Why the creation of Pakistan does not negate my Indian identity

[padamchen]

I think most of us will agree with that. All humans have local, sub-regional, regional, national, transnational and international inheritance. When I meet a Eskimo I recognize the essential human connect I have with him. The degree of "connect" or amount of shared inheritance varies by the differant levels of categories you might choose. For a example a Syleti Bangla has far more connection with another Syleti Bangla then with a Bangla from Kolkata. Of course both Banglas share more with each other than with a Sikh from Amritsar. The Sikh, Bangla from Kolkata, Bangla from Sylet all share more with which other then a German. So this is a relative and moving scale. No suprises here. In UK a Afghan, a Pakistani, a Indian etc are all "Asians".

So non of what the OP says it surprising but what I don't like is the way he is using what is obvious to get his a*ss polished by Indians. Dawn loves doing this and I think it is simply kowtowing to Indian readers who boost it's website its. If he genuinely wanted to explore this subject he could have celebrated South Asia as a region. He could have said "I am a South Asian Pakistan" and I don't think anybody would have a issue with that. It is his deliberate and calculated use of the term "India" which in 2017 does not carry the same neutal meaning as in 1937 that I find repugnent. He is like I said tried to polish his a*ss with Hindu dikk. And that is exactly what he got.

And I bet Dawns editorial must have got 100 milllion hits from across the border on their website. This guy is just doing a 'Tarik Fateh'. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Agree.

We prefer the less anglicised desi.

Warmer. Cosily cruder.

Cheers, Doc

Whatever indians are or are not, one thing is for certain, they have no similarities with Pakistanis.

Is that you saying you've lost the debate?

Cheers, Doc

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Agree.

We prefer the less anglicised desi.

Warmer. Cosily cruder.

Cheers, Doc



Is that you saying you've lost the debate?

Cheers, Doc

More like pointing out the obvious.

The Punjabis and Sindhis of Pakistan are different to their counterparts in india due to miscegenation with other Pakistanis of different ethnicities which are alien to india. Punjabi and Sindhi are more linguistic terms nowadays than anything else.

 

[padamchen]

Being "Hindu" is a vey loose term. As much as being a Christian is a loose term. A Filipino is Christian. So is a Jamaican. So is a French etc. Therefore if your implying that some of our ancestors followd something that had shared features with what you call Hindu you would be right but if you think that made them like Kolkata or Chennai residents you are badly mistaken.

And as regards conversion everybody was something before they were the 'thing' and you should know that. Nothing ever has been same since eternity. Persians themselves were Zoroastrian before converting to Islam and before that somethig else. Therefore stating the obvious is doing nothing here.

Indeed most Indians were aboriginal animists before following Hindusim which came from our part of the world as a Vedic culture and moved into the Ganges basin and which over the succeeding millenia has evolved into what you today call Hinduism.

Santana Dharm if you find Hindu too new, colonial or vague.

Does not take away anything from my contention.

There is very little to nothing known of the pre Zoroastrian (Mithraic) or pre Hindu past of the Iranic and Indic people.

Cheers, Doc

 

[jericho]

You are either the sons or daughters of Hindu, Buddhist, or Zoroastrian converts.

and your mom is either a cow or a buffalo

 

[padamchen]

and your mom is either a cow or a buffalo

 

[Hamza913]

You are either the sons or daughters of Hindu, Buddhist, or Zoroastrian converts.

Fact.

The guys who did the converting were Turk and Persian. In the main. The Arabs raided and went.

Fact.

If that is your "identity", so be it.

Cheers, Doc

Arabs set up administration and let Hindus and Buddhists be a part of it. They didn't loot the place and leave. They only left because they were unable to deal with the internal unrest as well as other tribes advancing on them, and because the Ummayids started going through political turmoil.

Oh and a fair few Pakistanis are descended from Arabs, Persians or Turks. If you extend Persian to Iranian, it becomes a significant minority.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Baloch and Pashtun are not Indic.

What is this new term "Indic"? Is it something like my invention "Gangoo"? Please use the correct term "Indo-Aryan". If that is what you meant yes you are correct.

And what about 100s of millions of those things hiding in the deep south of India? What are they? Dravid-ian? That lot do not fit into the Indo-Aryan category do they? So India similarly has big huge cracks running along t like below.

I find it funny how Indians intrude into Pakistan and see divisions us but entirely choose to ignore the masive cracks running in their country. I mean Indo-Aryans are not by an means Dravidians and Dravidians are not Tibetans. Does this mean India should be broken along the lines [below] to retain this purity that detractors here keep pointing to inside Pakistan?

