Work harder to beat the Bangalore ,Beijing challenge: Obama to students

[below_freezing]

I keep hearing these stereotypes of fat, lazy Americans living off the genius and hard work of immigrants. That's just nonsense. Let me just dispel two myths right here:

- First, people claim that many (most?) university research assistants are Chinese/Indian. That may be true but it's not because these people are smarter than their American/European colleagues. It's only because the Americans find better paying jobs in industry, and the Europeans return home, while the Indians and Chinese work as cheap labor for the research professor and stick around to get their green cards.

- Secondly, launching a startup is ridiculously easy in the US. You can literally launch a startup in one afternoon, so all these statistics about immigrants launching startups are misleading.

What matters, ultimately, are research publications in basic science and patented technological products and, in these matters, Americans (of all ethnicities) are doing just fine without first-generation immigrants.

Research assistants are a form of support for graduate students. The alternative is teaching assistant.

US is doing good because it has the capital to buy human resources. This won't keep up. 1/3 of all existing scientific literature is Russian despite huge amounts of US funds used to buy former Soviet scientists. Just because Australia is a scientific wasteland doesn't mean other nations are as well.

 

[Developereo]

and now the trend is come to west get you degree some experience plus citizenship then go back to work in a multinational in your own country and be a bridge between both the nations.

I highlighted the part in your post that disproves your own assertion. The Indians only go back once they take out the insurance policy -- Western citizenship.

I again say, I do not agree that Indian student is" more" hardworking. Perhaps it is our environment which forces them to do so.

That is the crucial point. The reason Indian and Chinese students may be doing better than the "average" American, as deckinraj has rightly pointed out, has more to do with culture and the home environment than the education system itself. Traditionally, Indian and Chinese families put great emphasis on education, so their kids are more likely to do better academically. The same stereotype is also true of Jewish, Korean, etc. cultures, and those students also tend to do better than average.

it's true that American present generations are not as smart as their past generations.

Don't get too happy just yet. There are indications that second and subsequent generation immigrants kids are not as driven as their immigrant ancestors. After a few generations, they are fully "Americanized", i.e. eveybody wants the easy life as a rock star or sports hero!

Just because Australia is a scientific wasteland doesn't mean other nations are as well.

Actually, given its tiny size of 20 million, Australia produces an impressive number of world class personalities in media, sports and the sciences.

 

[Ras]

Well.....You gt me wrong. My post was not directed towards Indian student vs USA student. It was more on Indian educational syatem vs USA educational syatem.

Well....you may be right that there are Indian professionals in USA but most of them are doing work in/for/with USA. So basically India is not getting direct benefit nor it should. For example, an American-Indian for nobel in Chemistry but this does not mean India has done exceptional in chemical sciences. The system is of USA.

I again say, I do not agree that Indian student is" more" hardworking. Perhaps it is our environment which forces them to do so. Also I am nowhere negating the labour done by our countrymen. Surely they have performed outstanding.

Anyways, IMO Obama's comment was not specific to Indian education syatem. It was more political in nature.

India cannot claim credit for an Indian origin person who develops his work in the US because he was born in India or as in many cases now if his parents were Indian. That person is an American and America will claim credit for his work.

As Mehsut Ozil told Turkey when they requested him to go play for Turkey instead of Germany...what he is today is because of Germany not Turkey so he will play for Germany.

 

[Sliver]

many Indians claiming about the supremacy of their education systems. Just a glance:

1) our system has produced the largest number of scientists in the world and the highest number of patents
2) I worked with Indian students and I can tell you their ethics regarding the class and tests are one of the lowest (I dont know if you are not taught about "quoting the source" but almost all the Indians calim they never did that in India)
3) the bachelors degree awarded by a second rung university is probably comparable to the best of your universities. To put it more bluntly, apart from the top range of universities in India (even in Pakistan and other coutries), the other universities simply do not churn out quality engineers or graduates. (this is a very well verified fact and everyone trying to decide admissions in US universities has an idea of it)

this is not to show you down or anything like that. It is just to show that there is a long way to go before your institutions mature. Many US universities have been around for more than a century. Surely their courses, methodologies etc have evolved since then and hence are much better placed.

