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Why the Air Force Generals Want to Kill the A-10

UAVs are disposable.

What sort of UAV's are you talking about here?

Harpy-like self destruct or Predator/Reaper? If later, those are 4 mill/36mill $.

In general i like your theory, infantry calling down their own artillery, guiding it by laser on target. Problem i see is how many men per unit would have this ability. And considering only one target can be engaged at any one time by a single soldier, i see it as lacking in firepower, unless maybe a system exists that allows more shells to lock onto one beam.
 
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MLRS/ARtillery have same concept & as I mentioned earlier they used for primitive strike not for CAS.
What is "primitive strike"?

Sorry for that. I actually want say about A10 range. A10 could be in spec-ops, asymmetric war. A10 can take too much punishment from low level air-defense, as you can see its survivalability is unmatched.
A-10 is ideal against enemy armed with AK-47 and DshK.

181976.jpg


Againts Pantsyrs and enemy fighters all of its armor is absolutely useless.
BTW supersonic fighters are preferred because they can evade enemy much easier not because they can deal with enemy fighter.
Lets imagine that I am a pilot on deep striking mission behind enemy lines. Suddenly I notice enemy fighter.

1) If I am on A-10 I am starting to pray, because soon I'm going to meet the Allah.
2) If I am on F-16 I drop bombs and fuel tanks and engage the enemy fighter.

What sort of UAV's are you talking about here?

Harpy-like self destruct or Predator/Reaper? If later, those are 4 mill/36mill $.

In general i like your theory, infantry calling down their own artillery, guiding it by laser on target. Problem i see is how many men per unit would have this ability. And considering only one target can be engaged at any one time by a single soldier, i see it as lacking in firepower, unless maybe a system exists that allows more shells to lock onto one beam.
I am talking about short range UAVs which will be used to designate CAS type targets.

ScanEagle_900.jpg
 
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I am talking about short range UAVs which will be used to designate CAS type targets.

ScanEagle_900.jpg

Scan eagle is 3.2 mill.$ Not exactly expendable. I thought you meant something along the lines of Switchblade. Or Elbit Skylark equivalent.

ad183729ed46aa7a498f97743cb4a6f1.jpg


Though i do not know if a laser designator can fit in there. It currently has optics that relay video to a soldier.
Scenario would be, a squad of soldiers run into enemy armor, a few of them fire a couple of UAV's to loiter and designate targets. In the meantime, the squad calls for PGM artillery backup which kill the armor. In theory ofcourse.

here is an interesting concept, U.S. Army Demonstrates UAV-Launched Precision Mortar, a UAV that dropped (i guess), 3 guided mortar rounds, though it does not say what was used to designate targets. From 2 kilometers up, well inside effective range of AAA. Though detecting something as small as this would be a challenge indeed.
 
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Factsheets : Scan Eagle

Is price of system which has 4 drones, a ground control station, remote video terminal, and a launch and recovery system.
Thanks, lets see.

System Cost: approximately $3.2 million (2006 dollars)

The Scan Eagle UAS is a portable system, which features four air vehicles or AVs, a ground control station, remote video terminal, and a launch and recovery system known as the Skyhook system.

So I guess each UAV cost about 300 K.
 
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Reading the article and the posts, I feel instead of ditching the A-10 it maybe far more sensible to improve the weapon package.

an aircraft in CAS capacity is just a high altitude platform that provides a further than line of sight operational range.

A-10's design provides for stable low speed, high lift, and durability.

Slap some speedy sharp missiles on it, and you have it.

Q1. How many more hell fires can an A-10 carry compared to best drone ?

Q2. Does the larger A-10 provide added target accuracy via it's larger radar / sensor package ?
 
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Q1. How many more hell fires can an A-10 carry compared to best drone ?
Zero, I think. A-10 was designed for the much larger maverick. A hellfire would be redundant since anything a hellfire can destroy the A-10's gun can wipe out.

Q2. Does the larger A-10 provide added target accuracy via it's larger radar / sensor package ?
Don't know and except in bad weather it probably doesn't matter.

The capabilities of the A-10 are awesome, even today. Soviet missiles could not hit the A-10 due to its shielded engine nor could Soviet radar-guided anti-aircraft guns easily damage it. Yes, the Sovs had a few low-level interceptors but did not, as far as I know, have look-down radars to guide them to low-flying A-10s; besides, they would have been prey to U.S. fighter escorts. So in practice the A-10 could not have been stopped.

