Will Pakistan and India survive the next 50 years ?

[PakistaniAtBahrain]

seriously indus civilization is a extinct one

i dont care about indus civilisation. all this obsession with past civilisations and who its true inheritors are is stupid.

 

[peagle]

Seriously?... What about 150 million years as Dinosaurs used to roam in that land.

How much we try, It's still Indian subcontinent, Indian ocean, Himalayas, Hindu-kush mountains, to the world....History can't be distorted based on ones whims and fancies.

I honestly cannot tell if you are being serious, joking, or simply dilutional.

You do realise, that history and heritage are not claimed by the animal kingdom anywhere on this earth. I assume you are human, if you are, then surely you realise, that history and heritage first and foremost belong to the land, and its people, I don't think there is any confusion or disagreement on this basic factual understanding.

What you have given me, is a whole new make-believe world based on some fantasies.

Well, what you know, I get to meet weirdos on PDF on a regular basis, this makes 3 in one day, I think it's a new record.

 

[jamahir]

like i said there is no point debating you. you believe in a utopia. muslims will do things our way, hindus will do it their way, and let the communists do things their way.

So that is your opinion. But sorry you are being a defeatist. Think about it.

 

[Fireurimagination]

Yes, no national borders, no militaries, no governments ( but people ruling themselves )... A very communist dream.

Communists only make they the right noises, but when it comes to perform or implement their ideology they suck real bad not only in India but all over the world.

 

[PakistaniAtBahrain]

So that is your opinion. But sorry you are being a defeatist. Think about it.

i am not being a defeatist. i believe in islam, its evidences and signs are all true. it tackles human nature as well and how to conquer it. communism is another attempt to tackle it and doomed to fail within decades even if the whole world adopted it. its looks at humans as robots, when we arent robots. its a shit ideology and only dreamers that have no direction in life and have a defeatist outlook on their society gravitate towards communism. some do it because they think its cool and are a bunch of wannabes and groupies.

 

[jamahir]

Communists only make they the right noises, but when it comes to perform or implement their ideology they suck real bad not only in India but all over the world.

In India at least Communism is seeing a revival among the youth, especially since the JNU events in 2016. Lal Salaams are sounding in many places.

About implementation, the activists have to look at experiments everywhere, including Venezuela and pre-2011 Libya where the "people ruling themselves" aim was achieved through Direct Democracy. The activists should look at novel economic systems and production systems ( Vertical Farming, Collective Farming, 3D Printing etc ).

The Indian communists should also desi-fy their efforts by promoting desi communists like Shaheed Bhagat Singh.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

seriously indus civilization is a extinct one

All civilizations from 5000 years ago are extinct so I see no need for you qualify this. And I don't think anybody said differant?

Pakistan India survive

What matters more than survival of these labels is the prosperity, security and chance of living decent lives of the people of these lands. If you look at the previous 1000 years political history and then referance them to your native and you will see how many times they have changed.

So if in another 50 years time Pakistan and India have cracked up into dozen political units - sort of devolved into their regional provinces or states. For instance f there is in India -

• Republic of Gujrat
• Republic of Tamildesh
• Republic of Kerala
• Republic Khalistan
• Republic of Kannada
• Republic of Rajputana
• Republic of West Bengal

Or in Pakistan there is -

• 
  
• Islamic Republic of Sindh
• Islamic Republic of Afghania [Khyber Pakhtunkwa]
• Islamic Republic of Punjab

If the citizens of those states are provide right to liberty, health, wealth and opportunity would it matter if the present labels don't exist. After all non of these are holy. These are legal entities that exist for the citizen. If for whatever reason they fail then they can be evolved like we have seen in the last 1000 years.

You see that in Europe where nation states first came into existence. They are often dissolved like Yugoslavia, or devolved into their component parts like Czechoslovakia which became as recent as 1993 into Czechia and Slovakia without much fanfare.

