Work on AMCA to begin by Mid 2011

[Gene]

any official confirmation?
If all go well,by 2025 Pakfa & Amca will rock indian skies..

 

[sancho]

Once the final design is frozen .....given our experiences with radars, composites ,EW suites , and most other AC parts ...picked up from the LCA project.....only the engines remain an issue ....if the AESA can be acquired from Isreal and the GE 414 chosen over the Kaveri.....then the first prototype can be produced before 2018....

First of all, what about stealth, isn't that the main issue anyway? Look at how many years countries like the US, Russians and even Europeans are working on it.
Secondly, which experience? There is no indigenously developed radar in service yet, EW suits are mainly foreign, with some minor Indian parts only, engine develeopment is a complete failure. So basicly we start at ZERO in this development, all we can hope is to get as much know how from Pak Fa development and to find good partners, othwise this development is going nowhere.

 

[MAFIAN GOD]

I THINK NO COUNTRY SHOULD BE ALLOWED IN MANUFACTURE OF THE PLANE RIGHT NOW.WE MUST TRY THIS ON OUR OWN KEEPING HOPES AND FAITHS ON OUR SCIENTISTS.
I HOPE WE WILL DELIVER A BETTER KAVERI ENGINE IN NEXT DECADE.

 

[Urbanized Greyhound]

First of all, what about stealth, isn't that the main issue anyway? Look at how many years countries like the US, Russians and even Europeans are working on it.
Secondly, which experience? There is no indigenously developed radar in service yet, EW suits are mainly foreign, with some minor Indian parts only, engine develeopment is a complete failure. So basicly we start at ZERO in this development, all we can hope is to get as much know how from Pak Fa development and to find good partners, othwise this development is going nowhere.

1) well stealth is certainly one of the key areas ...though ideally our JV with Russia might enable us to gain valuable design inputs .....also dont wanna sound overtly optimistic but why not repose a little more faith in the ADA.....from the media reports and documtrs of the R& D
centres and design simulation facilities set up in Bangalore....which were heavily involved in the creation of PV 's of the LCA......and keeping in mind that the government is yet to consider the funding amount..... we should certainly be able to create a genuine stealth design....also the wind tunnel testing model was a demonstration of the basic stealth features ( semi stealth).....it had internal weapons bays etc.....the rest is successfully producing a prototype based on a design....which might throw up industrial challenges ....

2)we definitely have experience in composites and critical on- flight softwares like mission comps .....also about EW suites....dunno how systems like Mayavi compare with the ones on say Israeli Ra'am /Sufa or say Russian Flankers / J10 fighters but we do have a basic experience ,wont be starting from scratch....we can either invest and build upgraded versions or if the time-frames don't match we can install Israeli EW suites .....as far as the Avionics go....the DRDO has an ongoing AESA program ...if it does not materialise in the given time frame the IAF can opt for a Russian /Israeli one.....

though the DRDO plans to install the AESA on Tejas first ...let us see if it is successful first......

two things are clear though .....the AMCA cannot hope to match the Raptor equipment for equipment......in the time span specified...realistically we ought to be content with the four minimum reqs for 5th gen ....Stealth , Supermanouverability, STOVL and Supercruise.....Dont see any advanced EW or armaments.....

and we should factor our thinking to mass produce a cheap version of a fifth gen jet...with capabilities as close to the yet to be revealed JXX as possible .....and concentrate on rapid production to maintain the credible numbers in keeping with our threat perceptions on the western and specifically Eastern flank......the production and testing stages ( the basic reasons for the inordinate LCA delay ) should be considerably reduced as the IAF will be overseeing this project from the inception.....

 

[kingdurgaking]

First of all, what about stealth, isn't that the main issue anyway? Look at how many years countries like the US, Russians and even Europeans are working on it.
Secondly, which experience? There is no indigenously developed radar in service yet, EW suits are mainly foreign, with some minor Indian parts only, engine develeopment is a complete failure. So basicly we start at ZERO in this development, all we can hope is to get as much know how from Pak Fa development and to find good partners, othwise this development is going nowhere.

I guess when we all are talking about stealth.... if it is a new concept it will take hell time to develop... but if some one has invented it though we dont know the technical details but a basic know-how will be available .... as far as stealth technology for india should be possible thats why HAL was confident enough to take it on there shoulders.. if they dont have any know how they would have surely raised hands.. I guess even India contributing for FGFA mainly on airframes/composites shows india's knowledge ... so what i feel is that we should not underestimate our own capabilities...