Now consider two A-10s attacking a close-column deployed Soviet motor-infantry regiment (as happened in the 1968 invasion of Czechezslovakia, approximately 400 vehicles total). They would have destroyed all but the most modern Soviet main battle tanks and all of the APCs and IFVs on their first pass; furthermore, due to Soviet design infantry in carriers not killed by shrapnel would have had no opportunity to escape the flames of their gasoline-fueled vehicles since the aluminum armor itself would ignite and burn. (The Soviet officers' nickname for these vehicles was "coffin on wheels.") On the second pass the mavericks would destroy a few of the remaining tanks, probably those of the guarding tank company surrounding the wreck of their commander's APC. With guns empty and missiles expended, they would then return to base to be patched up, rearmed, and refueled for more sorties.

Remaining Soviet tanks would have operated without infantry support or central command, thus becoming perfect targets for that favored weapon of the Europeans, infantry-fired anti-tank weapons. The huge and daring armored thrust would have turned into a disastrous failure. If the French and Poles could have defended their country this way they would never have fallen to Hitler's blitzkrieg attacks.

Once the A-10 was deployed the Soviets knew they couldn't conquer Western Europe in a conventional attack. Once the Pershing II missile was deployed in the mid-80s a nuclear offensive wouldn't work, either. And the American "Star Wars" initiative simply blew their minds as their was no prospect of the USSR ever catching up.

As you can see, the A-10s prompt, accurate, and decisive destructive power can't yet be duplicated by UAVs, nor can fighters with gun pods or missiles match it as without armor and low-signature engines they cannot engage in the CAS role without neutralizing the anti-aircraft weaponry carried by ground units.
 
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Thanks, lets see.



So I guess each UAV cost about 300 K.

Control station is just a glorified gaming setup with software and lauch and recovery system is a small crane. I haven't seen how the remote video terminal looks, but can only be as simple as tablet PC.

GCS and FGCS

SkyHook Recovery

Could it be worth 2 million if 4 drones are 1.2 mill.$? Genuinly interested because i have no idea. If anything, i would imagine they are selling the software for a ridiculous price.

but did not, as far as I know, have look-down radars to guide them to low-flying A-10s; besides, they would have been prey to U.S. fighter escorts. So in practice the A-10 could not have been stopped.

From 1978.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1350&dat=19781226&id=FEAxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=hwIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7086,843254

Pretty sure MiG-29/31 and Su-27 had it.

Also, an Iraqi Mi-24 shot down an Iranian F-4 with it's nose mounted MG. One could speculate it would be even easier with a slow flying A-10.
 
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Pretty sure MiG-29/31 and Su-27 had it.
I can imagine the Su-27 could have shot down an A-10. I have a much lower opinion of the MiG-29 - these seem more dangerous to pilots and spectators than potential enemies.

Also, an Iraqi Mi-24 shot down an Iranian F-4 with it's nose mounted MG. One could speculate it would be even easier with a slow flying A-10.
A heli shot down a fighter with its machine gun? Interesting. Yet unlike the F-4 the A-10 is armored and while slow, it can still fly faster than the helicopter, even while attacking.
 
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Another point worth consideration may be the changing nature of warfare.
@Solomon2 are we going to see any more infantry columns ?

400 vehicle shot was a good figure, but those good old times of conventional warfare are going away.

Enemy is more likely to split up the 400, into a smarter more agile groups of 5, thus making the hellfire more expensive than that target.

I still believe A-10 is a great platform, it's unique and trusted.

However I also believe it will take some out of the box thinking to make this platform as useful as it is capable of being.
 
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Attack of the Hog Killers Why the Generals Hate the A-10
Why the Air Force Generals Want to Kill the A-10
by JEFFREY ST. CLAIR
It’s ugly. It’s lumbering and it’s old. But the A-10 Warthog almost certainly remains the best performing airplane in the Air Force’s fleet. The 30-year-old attack plane is safe, efficient, durable and cheap. GI’s call it the friend of the grunt, because it flies low, showers lethal covering fire and greatly reduces the risk of friendly fire deaths and civilian casualties.

While the high-tech fighters and attack helicopters faltered in desert winds, smoke-clotted skies and in icy temperatures, the A-10 proved a workhorse in Gulf War I, Kosovo, Afghanistan and the latest war on Iraq.

Naturally, the Air Force brass now wants to junk it.

On May 27, 2003 the New York Times ran an op-ed by Robert Coram describing the Air Force’s plot to retire the A-10. Coram, author of the highly regarded Boyd: the Fighter Pilot Who Changed the Art of War, revealed that in early April, Maj. General David Deptula of the Air Combat Command, ordered a subordinate to write a memo justifying the decommissioning of the A-10 fleet. Remember, this move came at one of the most perilous moments in the Iraq war, when the A-10 was proving its worthiness once again.