Then we see the opposite trend where states join larger blocks like European Union or even leave like UK recently did. The most important determinant is that whatever label you live under delivers, yes delivers to the citizen.

And what is that delivery? That the state provides law/order, health, economic security and opportunity to love a contented, happy life.

@Baibars_1260


Ps. One good example as to what I alluding to can be seen over the last 50 years. In 1970 Pakistan included East Bengal. Today that is Bangladesh. Both peoples are living a life entirely on the trajectories they have made for themselves. When I went to Pakistan and stsyed in my ancestral district or toured about I never once saw anybody effected by the fact that Bangladesh now was another country. It made nought differance. What mattered was the jobs, the schools, the roads, the housing, the law/order that existed around me.

 

[Baibars_1260]

So lets start to next phase which being closer in the timeline of tye age of most PDF members here needs less explanation but first lets bust some myths:

1. Myth # 1

The basic issue between Pakistan and India is territory, specifically the territory of Kashmir.
Kashmir is only a symptom, and not the cause of the animosity between India and Pakistan. Even if in a fantasy world the Kashmir issue is ever resolved the enmity between Pakistan and India will remain, and in fact will increase.

Pakistan's case for Kashmir is simplistic and legalistic. Kashmir is a contiguous Muslim majority region which on the basis of Partition on religious grounds belongs to Pakistan. Overall the people's decision counts so per UN resolution a plebiscite should be held to determine the status of the territory.

India makes a much larger "moral " case beyond its own "legalistic stand ", that the state's tin pot ruler had acceded to India.

There are two stands by different political groups:

(a) The Congress Stand
The Congress stand is that regardless of who acceded claiming to be "king of Kashmir", India only recognizes a democratically elected government representing the Kashmiri people which has been there under "free and fair " elections ever since India took control of the territory. The "king" was sent packing. . A foreign sponsored plebiscite is out of the question,
On a moral stand, India rejects partition on religious grounds and ( unstated) a Muslim majority state living peacefully in Hindu majority India is proof of India's secular character. Pakistan must hand over the rest of Kashmir to unite the peoples so that they can live in peace.

(b). RSS stand .
Kashmir is part of Hindu majority mother India (Bharat Mata ) which Hindu armed forces have wrested successfully from Muslim control. The other half of Kashmir will also be shortly captured by military action, unless Pakistan surrenders like it did in 1971 in East Pakistan . Meanwhile Indian held Kashmir should have its Muslim majority status diluted by demographic change.The Kashmiris have no right to democratically elected state legislature such as is accorded to other states in the Indian Union. Kashmir must be governed by the army under the Armed Forces Special Powers Act. giving the armed forces the right to search, arrest or kill any Kashmiri deemed a "terrorist" with impunity. Pakistan must be attacked or threatened to vacate Azad Kashmir without resistance. India is a Hindu majority state and no Muslim region or state will be tolerated.

So, that sums up the stands of the government and opposition.

Myth # 2.

Indian Muslims are factor in Indian Pakistani relations. How India treats its Indian Muslim population will affect relations.

In fact Indian Muslims have nothing to do with Indo-Pak animosity.
Indira Gandhi was well liked by Indian Muslims, and she maintained a strictly secular stance, , but was bitterly against Pakistan. The same has been the case with Nehru, Shastri, Chandrashekhar, Morarji Desai, I.K. Gujral, and Dev Gowda.
General stand: Pakistan is an illegitimate artificial state which must be dismantled because it is best for Indian Muslims.

The stand of the saffron brigade is well known. For them Pakistanis and Indian Muslims, Kashmiris are the same and worthy of slaughter and pogroms. Till full preparations can be made for Pakistan's destruction the slaughter has to be confined to India only.

So now that we recognize the Myths above what are the real causes of the enmity between Pakistan and India ?