 

[Urbanized Greyhound]

I guess when we all are talking about stealth.... if it is a new concept it will take hell time to develop... but if some one has invented it though we dont know the technical details but a basic know-how will be available .... as far as stealth technology for india should be possible thats why HAL was confident enough to take it on there shoulders.. if they dont have any know how they would have surely raised hands.. I guess even India contributing for FGFA mainly on airframes/composites shows india's knowledge ... so what i feel is that we should not underestimate our own capabilities...

Good point bro....we should recognize capability where necessary....surely leaving aside producing a stealth Airframe ....our scientists are not so incompetent as to not even be able to create a stealth design from scratch.....given adequate funding .....we have everything here in india now from wind tunnel testing bases to design simulation software centres....creating a stealth design should certainly be a doable job for the Design analysts here.....

 

[satishkumarcsc]

I think the French will be the best partner to co-develop the AMCA besides the Russians. Only these 2 countries have the technology that we dont have. Mainly the Engine tech. So it would be wiser to go with them.

 

[sancho]

but why not repose a little more faith in the ADA / HAL

For 2 reasons!
1. they haven't shown anything to have faith yet, because LCA is still just a prototype and nothing more. Let them field a capable LCA MK2 version, that offers all they promised capabilities and then I will have faith that they can do more.
2. it seems they doing the same mistakes they did with LCA again. Overestimating their capabilities, dreaming to be as good as Russian, or western counterparts.

we should certainly be able to create a genuine stealth design

Only because of the windtunnel model? I have some big doubts! Just look at LCA again, the design was decided long ago and we saw several prototypes with changes, but it is reported and even confirmed by officials, that it still has drag issues. If we can't develop an in comparison simple fighter design, are we really able to design a 5. gen fighter, where the design not only have to be very aerodynamic, but also offers a very low RCS with stealth shapings?
Btw, kingdurgaking is wrong about FGFA, because the design is not Indian, but Russian and most likely highly based on Pak Fa.

2)we definitely have experience in composites and critical on- flight softwares like mission comps .....also about EW suites....dunno how systems like Mayavi compare with the ones on say Israeli Ra'am /Sufa or say Russian Flankers / J10 fighters but we do have a basic experience ,wont be starting from scratch...
...though the DRDO plans to install the AESA on Tejas first ...let us see if it is successful first...

Yes we do have experience in composites and software, that's exactly why it is often said that the Indian contribution into FGFA will be in these fields only, but not in main / stealth designs, NG radar, or engines techs, simply because we haven't even mastered these in way simpler terms at LCA.
Mayavi is mainly developed by the Israeli Elbit company and involves only some Indian parts and be it MMR, nor the AESA development, both ran into troubles and we had to search for international partners. Same story with Kaveri engine too!

two things are clear though .....the AMCA cannot hope to match the Raptor equipment for equipment......in the time span specified...realistically we ought to be content with the four minimum reqs for 5th gen ....Stealth , Supermanouverability, STOVL and Supercruise.....Dont see any advanced EW or armaments...

Are you sure about that?
Isn't AMCA planed to be an twin engine, stealth fighter, with AESA radar, supermanouverability with TVC, SC capabilities and latest avionics, so where is the difference to Pak Fa and F22?
The only differences will be the smaller size and possibly a higher Indian content, but not even that is a real point, because we could use the LCA AESA partnership to increase the content in FGFA too. Think about LCA MK2 with Israeli Elta AESA and Mayavi EWS partnerships for 2014 and improved versions of them for FGFA instead of the Russian versions for 2017. Not to forget that we could use the Kaveri - Snecma development, to use the engine on Rafale and later LCA versions.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for LCA and indigenous developments, but it is totally unrealistic imo, to jump into the next development, without even getting LCA development done. Especially when it's so unnecessary as AMCA and I don't want to see us making the same mistakes again.
LCA MK2 mass production starts only by 2014 if everything goes well and it's operational service starts 1, or 2 years later. FGFA will only start by 2017, so on what basis they want to start AMCA development next year?

 

[Urbanized Greyhound]

^^ fair enough analysis bro....guess we just have to wait and see.....

 

[kingdurgaking]

Sancho.. FGFA is totally different from PAKFA... though some subsystems like Radar, engine etc will be common but the design itself will be entirely different... One of the issue with FGFA between Russian and HAL was HAL wanted to contribute on the Areas of composite which it had mastered... not sure whether this issue was resolved in the dialogue regarding the work share... I was referring to this confidence of HAL-ADA...

 

[kingdurgaking]

Secondly Sancho i dont like your bashing on HAL-ADA..
I would like to highlight that some of there over estimation like Composites, Fly by wire , avionics are successful and is very advanced compared to others.. secondly in areas of engine, Radars and other system you cant blame them as it was difficult for them to set up the industry base in the first case.. They estimated there capabilities based on the availability in the market which got toppled because of sanctions...

If you are doing some project management you will do resource capability analysis based on the availability on the market not in house availability only..

