With Two Planes, India To Raise Its First Tejas Squadron In July.

[punit]

I thought this portion was covered by HAL. Isnt Flight Testing Section of HAL responsible for validating these stuff before being handed over to IAF?

HAL dioes not bother with such minor things .. they are gift of god for us Indians !

 

[Abingdonboy]

Plz let me make it clear that in no way m indulging in any sort of controversy here but i really can not understand that fact that why IAF and not HAL is flying to resolve the issues like nose wheel vibrations, noise in the cockpit etc. These issues shud have been there from day one and revised ASQR has got nothing to do with it. On the contrary did these issue pop up later on due to some mods etc or what? All i seem to get is that its basically the training of pilots and preparing/training pilots for Tejas which has taken the precedence here as IAF can for time being live with these issues till FOC.

See, the ASQR is not exhaustive, it covers the minium standards a new plane has to meet so as to enter IAF service (AoA attainable, TWR, G limits, radar range, user specified accesories- LDP, HMD, IFR probe etc etc) and once in service the minor issues (if any) are worked on with the OEM by the IAF's ASTE. None of these minor issues with the LCA have any detrimental effect in the operational performance of the LCA and don't play any hinderance in the LCA acheiving the specified ASQRs.

Can you raise a squadron with 2 planes?

You can raise a SQN with one plane, it doesn't mean you operationalise that SQN with this number.

 

[Jackdaws]

How it is White Elephant May I ask ??

The plane is 30 years in the making. The sheer amount of resources in terms of man hours and dollars could have been utilized far better. By all means invest in R&D - but let the private industry do it - they tend to be more focused and deliver products on time. With the exception of ISRO, all other state-owned firms in India have always had delays. A country's skies can't depend on the hope that a new indigenous fighter will fulfill our needs. We are lucky we are good relations with the West - can you imagine if we have sanctions and couldn't import our weapons? Even in Kargil, it was the much maligned Bofors gun which made a big difference. I am glad the new Govt. is giving a fillip to the private sector to invest in Defence. Instead of HAL, do you think Tata or Mahindra or Reliance would have taken so long to develop the LCA?

 

[Abingdonboy]

To keep it away from anywhere where it risks an engagement with another plane

Why else?

Why in south India? Why not at its border with Pakistan or China, where it may get some real action?

This is where the first squadron of LCA will be deployed. It makes sense given the proximity to the NFTC and OEM in Bangalore.

Note there are another 100 on order ans they will be deployed where the IAF sees fit. 100% of the fighters can't be in the North along the borders, the IAF is charged with securing the entirety of Indian airspace and that includes the South and Central locations.

The plane is 30 years in the making

A completly silly figure that is touted by the LCA's critics. Considering the LCA project wasn't actually financed until 1992/3 with its first flight was in 2001 and induction in 2016 this is a perfectly reasonable timeline in line with almost any other 4.5 gen project from any of the world's leading aerospace OEMs especially when you consider the implications of sanctions and budge constraints along the way.

Even if it was 30 years (which it most certainly isn't) considering the non-existent industrial base that exisited prior to the LCA 30 years would still be a respectable timeline.


Also, let's not forget the ADA has in developed 4 different variants of the LCA- AF single seat, AF trainer, Navy single seat and Navy trainer. This is another impediment few aircraft projects face- the much hyped JF-17 to this day has but one variant (AF single seat).

The sheer amount of resources in terms of man hours and dollars could have been utilized far better. By all means invest in R&D

What utter horse$hit

1) The LCA budget has been run on a complete shoe string, do you many nations could produce a machine this capable for $2BN?
2) Knowledge is never wasted, the first of a kind project is always tough but the trickle down effects will be immense and in the long term the lessons learnt from the LCA will be built on.

The LCA has single handedly built the Indian aerospace industry, now to turn around and malign it is sheer stupidity.

but let the private industry do it

do you think Tata or Mahindra or Reliance would have taken so long to develop the LCA?

Now? No, becauese fo the work by HAL and the ADA in pioneering an supply/design ecosystem in India. Let's not kid ourselves, TATA has the funds to embark on such projects (its share capital is equvilanet to the GDP of some small nations) and yet they haven't even made a powered glider to date. "The private sector will step in" is a total fallacy.

 

[The BrOkEn HeArT]

This is where the first squadron of LCA will be deployed. It makes sense given the proximity to the NFTC and OEM in Bangalore.

Note there are another 100 on order ans they will be deployed where the IAF sees fit. 100% of the fighters can't be in the North along the borders, the IAF is charged with securing the entirety of Indian airspace and that includes the South and Central locations.


A completly silly figure that is touted by the LCA's critics. Considering the LCA project wasn't actually financed until 1992/3 with its first flight was in 2001 and induction in 2016 this is a perfectly reasonable timeline in line with almost any other 4.5 gen project from any of the world's leading aerospace OEMs especially when you consider the implications of sanctions and budge constraints along the way.