We have seen in the two posts above that Pakistan's very existence is an embarrassment to any centrist, secular progressive government in India, even left wing governments.
While centrist left wing, left of center, and left suported governments such as those headed by Rajiv Gandhi, V.P.Singh, Dev Gowda, I.K. Gujral, Manmohan Singh traditionally tried to de-escalate the confrontation with Pakistan ( preferring the "ice cube in warm water" approach ) there was a "deep state" in India comprising nominally secular bureaucrats, army officers and diplomats who were of the view that given India's overwhelming conventional military advantage there was no reason to lessen any military or diplomatic pressure on Pakistan. According to the then (1985-1987) perceptions of this deep state were that even a tactical military defeat on Pakistan such as the loss of a major city to a sudden Indian military offensive, would humiliate Pakistan's armed forces to the extent that the general population of Pakistan would deride them and rise up in a left wing revolt with elements of the Pakistan Army itself revolting. This was analogous to the Tsarist Army revolting in Russia after reverses on the front against Germany in World War 1.

Cold War hawks such as Natwar Singh were concerned that the Soviet Union was loosing the war in Afghanistan, and a jubilant Pakistan would once again focus its attention on Kashmir. The USA would reward Pakistan with support just as it had supported Pakistan in the 1950s to the mid 60s. Also, though unconfirmed there were suspicions that Pakistan would in time develop nuclear weapons which would render any military operations against it untenable.

In 1987 Operation Brasstacks, the final blow to finish Pakistan off was planned. Rajiv Gandhi was in power then but even he had very little knowledge that such an operation was underway.
Operation Brasstacks was ironically planned by General Krishnaswamy Sundarji, the most left wing secular COAS India has had since Sam Bahadur. Unlike Sam Bahadur who had modeled himself on his British colonial peers ( baton swinging, mustache twirling gin and tonic Koi hai) with limited education, Sundarji was a highly educated thorough professional, using all the techniques of modern Warsaw Pact and NATO war strategies on highly mobile air-land concepts, based on PERT-CPM war gaming scenarios.
We can discuss the military aspects of the operations and why Brasstacks failed separately but it is sufficient to say here that this was India's secular deep state's last military "fling" to destroy Pakistan militarily. Even defense minister George Fernandez himself a non-practicing Christian married to a Muslim, and a hard core leftist never considered a large scale military offensive to take Pakistan, which became nuclear under his tenure.

Over the decades India's character changed, and the secular deep state in India withered away . The Congress Party and its left wing allies were smashed into oblivion, by a rising tide of religious fundamentalism and Hindutva, and a completely new power structure. There is no deep state but a brazenly extra constitutional center of authority the RSS that basically governs India's domestic and foreign policy , particularly the policy against Pakistan. With a controlled mass media both the government and its handlers enjoy overwhelming support from India's masses who have been convinced of a historical moment to wreak their vengeance on Muslims, Pakistan, and "Islam " for the centuries of wrongs done to them. The Indian Armed Forces as the new guardians of Hindutva pride and honor will avenge with all the force at their disposal.
What is more the Indian armed forces top brass have long since been transformed from the earlier apolitical old guard trained by the British, to the completely ideologically committed Nazi style military hierarchy that takes it orders not from the Ministry of Defence but from the RSS directly. There is even talk of arming the RSS and inducting it into the Indian Armed Forces as separate fighting units.
Unlike the earlier reticence of Indian military officers in expressing their sympathies for Hindutva and reluctance to openly call for the destruction of Pakistan, the new breed of Indian Military brass (as symbolized by Major Gaurav Arya and General Bakshi ) has no such reservations. General V.P.Mallik who led India's Armed Forces in the Kargil conflict in 1999 was the last of the old guard.
We will discuss the role of the RSS and its influence amongst the Indian Military brass separately .

