Why Pakistan needs more provinces

[mrrehan]

Well, Vergennes comparing France with Pakistan is like apples and oranges. The two have entirely differant historical and ethno-social trajectories. Pakistan is a federation and is not a generic state. What many of the members here do not appreciate is Pakistan came after and the generic provinces that make it came before. Pakistan is the child of the provinces.

In 1940s British Indian Empire had lots of administrative units. Each was like a brick that had been acquired by Britain eitheir through military conquest or been brought under indirect British suzerainty. In the latter these states accepted overlorship of Britain but retained internal rule. The best analogy I can give you is imagine a powerful external force landed on the Spanish Costa Del Sol (say Chinese) in 1600s and then after subduing the Spanish and establishing capital in Madrid of their "Chinese European Empire" spread north and east. Over the next 200 years they subjugated France, Germany, Belguim, Itay, Poland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Latvia, Serbia, Greece, Turkey, Azerbaijhan, Syria, Lebanon. This then becomes known as the "Chinese European Empire".

Each one of these countries exists as a province of the empire being ran by Chinese officials from Madrid. Then as independance approaches the Muslim's within the empire insist that when they Chinese leave they don't want to be part of a new European Republic because and insist on having their own state. A vote is held and Turkey, Syria, Azerbaijhain, Lebanon (being Muslim dominant) opt out to go their own way and set up their own federation to be called 'Istania'.

As the Chinese European Empire is dissolved two new states take shape. The Union Of Europe Republic and the Istania Islamic Republic. The problem that surfaces soon is large numbers of Bosnian, Alabanian Muslim's are left inside the European Republic - some of them migrate to Istania and settle in Beirut where they become the dominant group in numbers and displacing the local Arabs in that city. Istania choses Ankara to be the new capital.

Istania would have four provinces - Turkey, Azerbaijan, Syria and Lebanon. As each of them had elected to join the fedration it would be very hard for the federation to de-establish what had set it up - the provinces. In addition there would be problems of ethnic friction. For example Beirut might want to be set up as another province but the Lebanones Arabs would oppose that. From their perspective they (Arabs) had voted to join Istania and even taken in Bosnian/Albanian Muslim migrants but they did not join Istania to lose their Beirut to the migrants from Bosnia in Europe. I hope by contexulaizing it you can understand the situation. There is no ethnic group 'Pakistan' but is made up of four ethnic based provinces with some migrants from India.

This is a map of British Indian Empire with the myriad of province/ethnic groups/princely states all under the suzureinty of Britain in 1909. You can see the outlay of Pakistan. The four provinces on the left side (North West) opted to federate as Pakistan in 1947 as they were Muslim dominant. Each had one dominant ethnic group, with it's own language and culture like Turkey, Syria, Lebanon and Azerbaijan with common Muslim heritage. The provinces on the map are Balochistan, Sindh, Punjab and North West Frontier Province.

How it would shape up.

British Indian Empire today

and the British era provinces today that make Pakistan. If you refer to the 1909 British Indian Empire you will see their outliers..

In fact what you have is by European standards four differant countries with one (Sindh) have huge number of migrants from India in Karachi. Slicing of Karachi from Sindh would be taken as slicing Marseille from France because of it's Arab migrants. So the whole subject is very politically sensitive and roots of which go back into history.

I think the only possible thing might be to ask Punjab to dived itself into North, West and South as it is the biggest province and least liable to cause political ramifications.

Army have now issues with this, lay men Pakistanis cant have any issues with it as it is there for facilitate them basically. As far as politician and political parties concern they have all sort of issues because this "status quo"is facilitation them and them only. Apart from all this intentional complexities for political and personal gain.

I agree it should be strictly on the administrative purposes only. There is a chain of managing financial and administrative mechanisms takes place after new provinces, census will also be easy task to manage, then you can easily allocate electoral constituencies as well. The only thing needed is a honesty and honesty only.

 

[Well.wisher]

I agree, I just hope that he wins the election with a two-thirds majority in parliament and enforces everything that he has said he will do.

Ameen son . Our prayers are with him .

to

 

[AshenSparrow]

I Also have a solution instead of splitting all these provinces how about solving problems on district level.
No matter how much you split it won't work
1 corruption
2 ignorance
3 cast influence
4 ethnic problem
5 language barrier

Now if you try to sort out the problem at district level it would be much more manage able and you wont even need to create a tottaly new system

How would you deal with idiots who value their ethnicity more than their nationality? Any attempts to promote Urdu as a unifying force linguistically is met with hostile reactions. You cannot deal with the caste and corruption because it is difficult to identify exactly where it is taking place, documenting it and taking it to court. If you create more provinces, then they will not be able to influence the senate for stupid reasons.

 

[Taxzu]

what happens when one province has no big city and is already poor? when we didnt develop quetta well enough which already was in separate province how will we develop cities in new province.

 

[AshenSparrow]

what happens when one province has no big city and is already poor? when we didnt develop quetta well enough which already was in separate province how will we develop cities in new province.