How does a three cracked portion India along Indo-Aryan, Dravids and Tibetan sound? Then all the Indics in Pakistan can join in and have a right lovefest with their brothers?

 

[padamchen]

What is this new term "Indic"? Is it something like my invention "Gangoo"? Please use the correct term "Indo-Aryan". If that is what you meant yes you are correct.

And what about 100s of millions of those things hiding in the deep south of India? What are they? Dravid-ian? That lot do not fit into the Indo-Aryan category do they? So India similarly has big huge cracks running along t like below.

I find it funny how Indians intrude into Pakistan and see divisions us but entirely choose to ignore the masive cracks running in their country. I mean Indo-Aryans are not by an means Dravidians and Dravidians are not Tibetans. Does this mean India should be broken along the lines [below] to retain this purity that detractors here keep pointing to inside Pakistan?

How does a three cracked portion India along Indo-Aryan, Dravids and Tibetan sound? Then all the Indics in Pakistan can join in and have a right lovefest with their brothers?

Eating Chinese. Food I hasten to add ...

So can't type a lot.

Agree.

But I never said anything about your crack Vs ours.

You must have me mixed up with an OOI retard.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Eating Chinese.

Mm sounds good. Actually to please those who sing on about Indic, Iranic, Dravidic, Sinoic, Aboic divides I came up with a solution. How about we divide South Asia clean along these [below] language contours. We still are going to have pockets of 'minorities' with dis-similar languages but nothing can be perfect. I suggest all the Aboriginals in India [numbering some 80 million] being corralled into the Sundarban region of India/Bangladesh to create a separate country for them. Maybe the Sinoics would like to join China?

Anyway here is my attempt at drawing new map of South Asia that should please those who sing the "Indic" songs. Views of members in particular Indians sought. Pakistan gets sliced but India gets thrice sliced.

@Jlaw @Beast @Chinese Bamboo @Chinese-Dragon

 

[padamchen]

Mm sounds good. Actually to please those who sing on about Indic, Iranic, Dravidic, Sinoic, Aboic divides I came up with a solution. How about we divide South Asia clean along these [below] language contours. We still are going to have pockets of 'minorities' with dis-similar languages but nothing can be perfect. I suggest all the Aboriginals in India [numbering some 80 million] being corralled into the Sundarban region of India/Bangladesh to create a separate country for them. Maybe the Sinoics would like to join China?

Anyway here is my atempt at drawing new map of South Asia that should please those who sing the "Indic" songs. Views of members in particular Indians sought. Pakistan gets sliced but India gets thrice sliced.

Still doesn't solve Pakistan's identity narrative in the real world.

Cheers, Doc

 

[django]

Why the creation of Pakistan does not negate my Indian identity

There is something about India as an idea which transcends modern-day political configurations. It is the idea of India as a huge mass of land which stretches from Balochistan to present day Bangladesh. This idea of India is independent of any political configuration.

In fact, during the past thousands of years, this mass of land has very seldom been a unified political entity. And yet, there is something which loosely unites the inhabitants despite their substantial religious and at times even ethno-linguistic differences. After all, let us not forget that more than 200 languages are spoken in India.

There is something, perhaps difficult to articulate, which enables this huge stretch of land to be called India irrespective of various political shapes it has assumed over thousands of years.

My country Pakistan was created only 70 years ago. In my eyes, the current political landscape consisting of India, Bangladesh and Pakistan is just one of the many political permutations the Indian subcontinent has witnessed over thousands of years. This current political formation does not mean that I have ceased to be an Indian.

Yes, at this point, I will say that I am a proud Pakistani. I opened my eyes here and I love it intensely despite the fact that I have often been severely critical of the way things are being run here. But at the same time, I would also like to say that I have an Indian identity as well.

I am the heir to the same rich past and I have the same claim to India as those who belong to modern political India. It is this great common heritage, underpinned by the idea of India independent of political configurations, which unites me with those who live in the present political entity of India. It is our common heritage irrespective of our different political, and for that matter even cultural differences – because modern political India also has many sub-cultures which differ substantially from each other – which unites us.

Yes, those who worship the idea of the Two-Nation Theory will negate it and ironically their sentiments will find endorsement by a Hindutva brigade. The former thinks that identity is perhaps a monolithic phenomenon and Pakistan equates to an antithesis of India. They think that identity is solely a political cum religious construct and since Pakistan is a separate political entity, we are now just Pakistanis in every respect of the way.

The political Pakistan means the fostering of a completely new identity and a complete divorce from the past. For them, their past starts from the point their ancestors converted to Islam and their identity morphs into something concrete only after the creation of Pakistan. And this group, consisting of so-called nationalists, is also wary of ethnic identities and aligns itself with the state cultivated narrative of “one Pakistan, one nation”.

