is material if metal used that could reflect waves as it is however composite materials like kevlar may reduce it sharply. third is color the special color can reduce raddar by absorbing the same. Lca is also 1/3 Stealth in comparable planes. It can presume as material of composite in FGFA is of India we are having that. only deesign is the issue.

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

The stealth includes invisibleness on raddar. Its depend on one design if plane is thin and corners are such which reflect waves other side its first requirement. second is material if metal used that could reflect waves as it is however composite materials like kevlar may reduce it sharply. third is color the special color can reduce raddar by absorbing the same. Lca is also 1/3 Stealth in comparable planes. It can presume as material of composite in FGFA is of India we are having that. only deesign is the issue.

Nope,the stealth features provide reduced RADAR visibility and there are no aircrafts in the world which has stealth features that reduce RADAR visibility by a 100%...........
ALSO, TO

 

[ptltejas]

Nope,the stealth features provide reduced RADAR visibility and there are no aircrafts in the world which has stealth features that reduce RADAR visibility by a 100%...........
ALSO, TO

thanks and right but reduced raddar signature make pilot confused and thay can not identify the object. its enough and plane flying at 200meters not possible high energy raddar reach to it and catch more signals. the raddars of plane have no power to identify object. hoever hard to say about hell Airborne Raddars.

 

[ptltejas]

If Td model ready by 2012 like MCA, Likeas LCA Technology Demostration model, If design frize by mid 2011, and GE-414 engines used for the TD. Technology demostration not have more system and electronics and only consists minimum requirement to fly and control. It can be ready by 2016 on ready of kaveri engine and electronics systems and sub system. By 2020 to 2022 it is possible to change all old fleet of jaguars and miraj-2000.

 

[SpArK]

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

thanks and right but reduced raddar signature make pilot confused and thay can not identify the object. its enough and plane flying at 200meters not possible high energy raddar reach to it and catch more signals. the raddars of plane have no power to identify object. hoever hard to say about hell Airborne Raddars.

Bro,I'm not an expert so please pardon me if the reply is inadequate...Reduced RADAR signature of an aircraft does not mean that it will acquire the shape of an other object on the other pilots' HUD i.e the pilot sees a smaller blip on the HUD rather than a bigger one.So,no question of the chasing pilot,getting confused about the lead aircraft.The emboldened sentence-I do not understand.The underlined sentence is wrong,i.e a camera(modern) can detect the movement of an ant as well as a human but the ant is less visible when compared to the human as his surface area accounts for greater reflection.But this does not mean that the ant is invincible..........Also i could not understand your last sentence....