This is why I believe that every province must have at least 2 urban centres. In Sindh, Karachi and Hyderabad can form the nucleus of two separate provinces, each with a smaller urban centre, trade will be encouraged between the two within the province, preferably, one would be agricultural while the other industrial. Balochistan would remain largely the same, until the Government makes serious efforts to map its resources and encourage people to move and work there, Balochistan will remain poor.

It will be best if you have the central government target one province and make it rich, such as Karachi, use its revenues in taxes to improve another area and one by one move around.

 

[SoulSpokesman]

Kaptaan sb,

I think the only possible thing might be to ask Punjab to dived itself into North, West and South as it is the biggest province and least liable to cause political ramifications.

That is the conventional wisdom, may I flip it around and suggest something which may sound wierd but may provide greater stability and longevity to IR of Pakistan. What about keeping Punjab as it is and in fact add districts which have majority or Punjabi or pro-Punjabi people, say Hindko and Hazara districts of NWFP (I believe PMLN is very strong there), canal districts of Northern Sindh (where Punjoo immigrants are now a majority) to Punjab. And breakup the smaller provinces - Sindh into rural Sindh (sindhi dominated) and Khi/Hyd (Mojo dominated), NWFP into Pukhtoonkhwa and Hazara/Hindo distt separated or merged into Punjab and B'stan split into Baloch, Brohi and Pushtoon states. It will make the most loyal state stronger and larger while the states which are relatively more prone to being dissatisfied broken up into smaller and possibly mutually antagonistic unit. The Centre wud be strengthened and provines which cud potentially have centrifugal tendencies weakened.

Regards

 

[AshenSparrow]

Kaptaan sb,

I think the only possible thing might be to ask Punjab to dived itself into North, West and South as it is the biggest province and least liable to cause political ramifications.

That is the conventional wisdom, may I flip it around and suggest something which may sound wierd but may provide greater stability and longevity to IR of Pakistan. What about keeping Punjab as it is and in fact add districts which have majority or Punjabi or pro-Punjabi people, say Hindko and Hazara districts of NWFP (I believe PMLN is very strong there), canal districts of Northern Sindh (where Punjoo immigrants are now a majority) to Punjab. And breakup the smaller provinces - Sindh into rural Sindh (sindhi dominated) and Khi/Hyd (Mojo dominated), NWFP into Pukhtoonkhwa and Hazara/Hindo distt separated or merged into Punjab and B'stan split into Baloch, Brohi and Pushtoon states. It will make the most loyal state stronger and larger while the states which are relatively more prone to being dissatisfied broken up into smaller and possibly mutually antagonistic unit. The Centre wud be strengthened and provines which cud potentially have centrifugal tendencies weakened.

Regards

This will just lead to a monopoly of power. This is a terrible idea. Punjab has demonstrated that it will dominate the other provinces and use them for its benefit. It did the same with East Pakistan, where is all the development in Pakistan? Punjab. Where do all the revenue go to? Punjab. Where is the capital? Punjab.

The reason why Sindh, Balochistan and KPK are so angry with the system is because everything is geared for Punjab. Punjab needs to be brought to parity with the other provinces. It is stupid to break other provinces up and leave Punjab it will be a wolf among a flock of sheep.

No. No. No

 

[Narcissist]

It's all a matter of how power is delegated. If it's too much of a top-down approach, then more provinces makes sense.

The provinces thing is cosmetic to be honest.

 

[SoulSpokesman]

AS sb,

My suggestion dealt with the narrow prism of stability, not equity. As you rightly suggest equity wud be grossly violated. Sadly we live in an unfair world.

Regards

 

[Narcissist]

Obviously we need more provinces. Punjab is too huge and more provinces should be made out of it for better administration. Same goes for Sindh, Balochistan and KP. Similarily port cities like Gwadar and Karachi should be made into self governing provinces.

Most of the country believes Punjab unfairly hogs all the resources, so yes... I would agree, in the interest of having people believe it's not a one-sided country, Punjab divided is not a bad idea.

This will just lead to a monopoly of power. This is a terrible idea. Punjab has demonstrated that it will dominate the other provinces and use them for its benefit. It did the same with East Pakistan, where is all the development in Pakistan? Punjab. Where do all the revenue go to? Punjab. Where is the capital? Punjab.

The reason why Sindh, Balochistan and KPK are so angry with the system is because everything is geared for Punjab. Punjab needs to be brought to parity with the other provinces. It is stupid to break other provinces up and leave Punjab it will be a wolf among a flock of sheep.

No. No. No

That guy's an indiot... why would he suggest anything that actually benefits Pakistan? Expand punjab, yet he never suggests KPK get northern Balochistan, or Attock and Mianwali. He could at least masquerade some neutrality, but expecting that from an indiot is a pipe dream.

 

[saiyan0321]

Well, Vergennes comparing France with Pakistan is like apples and oranges. The two have entirely differant historical and ethno-social trajectories. Pakistan is a federation and is not a generic state. What many of the members here do not appreciate is Pakistan came after and the generic provinces that make it came before. Pakistan is the child of the provinces.