At this time the threat faced by Pakistan is real. The conflict has been transformed from India's quest for a modern secular inclusive nation hood to India's determination to form a religious fundamentalist nuclear armed Hindutva state that will wreak vengeance on the population of Muslims within, and Muslims outside of India's current boundaries. We will discuss how the level of professionalism in India's foreign and military policy advisers has deteriorated, and how this directly threatens Pakistan and its existence. The era of realists ( equally motivated) like D.P.Dhar, P.N.Haksar, Natwar Singh has been replaced by the era of Ajit Doval guided by the RSS.
Pakistan is facing a religiously motivated nuclear armed military apparatus that is bent on revenge. Unfortunately their professional capabilities are insufficient to estimate the consequences of the actions that are in the works.
(To be continued.)

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

So now that we recognize the Myths above what are the real causes of the enmity between Pakistan and India ?

We have seen in the two posts above that Pakistan's very existence is an embarrassment to any centrist, secular progressive government in India, even left wing governments.
While centrist left wing, left of center, and left suported governments such as those headed by Rajiv Gandhi, V.P.Singh, Dev Gowda, I.K. Gujral, Manmohan Singh traditionally tried to de-escalate the confrontation with Pakistan ( preferring the "ice cube in warm water" approach ) there was a "deep state" in India comprising nominally secular bureaucrats, army officers and diplomats who were of the view that given India's overwhelming conventional military advantage there was no reason to lessen any military or diplomatic pressure on Pakistan. According to the then (1985-1987) perceptions of this deep state were that even a tactical military defeat on Pakistan such as the loss of a major city to a sudden Indian military offensive, would humiliate Pakistan's armed forces to the extent that the general population of Pakistan would deride them and rise up in a left wing revolt with elements of the Pakistan Army itself revolting. This was analogous the Tsarist Army revolting in Russia after reverses on the front against Germany in World War 1.

Cold War hawks such as Natwar Singh were concerned that the Soviet Union was loosing the war in Afghanistan, and a jubilant Pakistan would once again focus its attention on Kashmir. The USA would reward Pakistan with support just as it had supported Pakistan in the 1950s to the mid 60s. Also, though unconfirmed there were suspicions that Pakistan would in time develop nuclear weapons which would render any military operations against it untenable.

In 1987 Operation Brasstacks, the final blow to finish Pakistan off was planned. Rajiv Gandhi was in power then but even he had very little knowledge that such an operation was underway.
Operation Brasstacks was ironically planned by General Krishnaswamy Sundarji, the most left wing secular COAS India has had since Sam Bahadur. Unlike Sam Bahadur who had modeled himself on his British colonial peers ( baton swinging, mustache twirling gin and tonic Koi hai) with limited education, Sundarji was a highly educated thorough professional, using all the techniques of modern Warsaw Pact and NATO war strategies on highly mobile air-land concepts, based on PERT-CPM war gaming scenarios.
We can discuss the military aspects of the operations and why Brasstacks failed separately but it is sufficient to say here that this was India's secular deep state's last military "fling" to destroy Pakistan militarily. Even defense minister George Fernandez himself a non-practicing Christian married to a Muslim, and a hard core leftist never considered a large scale military offensive to take Pakistan, which became nuclear under his tenure.

Over the decades India's character changed, and the secular deep state in India withered away . The Congress Party and its left wing allies were smashed into oblivion, by a rising tide of religious fundamentalism and Hindutva, and a completely new power structure. There is no deep state but a brazenly extra constitutional center of authority the RSS that basically governs India's domestic and foreign policy , particularly the policy against Pakistan. With a controlled mass media both the government and its handlers enjoy overwhelming support from India's masses who have been convinced of a historical moment to wreak their vengeance on Muslims, Pakistan, and "Islam " for the centuries of wrongs done to them. The Indian Armed Forces as the new guardians of Hindutva pride and honor will avenge with all the force at their disposal.
What is more the Indian armed forces top brass have long since been transformed from the earlier apolitical old guard trained by the British, to the completely ideologically committed Nazi style military hierarchy that takes it orders not from the Ministry of Defence but from the RSS directly. There is even talk of arming the RSS and inducting it into the Indian Armed Forces as separate fighting units.
Unlike the earlier reticence of Indian military officers in expressing their sympathies for Hindutva and reluctance to openly call for the destruction of Pakistan, the new breed of Indian Military brass (as symbolized by Major Gaurav Arya and General Bakshi ) has no such reservations. General V.P.Mallik who led India's Armed Forces in the Kargil conflict in 1999 was the last of the old guard.
We will discuss the role of the RSS and its influence amongst the Indian Military brass separately .