Even if it was 30 years (which it most certainly isn't) considering the non-existent industrial base that exisited prior to the LCA 30 years would still be a respectable timeline.


Also, let's not forget the ADA has in developed 4 different variants of the LCA- AF single seat, AF trainer, Navy single seat and Navy trainer. This is another impediment few aircraft projects face- the much hyped JF-17 to this day has but one variant (AF single seat).


What utter horse$hit

1) The LCA budget has been run on a complete shoe string, do you many nations could produce a machine this capable for $2BN?
2) Knowledge is never wasted, the first of a kind project is always tough but the trickle down effects will be immense and in the long term the lessons learnt from the LCA will be built on.

The LCA has single handedly built the Indian aerospace industry, now to turn around and malign it is sheer stupidity.




Now? No, becauese fo the work by HAL and the ADA in pioneering an supply/design ecosystem in India. Let's not kid ourselves, TATA has the funds to embark on such projects (its share capital is equvilanet to the GDP of some small nations) and yet they haven't even made a powered glider to date. "The private sector will step in" is a total fallacy.

May I ask in which generation we can put Tejas after completing all test successfully??

 

[Bhasad Singh Mundi]

the code base is gonna multiply now, from ghatak to amca

 

[Abingdonboy]

May I ask in which generation we can put Tejas after completing all test successfully??

FOC LCA= 4th gen

MK.1A= 4.5+ gen

 

[Jackdaws]

This is where the first squadron of LCA will be deployed. It makes sense given the proximity to the NFTC and OEM in Bangalore.

Note there are another 100 on order ans they will be deployed where the IAF sees fit. 100% of the fighters can't be in the North along the borders, the IAF is charged with securing the entirety of Indian airspace and that includes the South and Central locations.


A completly silly figure that is touted by the LCA's critics. Considering the LCA project wasn't actually financed until 1992/3 with its first flight was in 2001 and induction in 2016 this is a perfectly reasonable timeline in line with almost any other 4.5 gen project from any of the world's leading aerospace OEMs especially when you consider the implications of sanctions and budge constraints along the way.

Even if it was 30 years (which it most certainly isn't) considering the non-existent industrial base that exisited prior to the LCA 30 years would still be a respectable timeline.


Also, let's not forget the ADA has in developed 4 different variants of the LCA- AF single seat, AF trainer, Navy single seat and Navy trainer. This is another impediment few aircraft projects face- the much hyped JF-17 to this day has but one variant (AF single seat).


What utter horse$hit

1) The LCA budget has been run on a complete shoe string, do you many nations could produce a machine this capable for $2BN?


2) Knowledge is never wasted, the first of a kind project is always tough but the trickle down effects will be immense and in the long term the lessons learnt from the LCA will be built on.

The LCA has single handedly built the Indian aerospace industry, now to turn around and malign it is sheer stupidity.




Now? No, becauese fo the work by HAL and the ADA in pioneering an supply/design ecosystem in India. Let's not kid ourselves, TATA has the funds to embark on such projects (its share capital is equvilanet to the GDP of some small nations) and yet they haven't even made a powered glider to date. "The private sector will step in" is a total fallacy.

1. Aeronautical Development Agency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - started in 1984 specifically for LCA. How many LCAs are currently in use? In 32 years.

2. No one said knowledge is wasted. I just think the track record of most state run firms is pathetic because they are run by career bureaucrats and not headed by professionals specialized in that field.

3. Indian firms were not allowed to invest in the Defence sector till recently. How would they make a glider if they were not even allowed?

 

[Abingdonboy]

1. Aeronautical Development Agency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - started in 1984 specifically for LCA. How many LCAs are currently in use? In 32 years.

So establishment of the ADA is when you think the LCA design work started? You think this entirely new department began work from day one? Either way, you've proved my point- before the LCA there was almost no infrastructure in India for designing, testing,certifing and producing such a plane.

 

[shah1398]

As any OEM is charged with HAL has its own test pilots, as this is a state company/project the test pilots have come from the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) and pilots here are on deputation from the Indian Air Force and Indian Navy. The purpose of these pilots is to take a plane from prototype stage to a fully developed model ready to enter service with any AF that should so wish.

BUT once that LCA enters service it will be subject to the exact same scrutiny and operationalisation process as any other aircraft and this is done by the Indian Air Force's Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE). It is the responsibility of ASTE's test pilots and engineers to check every new aircraft model that enters service and crucially they are the ones who write the operational flight manuals, maintainence procedures and outline the training regime for the type.

At a later stage a few LCA will be handed over to Tactics and Air Combat Development Establishment (TACDE) and these are the guys who create the combat employment doctrine for every new type in IAF service. They push the machine to the very limits and create tactics and emplyment polcies that are applied for the entire AF.


To answer your question, once in IAF service offically it is up to the ASTE to take the new plane and operationalise it for the entire force.