Why does the Air Force want to get rid of its most efficient plane? Coram says that the Air Force never liked the A-10 because it cut against the grain of the post-WW II Air Force mentality, which is fixated on high-altitude strategic bombing and the deployment of smart weapons fired at vast distances from the target. Indeed, the A-10 was rushed into development only because the Air Force feared that the Army’s new Cheyenne attack helicopter might cut the Air Force out of the ground support role, and hence much of the action (and money).

The A-10, built in the 1970s by Fairchild Industries, skims the ground at lower than 1,000 in altitude, can nearly hover over the battlefield, and spews out almost 4,000 rounds of armor-penetrating bullets per minute. (These are also the weapons coated with depleted uranium that have irradiated so much of Iraq and Afghanistan.) Pilots love the plane because it is easy to fly and safe: the cockpit is sealed in a titanium shell to protect the pilot from groundfire, it has a bulky but sturdy frame, three sets of back up controls and a foam-filled fuel tank.

Of course, the most damning factor against the A-10 in the eyes of the generals is the fact that it is old, ugly and cheap-especially cheap. The Air Force generals are infatuated with big ticket items, new technology and sleek new machines. The fastest way to a promotion inside the Air Force is to hitch your name to a rising new weapons system, the more expensive the better. When it comes time to retire, the generals who’ve spent their careers pumping new weapons systems are assured of landing lucrative new careers with defense contractors.

800px-A-10_Thunderbolt_II_Gun_Run.JPEG




So each time the A-10 proves itself in battle, the cries for its extinction by Air Force generals become more intense and hysterical. Since the first Gulf War, where the A-10 outperformed every other aircraft even though the Stealth fighter got all the hype, the Air Force has been quietly mothballing the A-10 fleet. During the first Gulf War, the A-10s destroyed more than half of the 1,700 Iraqi tanks knocked out by air strikes. A-10s also took out about 300 armored personnel carriers and artillery sites. At the end of the war there were 18 A-10 squadrons. Now they’ve been winnowed down to only eight.

In place of the A-10, the Air Force brass is pushing the congress to pour billions into the production of the F/A-22 (at $252 million per plane) and the F-35 fighter (at a minimum of $40 million per plane). These are planes designed to fight an enemy that doesn’t exist and probably never will.

The generals are trying desperately to convince skeptics that the F-35 fighter jet can perform the kind of close air support for ground troops that is the calling card of the A-10. As Coram notes, the F-35 will be so expensive and so vulnerable to enemy fire (it can be taken down by an AK-47 machine gun) that Air Force commanders are unlikely to allow it to fly over hostile terrain below 10,000 feet.

But before they can consign the A-10 to the scrap heap, the Generals must first silence the plane’s defenders, many of them inside the Pentagon. The witch hunt has already begun.

A few hours after Coram’s article appeared, Lt. General Bruce L. Wright, Vice Commander of the Air Combat Command, at Langley Air Force Base, in Virginia, fired off a scathing memo ordering his staff to begin a search-and-destroy mission against the whistleblowers who leaked information to Coram.

"Please look your staffs in the eye and offer that if one of our officers is complicit in going in going to Mr. Coram, without coming to you or me first with their concerns," the General wrote. "They ought to look hard at themselves, their individual professionalism, and their personal commitment to telling the complete story."

General Wright then reminded his directors that it was their duty to "constantly look at upgrading our aircraft and weapons systems" and instructed them to promote the "good news" about the "B-2, F/A22, the F35 and even the UCAVs."

The problem for General Wright and his cohorts in the upper echelons of the Air Force is that the new generation of high-tech planes have returned from the last three wars with less than stellar records and lots of bullet holes from lightly armed forces with no functioning air defense system.

Take the Army’s vaunted Apache attack helicopter, which the Army generals are touting as a multi-billion dollar replacement for the A-10. During the Kosovo war, 24 Apaches were sent to the US airbase in Albania. In the first week of the war, two choppers crashed in training missions and the remainder of the helicopters were grounded for the duration of the air war.

In Afghanistan, during Operation Anaconda, seven Apaches were sent to attack Taliban forces in the mountains near Tora Bora. All got hit by machine gun fire, with five of them being so shut up that they were effectively destroyed.

In Iraq, according to an excellent April 23 account in Slate by Fred Kaplan, 33 Apaches led the initial attack on Republican Guard positions in Karbala, where they encountered heavy machine gun fire and a few rocket-propelled grenades. One was shot down; it’s crew taken as prisoners. The other Apaches soon turned tail, with more than 30 of them sustaining serious damage.

But instead of rehabbing the fleet of A-10s, the Pentagon persists in promoting budget-busting new systems that are dangerous to pilots and civilians and ineffective against even the most primitively-armed enemy soldiers.