At this time the threat faced by Pakistan is real. The conflict has been transformed from India's quest for a modern secular inclusive nation hood to India's determination to form a religious fundamentalist nuclear armed Hindutva state that will wreak vengeance on the population of Muslims within, and Muslims outside of India's current boundaries. We will discuss how the level of professionalism in India's foreign and military policy advisers has deteriorated, and how this directly threatens Pakistan and its existence. The era of realists ( equally motivated) like D.P.Dhar, P.N.Haksar, Natwar Singh has been replaced by the era of Ajit Doval guided by the RSS.
Pakistan is facing a religiously motivated nuclear armed military apparatus that is bent on revenge. Unfortunately the professional capabilities are insufficient to estimate the consequences of the actions that are in the works.
(To be continued.)

Excellent points.

The important thing is that our enmity with india will NEVER end. It is permanent and forever. Equally, india CANNOT mess with Pakistan because of our nukes and strong military. They will talk alot, blow a lot of hot air and make retarded claims but NOTHING more. india/rss/sanghis have been boxed in like rats in a maze. That is the reality.

 

[ayodhyapati]

We are 8,000 year old civilization. Read "MehrGarh".

who are you ?

 

[ayodhyapati]

There are 200 million plus people

The ancestor of whales is an animal called Pakecitus whose fossils were found in Pakistan

@PakistaniAtBahrain

we call good food in hindi as PAKWAN which is PAK +WAN
so pakistan is as old as PAKWAN.of hindu culture which is 5000 years old

 

[Baibars_1260]

Excellent points.

The important thing is that our enmity with india will NEVER end. It is permanent and forever. Equally, india CANNOT mess with Pakistan because of our nukes and strong military. They will talk alot, blow a lot of hot air and make retarded claims but NOTHING more. india/rss/sanghis have been boxed in like rats in a maze. That is the reality.

Agree with you our enmity with India is permanent now and foreseeable future.
But a little introspection is important also.
1. There have been centrist and left wing supported governments in India that did not play the "deep state " hawks game. I.K. Gujral himself of West Pakistani origin, was of a different mindset than Indira Gandhi, and so was Dev Gowda a South Indian. Narasimha Rao, though a Congressman was far more pragmatic than the Gandhi family. Defence ministers such as George Fernandez, A.K.Anthony, and Mulayam Singh Yadav were far removed from the Hindutva mind set. So were Indian Army COAS S.F. Rodrigues and V.Mallik. If there was ever an opportunity to ward off the threat of mutual destruction that is facing us today it would have been with outreaches to these people.