As far as one mistake they have done is they never freezed the requirement and that is where they are getting bullied.. Your frustration cant be valued because we dont have proper funds as it is available in West, Europe or Russia for any development.. We are given only limited funds and we cant get everything straight and perfect at the same time.. See the SU27 development and how it is now...
Research and Development will take time and we have to digest it... Only Brains are not enough for doing R&D... there are lot of other factors..

 

[sancho]

Sancho.. FGFA is totally different from PAKFA... though some subsystems like Radar, engine etc will be common but the design itself will be entirely different... One of the issue with FGFA between Russian and HAL was HAL wanted to contribute on the Areas of composite which it had mastered... not sure whether this issue was resolved in the dialogue regarding the work share... I was referring to this confidence of HAL-ADA...

Not sure where you get this info from, but from what I heard so far, the main diffrerence will be twin seat config and it possibly looks like this:

Secondly Sancho i dont like your bashing on HAL-ADA..
I would like to highlight that some of there over estimation like Composites, Fly by wire , avionics are successful and is very advanced compared to others..

secondly in areas of engine, Radars and other system you cant blame them as it was difficult for them to set up the industry base in the first case.. They estimated there capabilities based on the availability in the market which got toppled because of sanctions...

Who else would you say is responsible for the design failures that cases these drag issues and than LCA can't achieve the planed speed, or AoAs as it was reported?
True, there are others to blame too and I am blaming them all for not doing their jobs correctly, wasting money and now jumping to the next development. It's like you pay someone to build your house, but when its half they get a better paid job and leaving this site as it is.
So no matter what they achieved till now, it is by far not enough, because they promised and we expected more than a prototype for that much money and time.

 

[kingdurgaking]

Not sure where you get this info from, but from what I heard so far, the main diffrerence will be twin seat config and it possibly looks like this:

Who else would you say is responsible for the design failures that cases these drag issues and than LCA can't achieve the planed speed, or AoAs as it was reported?
True, there are others to blame too and I am blaming them all for not doing their jobs correctly, wasting money and now jumping to the next development. It's like you pay someone to build your house, but when its half they get a better paid job and leaving this site as it is.
So no matter what they achieved till now, it is by far not enough, because they promised and we expected more than a prototype for that much money and time.

Oke see the link
rian.ru/defense_safety/20101007/283085938.html
And already one thread is running which says FGFA will not be copy of T50

achievements obtained during the creation of the T-50 will be used when creating a new machine

Which shows FGFA will be different from PAK FA..

And as far India contributing to Airframes via composite for FGFA..
there is a report

PAKFA: India, Russia Likely to Sign Co-Development Agreement in December 2010 | India Defence

I am not sure whether this will contribute to stealth technology... Since composite will be applied on Airframe i am hoping it will contribute to Stealth.. feel free to disagree...

And sirjee coming to your regular bashing.. on drag and AoA... how many planes did we create so far?.. While other players are Especially Dassault gave AoA 26 for Mirages and they have good experience of developing Fighters prior to this...

You have to understand that this is our first attempt in doing so and issues will crop up.. We have just got a consultancy ... which shows we are sailing alone so far... while others have got help from each other... Secondly one suggestion i will give you is.. Only if you work on the project you will understand how difficult it is.. Just seeing couple of reports and hearing from IAF speech you cant come to a conclusion how difficult the Program was... When DrDo Fails on Missile test we criticize it .. but you know how difficult it is to develop a missile without the facilities which others are having?? And criticizing is the easiest of all .. when people always tend to forget the achievements... Sit calm and see how Tejas started and how much it has come over.. As for Tejas-2 i have full confident that they will give a super bird... And they must have studied the issues by now and would have worked out on a solution... which will eventually go into Tejas-2... Even Microsoft releases several Patches after its every OS release which has got 3 decade of exp on OS alone.. there is nothing wrong if we run into some of the issues than a Show stopper....


So sit and relax AMCA will be a good product... i have full confidence on HAL-ADA.. If IAF doesnt have the confidence this project will not have gone to them again

 

[FSLN]

Since composite will be applied on Airframe i am hoping it will contribute to Stealth.. feel free to disagree...

if not major changes to the original design then Yes...BUT the stealth design cant change that much, since a Su-27 made entirely of "composites" can not and will not be more stealthy than a all aspect stealth design aircraft...

 

[kingdurgaking]

if not major changes to the original design then Yes...BUT the stealth design cant change that much, since a Su-27 made entirely of "composites" can not and will not be more stealthy than a all aspect stealth design aircraft...

You have any link for the composites on SU27.... i really have concern over it as SU 30 MKI as only 6% of composites on its air frame.. which is the new version compared to SU27