See, the ASQR is not exhaustive, it covers the minium standards a new plane has to meet so as to enter IAF service (AoA attainable, TWR, G limits, radar range, user specified accesories- LDP, HMD, IFR probe etc etc) and once in service the minor issues (if any) are worked on with the OEM by the IAF's ASTE. None of these minor issues with the LCA have any detrimental effect in the operational performance of the LCA and don't play any hinderance in the LCA acheiving the specified ASQRs.

Sir totally agreed with what U highlighted but why the core issues concerning mainly to design like Nose Wheel Vibrations, Noise level in cockpit etc are being addressed by IAF pilots in a Squadron rather than in HAL? IAF's ASTE is more like related to pave way for streamlined operations of LCA by developing SOPs, LOPs, MOs etc as per flight regime of Tejas. And if they encounter any problem during that phase then HAL comes in for consultation but here we are seeing that IAF is being handed over some known problems to address which is not domain of IAF but HAL's. Let me again rephrase this with another example though lil different. When an aircraft roles out of factory after over haul then the factory only hands over the aircraft when they dont find any issue in it. At the same time after FCF the Air Force personnel also carry out acceptance of that aircraft and if find any problem then its the factory who is suppose to address those problems.Seems I am not able to convey my point.

 

[waz]

Good development, congrats.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Sir totally agreed with what U highlighted but why the core issues concerning mainly to design like Nose Wheel Vibrations, Noise level in cockpit etc are being addressed by IAF pilots in a Squadron rather than in HAL? IAF's ASTE is more like related to pave way for streamlined operations of LCA by developing SOPs, LOPs, MOs etc as per flight regime of Tejas. And if they encounter any problem during that phase then HAL comes in for consultation but here we are seeing that IAF is being handed over some known problems to address which is not domain of IAF but HAL's. Let me again rephrase this with another example though lil different. When an aircraft roles out of factory after over haul then the factory only hands over the aircraft when they dont find any issue in it. At the same time after FCF the Air Force personnel also carry out acceptance of that aircraft and if find any problem then its the factory who is suppose to address those problems.Seems I am not able to convey my point.

Well it all depends on the nature of the "problems". These so-called 19 "issues" stated in the article all seem to be very minor but none of them were outlined in the ASQRs for the IAF's FOC so HAL can rightly handover the LCAs in FOC condtion to the IAF and say "we have satisifed your criteria". The onus to fix the minor issues that the IAF says exist will be on the IAF theselves as it is their plane and they can modify/customise it as they see fit in consultation with the OEM. Just like the IAF inducted the MKIs but once in service the ASTE has determined that there certain safety issues with the placement of critical switches and the IAF worked with the OEM (and HAL) to address these issues. This has been the case with every aircraft type in Indian service- they have been continually refined in accordance with the IAF's wishes as time has gone on.

Again, ASQRs are not exhaustive- they are a minimum criteria that outline in very broad terms what the outright performance of the plane should be, they do not dictate the minor issues like swtich placement, MFD configuration and such. Unless the noise intrusion or LG vibrations were noted in the ASQRs then HAL has no need to stall delivery to address these issues, they can all be rectified post-delviery in consultation with the user.

When an aircraft roles out of factory after over haul then the factory only hands over the aircraft when they dont find any issue in it.

Well it entirely depends on the nature of the "issue". If it is not critical to flight safety and does not hinder the product's ability to deliver outright demanded performance as outlined by the user then they can't be responsible for "fixing" it as this is an entirely arbitrary methodolgy and by applying this framework no plane would ever enter service as there would always be scope to improve/tweak. It is for the user to outline their minimum benchmark and for the supplier to meet this, then the product is purchased and enters service. If after that date the user wants certain things improved this is possible in accordance with the user's wishes.

 

[Zahoor Raja-Jani]

FOC LCA= 4th gen

MK.1A= 4.5+ gen

Dear Sir you know the characteristic of 4.5th Gen or you want to say MK-2 version will be 5th..? means Tejas Mk-2 is equals to F-35, F-22
One question Tejas MK-1 is equals to Euro Fighter ? Rafael ?

One serious note don't spread lies or ready to become laughing stock. Neither India or Pakistan producing and operating 4.5th Jet.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Dear Sir you know the characteristic of 4.5th Gen or you want to say MK-2 version will be 5th..? means Tejas Mk-2 is equals to F-35, F-22
One question Tejas MK-1 is equals to Euro Fighter ? Rafael ?

The Mk.2 will be 4.5+ gen also. Just because the Mk.1A may be classed as a 4.5 gen fighter doesn't mean it is equal to all others in that group, obviously is isn't equal to the Rafale or EFT in outright performance- nor was it ever meant to be.

One serious note don't spread lies or ready to become laughing stock. Neither India or Pakistan producing and operating 4.5th Jet.

Pakistan isn't sure but what's that got to do with India? The Mk.1A with improved avionics, an AESA radar and an advanced weapon suite is a 4.5 gen fighter by most measures (even though there isn't a steadfast rule for this).

 

[JohnyD]

something is wrong in reporting....how come 2 could form a squadron as far as IAF is concerned..!