All countries should complement each other and find a mutually beneficial path.

I find America bashing very hateful in this forum. An average american is facing unemployment right now and all he can see is lot of outsourcing. Still there are no fanatics or rallies going on to the extent that might be going on your countries. WE are only finding fault with ourselves and making us more competitive.

May the best man win.

 

[majesticpankaj]

i am agree with you on most of the things, but the first line of ur post is said by US president (actually implied one)

 

[justanobserver]

@Sliver

There is no doubt that American grad and post grad education is absolutely top notch ! I mean the kind of facilities these institutions have like particle accelerators and stuff!

However High school education is a completely different, with policies like 'no child gets left behind' , as pointed by another member.

Just look into the syllabus of boards (in India) like CBSE and see how subjects like advanced calculus and rotational dynamics are introduced very early !

I worked with Indian students and I can tell you their ethics regarding the class and tests are one of the lowest

Maybe because of the insane amounts of competition in India.

Competition here is more intense than you can imagine, take GRE for example, scores of 1400+ are quite common here, one reason why Indians aren't completely flooding US univs is because of monetary constraints.

 

[Ras]

Maybe because of the insane amounts of competition in India.

Competition here is more intense than you can imagine, take GRE for example, scores of 1400+ are quite common here, one reason why Indians aren't completely flooding US univs is because of monetary constraints.

Not an excuse..a cheat is a cheat and remains a cheat.

 

[Anonymous_Clown]

I find America bashing very hateful in this forum. An average american is facing unemployment right now and all he can see is lot of outsourcing. Still there are no fanatics or rallies going on to the extent that might be going on your countries. WE are only finding fault with ourselves and making us more competitive.

May the best man win.

And this is why I appreciate America. Trust me, most Indians adore the USA and look up to it. In a worldwide survey conducted recently, Indians had one of the most favourable opinion of the USA among many countries polled, even when worldwide American popularity is at an all time low due to Iraq etc.

Pakistan, on the other hand, is massively anti-American. The common Pakistani hates America, and also hates the Pakistani Government for being allied with America.

Indians occasionally do say things like 'education system of US is inferior', but that image is created by Americans who keep lamenting on their education system and keep comparing it against Indian and Chinese systems! That is not really 'anti-Americanism', and I do not agree with that statement by the way.

 

[Developereo]

And this is why I appreciate America. Trust me, most Indians adore the USA and look up to it. In a worldwide survey conducted recently, Indians had one of the most favourable opinion of the USA among many countries polled, even when worldwide American popularity is at an all time low due to Iraq etc.

Pakistan, on the other hand, is massively anti-American. The common Pakistani hates America, and also hates the Pakistani Government for being allied with America.

Indians occasionally do say things like 'education system of US is inferior', but that image is created by Americans who keep lamenting on their education system and keep comparing it against Indian and Chinese systems! That is not really 'anti-Americanism', and I do not agree with that statement by the way.

To put your sycophantic post in perspective, these sentiments you pointed out are mostly about American foreign policy.

It would be fair to say that most people, especially in poor countries like India and Pakistan, admire the American way of life and the way Americans have achieved their success.

 

[Anonymous_Clown]

To put your sycophantic post in perspective, these sentiments you pointed out are mostly about American foreign policy.

It would be fair to say that most people, especially in poor countries like India and Pakistan, admire the American way of life and the way Americans have achieved their success.

Watch it. Giving credit where credit is due is not "sycophancy". I don't need to be "sycophantic". India, Indians, Indian leaders, Indian Government, do not need to be "Sycophantic" to the USA. Pakistan and Pakistanis might certainlyneed to, for obvious reasons.