On the other hand, the Indian right-wingers think that since Pakistan became a separate state, their country was “partitioned” and an unforgivable sin has been committed. By creating Pakistan, its inhabitants have divided mother India. They keep on talking about the glory of the Indus valley civilisation and mention India as a historically single political entity which in 1947 was divided along religious lines.

Well, needless to say, I disagree with both parties. My premise is that people have multiple identities. I am a Pakistani, a Punjabi, a Muslim, and of course an Indian in the sense I have mentioned above. In fact, we all have multiple identities. At times, one identity may become dominant due to certain circumstances and may even take on a strong political expression, such as a demand for a separate state. However, even if one does so, the other identities do not simply disappear.

So in my case, my Indian identity is there despite my Pakistani identity. I may not consciously ‘choose’ it, but for me it is not only a matter of choice, as it is an identity shaped by history and culture transmitted through generations. It is that common historical heritage which binds me together with those who live in the neighbouring political India.

I have been fortunate to know numerous Indians at both of my alma maters, Cornell University and Syracuse University. Some of my best friends are Indians and I am amazed at how much we have in common despite an apparently ‘hostile’ political situation between the two countries. And they do not belong to North India only (as it is often said that North India is culturally closer to Pakistan) but from the South as well. It is this commonality which transcends political and even ethnic and religious differences which binds me to them. I do not think of them as foes but as my brothers and sisters with whom I share a great common heritage.

And yet I will not apologise for Pakistan, as it is my country and I opened my eyes here. I will nevertheless reiterate that the creation of Pakistan, at least in my eyes, does not negate my Indian identity and origins. I would like to remind all those who are bent upon imposing the Arab Wahabi culture on us that it is alien to us.

Today, as our countries turn 70, I believe that realising our common identity is important, as it will lead to the erosion of bitterness. Yes, modern Pakistan and India are a reality, but then so is our great common heritage. Yes, it is important for us to be loyal to our political states, but at the same time not overlook the joint heritage.

There is an overarching identity which unites us despite our political differences. I sincerely wish we acknowledge that and move forward as independent but friendly political states.

I am a Pakistani Indian…


Raza Habib Raja
The author is a recent Cornell graduate and currently pursuing his PhD in political science at Maxwell School, Syracuse University. He has also worked for a leading development finance institution in Pakistan. He is a freelance journalist whose works have been published at Huffington Post, Dawn (Pakistan), Express Tribune (Pakistan) and Pak Tea House. He tweets @razaraja (twitter.com/razaraja?lang=en)

Who is the author, Tarak Fateh

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Still doesn't solve Pakistan's identity narrative in the real world.

It does. There would be no Pakistan or India left as in what we have today. Instead five new states would take root that could go on to integrate with their neighbours. Like the Sinoics of Ladakh and Arunchal Pradesh might want to join China. Perhaps the Tamil Dravids in Sri Lanka might to join Dravidia etc.

 

[django]

Bharat Mata ... Isko kuch nahi Pataa !

This is a bogus map, Mauryans never proceeded beyond Ghandara region.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Still doesn't solve Pakistan's identity narrative in the real world.

Cheers, Doc

It has always been there. Which is why Pakistan was created. Only the indian propaganda narrative claims otherwise. To the rest of the world Pakistan=Islam/Muslims. The indian opinion and narrative about us is irrelevant and worthless. indians call for the destruction of the Pakistani race and culture. So what do you expect them to think?

This is a bogus map, Mauryans never proceeded beyond Ghandara region.

Actually the map doesn't cover ALL of india. It forgot to include Germany, France, Spain, Italy, America, Brazil, North Pole and Greenland..........

 

[padamchen]

It has always been there. Which is why Pakistan was created. Only the indian propaganda narrative claims otherwise. To the rest of the world Pakistan=Islam/Muslims. The indian opinion and narrative about us is irrelevant and worthless. indians call for the destruction of the Pakistani race and culture. So what do you expect them to think?

To the rest of the world, Pakistan = Indian Muslims who broke away.

Take a poll. That includes all the world. Not just the Islamic one.

And have it on a non political/defense forum.

Cheers, Doc

It does. There would be no Pakistan or India left as in what we have today. Instead five new states would take root that could go on to integrate with their neighbours. Like the Sinoics of Ladakh and Arunchal Pradesh might want to join China. Perhaps the Tamil Dravids in Sri Lanka might to join Dravidia etc.

Which part of "the real world" eluded you?

Cheers, Doc