2. Today we are facing a grim future, The Indian mindset is in the grip of religious fundamentalist insanity fueled by hyper jingoistic media, that is falsely peddling the myth of invincibility of the Indian armed forces.
The normally professional capabilities of India's military commanders has significantly changed .
COAS K.Sundarji had a double Masters in International and Defence Studies. Sam Manekshaw except for a one year stint at the Imperial Defence College London, had no University degrees, but he was of the old secular school. Bipin Rawat CDS has an honorary MPhil from University of Meerut which is hardly in the Ivy League .
The previous Indian generals up to General Mallik were strictly apolitical though Manekshaw made very disparaging statements about Indira Gandhi calling her "Sweetie". ( Wonder what Mrs. Manekshaw thought ! ).
The present group of Indian commanders are far more likely to fall into a self serving prophecy and be carried away both by delusions and the own propaganda. Never in the history of the Indian armed forces have we heard such ridiculous statements such as are coming now. It would have been funny were it not for a very serious and real threat of a pre-emptive nuclear attack. Just as India's prime minister believed that Pakistani radars didn't work in fog and rain on February 19, 2019, ( and no one contradicted him), it is likely that an Indian COAS with limited education will believe that Pakistan will be wiped out in a surprise missile attack and whatever few missiles Pakistan can launch before it is itself hit will be successfully intercepted by India's Ballistic Missile Defense. Social media and controlled media in India are peddling just this lie to the Indian masses that "Hindu" technology based on ancient Vedic science is so advanced that no missile can touch India. Not even the Israelis are so sure of their Arrow BMD to consider making a pre-emptive strike on their enemy.
Living on fantasies like 1 billion Pakistani soldiers captured in Dhaka, 11000 "terrorists " killed in Balakot, 300, Chinese troops killed in Galwan, is feeding a madness into the entire public perceptions, political, military, diplomatic, and masses . A country feeding on extreme religious frenzy and mass hysteria is very dangerous. We don't have to go very far to see the delusions. These are evident right here on PDF.
Next: Why India's desire for revenge and desire to destroy Pakistan ,

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

For referance the British Empire in coterminous Pakistan lasted 98 years and coterminous India lasted about 200 years.

Nope that's wrong ...British Empire in India, became British empire of India only in 1818 according to the Brits themselves with the defeat of the Marathas...so British empire in coterminous India lasted around 129 years

That said batting average of pan-subcontinental empires is around 130-150 years (stable rule while spanning both coasts at its widest gap between Gujarat and Bengal)...so I would say , present political configuration of subcontinent has another 75 years left to it



I once made a thread exactly on this topic.

A worrying Historical Cycle in the Subcontinent

Prologue: Every Empire has a lifecycle. Even civilizations have lifecycles. Spengler,Glubb and others have noted the rough timespans of empires. Toynbee even recorded civilizations which have gone extinct and civilizations which are still intact. Rough estimates of the timespan of empires is...

defence.pk

 

[arjunk]

Why India's desire for revenge and desire to destroy Pakistan

• Ruled by Muslims for centuries, are still butthurt about it
• Insecurity about a variety of Pakistani physical traits, including but not limited to fair skin, tall stature, muscular build, deeper voice, and of course, **** size. India has the smallest **** size in the world, while Pakistan's is the second highest . Depends on which study you use. Either way, Pakistan is bigger in every one of them. I have a map of this data too, but mods removed it last time I posted it so I won't.
• Another obvious indication of the above insecurities is the fact that they have "Love Jihad" laws to stop Muslims from seducing Hindu girls. They even enforce these laws on teenagers for walking together.
• Obsession with "Akhand Bharat," Since British named their entire colony India, they are under the impression those borders existed before the dinosaurs died, and they have legitimate claim. I've even seen them claim Tibet, Afghanistan, Indonesia, Burma, Sri Lanka, and Thailand to name a few countries.

 

[ayodhyapati]

• Ruled by Muslims for centuries, are still butthurt about it
• Insecurity about a variety of Pakistani physical traits, including but not limited to fair skin, tall stature, muscular build, deeper voice, and of course, **** size. India has the smallest **** size in the world, while Pakistan's is the second highest . Depends on which study you use. Either way, Pakistan is bigger in every one of them. I have a map of this data too, but mods removed it last time I posted it so I won't.
• Another obvious indication of the above insecurities is the fact that they have "Love Jihad" laws to stop Muslims from seducing Hindu girls. They even enforce these laws on teenagers for walking together.
• Obsession with "Akhand Bharat," Since British named their entire colony India, they are under the impression those borders existed before the dinosaurs died, and they have legitimate claim. I've even seen them claim Tibet, Afghanistan, Indonesia, Burma, Sri Lanka, and Thailand to name a few countries.

india is safe for next 5000 , care for pakistan and bangladesh .