Coming to the point, my post was not about American foreign policy at all. In general, anti-Americanism in India is almost non-existant. In Pakistan, it is rife. If you are honest, you will admit this.

I am not passing judgement on whether Pakistani public's anti-Americanism is good, bad, justified, unjustified, whatever. But the fact is, the average Pakistani is highly anti-American, while the average Indian is not. That is a fact.

 

[Developereo]

Watch it. Giving credit where credit is due is not "sycophancy". I don't need to be "sycophantic". India, Indians, Indian leaders, Indian Government, do not need to be "Sycophantic" to the USA. Pakistan and Pakistanis might certainlyneed to, for obvious reasons.

Coming to the point, my post was not about American foreign policy at all. In general, anti-Americanism in India is almost non-existant. In Pakistan, it is rife. If you are honest, you will admit this.

I am not passing judgement on whether Pakistani public's anti-Americanism is good, bad, justified, unjustified, whatever. But the fact is, the average Pakistani is highly anti-American, while the average Indian is not. That is a fact.

There is no point me repeating myself, since you clearly missed the point my post the first time.

Clearly the superior Indian education system does not extend to English comprehension...

 

[nitesh28]

Guys there is nothing to debate and their is nothing new in this.

It is natural that someone who is less privleged will always have a greater drive to work hard and succeed. and those who are priveliged always dislike when the don trodden or poor ppl surpass them.

 

[Avatar]

Yes, that's probably why they lead the world in science and technology.

Sir, It makes me curious to know what sadistic pleasure you derive from such statements.

 

[Avatar]

From personal experience, I have studied in Indian institutes with people from all over the world. They even included Koreans who could not speak a sentence in English ...And they (Koreans) were here, just because of the significantly higher standards in Math. The international students told us that in their country they were learning alphabets when we were at basic math. Now, asking a question like why this difference has not made India the leader in science & technology ...is truly foolish.

 

[below_freezing]

many Indians claiming about the supremacy of their education systems. Just a glance:

1) our system has produced the largest number of scientists in the world and the highest number of patents
2) I worked with Indian students and I can tell you their ethics regarding the class and tests are one of the lowest (I dont know if you are not taught about "quoting the source" but almost all the Indians calim they never did that in India)
3) the bachelors degree awarded by a second rung university is probably comparable to the best of your universities. To put it more bluntly, apart from the top range of universities in India (even in Pakistan and other coutries), the other universities simply do not churn out quality engineers or graduates. (this is a very well verified fact and everyone trying to decide admissions in US universities has an idea of it)

this is not to show you down or anything like that. It is just to show that there is a long way to go before your institutions mature. Many US universities have been around for more than a century. Surely their courses, methodologies etc have evolved since then and hence are much better placed.

All countries should complement each other and find a mutually beneficial path.

I find America bashing very hateful in this forum. An average american is facing unemployment right now and all he can see is lot of outsourcing. Still there are no fanatics or rallies going on to the extent that might be going on your countries. WE are only finding fault with ourselves and making us more competitive.

May the best man win.

A Bachelor's degree issued by any university with the facilities to support research labs is essentially equivalent. What do you really think you learn with a bachelors? Very little without a professional degree like nursing, law, medicine or accounting. Even applied majors like engineering, computers and chemistry have many useless theoretical courses that will never be used again. Again, you're far overestimating the difference between bachelor's at different schools are. A Harvard bachelors may be slightly (only slightly) superior to one from Indiana State in terms of actual knowledge. What the Harvard bachelors is actually superior at, is soft skills and connections. However, Harvard Bachelors will never even come close to being as proficient in a subject as a Masters or PHD from even a tier 3 school, though that bachelors may make more money due to connections with rich and powerful people. No bachelor's degree student has the ability to do independent research and design in science and engineering without much more work experience than the time needed to just do a phd.

School ranking is also not quantified by quality of bachelor's degrees given.