"For more than 20 years, the Warthog has been a hero to the soldiers whose lives depend on effective air support," says Eric Miller, a defense investigator at the Project on Government Oversight. "The A-10 works and it’s cheap. But for some reason that’s not good enough for the Air Force."

For the courtiers at the Pentagon, the battles of Afghanistan and Iraq are mere sideshows to the real and perpetual war: the endless raid on the federal treasury. It is a war that only the defense contractors and their political pawns will win. Everyone else, from pilots and taxpayers to civilians, will be collateral damage.
Why the Air Force Generals Want to Kill the A-10 » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

I didn't knew about this place but seems to be hell of a plane but I don't think it can match with modern requirements modern planes are far more faster have some stealth technologies not if complete can carry more missiles and Arms and are more Maneuverable so it should be retired by now
 
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What is "primitive strike"?

Artillery strike before charging on enemy.

A-10 is ideal against enemy armed with AK-47 and DshK.

181976.jpg

Thtats what you think. But it design for for that--
ZSU-23-4-Camp-Pendleton.jpg

&
File:Gepard_1a2_overview.jpg


Againts Pantsyrs and enemy fighters all of its armor is absolutely useless.

:no::no::no:


I am talking about short range UAVs which will be used to designate CAS type targets.

ScanEagle_900.jpg

Good system, but by size I think its payload is too low.
 
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May 28, 2013: The last American A-10 attack aircraft has left Europe. A-10s were designed during the Cold War for combat against Russian ground forces in Europe. That war never happened, but the A-10 proved to be a formidable combat aircraft in post-Cold War conflicts, first in the 1991 liberation of Kuwait and later in Afghanistan and Iraq. During the last decade the most requested ground support aircraft in Afghanistan has been the A-10. There was similar A-10 affection in Iraq. Troops from all nations quickly came to appreciate the unique abilities of this 1970s era aircraft that the U.S. Air Force has several times tried to retire. Two years ago the air force did announce that it was retiring 102 A-10s, leaving 243 in service. At the same time the air force accelerated the upgrading of the remaining A-10s to the A-10C standard.

Also called the PE (for precision engagement) model, the refurbished A-10s are supposed to remain in service until 2028, meaning most A-10Cs will have served over 40 years and as many as 16,000 flight hours. The upgrade effort has been underway for over five years. The upgrades include new electronics as well as structural and engine refurbishment. The A-10C provides the pilot with the same targeting and fire control gadgets the latest fighters have. The new A-10C cockpit has all the spiffy color displays and easy to use controls. Because it is a single-seat aircraft that flies close to the ground (something that requires a lot more concentration), all the automation in the cockpit allows the pilot to do a lot more, with less stress, exertion, and danger.

The basic A-10 is a 1960s design, so the new additions are quite spectacular in comparison. New commo gear has also been added, allowing A-10 pilots to share pix and vids with troops on the ground. The A-10 pilot also has access to the Blue Force Tracker system, so that the nearest friendly ground forces show up on the HUD (Head Up Display) when coming in low to use the 30mm cannon. The A-10 can now use smart bombs, making it a do-it-all aircraft for ground support.

A-10s are worked hard in Afghanistan. For example, an A-10 squadron has a dozen aircraft and 18 pilots. Pilots often average about a hundred hours a month in the air. That's about twenty sorties, as each sortie averages about five hours. The aircraft range all over southern Afghanistan, waiting for troops below to call for some air support. The A-10, nicknamed "Warthog" or just "hog", could always fly low and slow and was designed, and armored, to survive a lot of ground fire. The troops trust the A-10 more than the F-16 or any other aircraft used for ground support.

The A-10 is a 23 ton, twin engine, single seat aircraft whose primary weapon is a multi-barrel 30mm cannon originally designed to fire armored piercing shells at Russian tanks. These days the 1,174 30mm rounds are mostly high explosive. The 30mm cannon fires 363 gram (12.7 ounce) rounds at the rate of about 65 a second. The cannon usually fires in one or two second bursts. In addition, the A-10 can carry seven tons of bombs and missiles. These days the A-10 goes out with smart bombs (GPS and laser guided) and Maverick missiles. It can also carry a targeting pod, enabling the pilot to use high magnification day/night cameras to scour the area for enemy activity. Cruising speed is 560 kilometers an hour and the A-10 can slow down to about 230 kilometers an hour. In Afghanistan two drop tanks are usually carried, to give the aircraft more fuel and maximum time over the battlefield.

If there is another major war in some place like Korea or with Iran, the A-10s will once more be one of the most popular warplane with the ground troops.




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