In 1940s British Indian Empire had lots of administrative units. Each was like a brick that had been acquired by Britain eitheir through military conquest or been brought under indirect British suzerainty. In the latter these states accepted overlorship of Britain but retained internal rule. The best analogy I can give you is imagine a powerful external force landed on the Spanish Costa Del Sol (say Chinese) in 1600s and then after subduing the Spanish and establishing capital in Madrid of their "Chinese European Empire" spread north and east. Over the next 200 years they subjugated France, Germany, Belguim, Itay, Poland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Latvia, Serbia, Greece, Turkey, Azerbaijhan, Syria, Lebanon. This then becomes known as the "Chinese European Empire".

Each one of these countries exists as a province of the empire being ran by Chinese officials from Madrid. Then as independance approaches the Muslim's within the empire insist that when they Chinese leave they don't want to be part of a new European Republic because and insist on having their own state. A vote is held and Turkey, Syria, Azerbaijhain, Lebanon (being Muslim dominant) opt out to go their own way and set up their own federation to be called 'Istania'.

As the Chinese European Empire is dissolved two new states take shape. The Union Of Europe Republic and the Istania Islamic Republic. The problem that surfaces soon is large numbers of Bosnian, Alabanian Muslim's are left inside the European Republic - some of them migrate to Istania and settle in Beirut where they become the dominant group in numbers and displacing the local Arabs in that city. Istania choses Ankara to be the new capital.

Istania would have four provinces - Turkey, Azerbaijan, Syria and Lebanon. As each of them had elected to join the fedration it would be very hard for the federation to de-establish what had set it up - the provinces. In addition there would be problems of ethnic friction. For example Beirut might want to be set up as another province but the Lebanones Arabs would oppose that. From their perspective they (Arabs) had voted to join Istania and even taken in Bosnian/Albanian Muslim migrants but they did not join Istania to lose their Beirut to the migrants from Bosnia in Europe. I hope by contexulaizing it you can understand the situation. There is no ethnic group 'Pakistan' but is made up of four ethnic based provinces with some migrants from India.

This is a map of British Indian Empire with the myriad of province/ethnic groups/princely states all under the suzureinty of Britain in 1909. You can see the outlay of Pakistan. The four provinces on the left side (North West) opted to federate as Pakistan in 1947 as they were Muslim dominant. Each had one dominant ethnic group, with it's own language and culture like Turkey, Syria, Lebanon and Azerbaijan with common Muslim heritage. The provinces on the map are Balochistan, Sindh, Punjab and North West Frontier Province.

How it would shape up.

British Indian Empire today

and the British era provinces today that make Pakistan. If you refer to the 1909 British Indian Empire you will see their outliers..

In fact what you have is by European standards four differant countries with one (Sindh) have huge number of migrants from India in Karachi. Slicing of Karachi from Sindh would be taken as slicing Marseille from France because of it's Arab migrants. So the whole subject is very politically sensitive and roots of which go back into history.

I think the only possible thing might be to ask Punjab to dived itself into North, West and South as it is the biggest province and least liable to cause political ramifications.

@WAJsal this post deserves to be featured at the top. :p . In one post he has highlighted the exact problem pakistan has in creating new provinces. I advocate more provinces but after deeper study I found how impossible it is as pakistan is a composite of ethnic nations. Ethnic nations that have history on those lands and claim on those lands. In fact their own ethnicism is so huge that they would accept expansion e.g. northern Baluchistan and FATA merging with kpk but would not accept separation e.g. south and north kpk.

After the 21st amendment pakistan has become even more a federation bcz it allows provincial autonomy to the extent that provinces can raise paramilitary forces e.g dolphin force in lahore ( yeah they are a joke but a better govt would have raised a better force) and create taxes to create revenues to a greater extent.

This raises a question. It may sound foolish but I am here to learn so bear with me.

44% of Pakistan's land mass is currently with 5% of the population and most of that 5% is located near the capital or more developed urban areas of northern Baluchistan. Before Baluchistan was kharan, makran, kalat and las bela and gawadar was with Oman. Why didn't we simply make five provinces over there when we had the opportunity? We make it one large area that has become administratively difficult for already and weak and incompetent govts. At least with five areas you would have at least five capitals which would be worked upon by any decent govt.

Well now its next to impossible. You talk about breaking sindh and they cry we are leaving, you talk about breaking Punjab and they cry ' we will due before we let that happen' and its the same with others.

 

[Kabira]

This will just lead to a monopoly of power. This is a terrible idea. Punjab has demonstrated that it will dominate the other provinces and use them for its benefit. It did the same with East Pakistan, where is all the development in Pakistan? Punjab. Where do all the revenue go to? Punjab. Where is the capital? Punjab.

The reason why Sindh, Balochistan and KPK are so angry with the system is because everything is geared for Punjab. Punjab needs to be brought to parity with the other provinces. It is stupid to break other provinces up and leave Punjab it will be a wolf among a flock of sheep.

No. No. No

Listen, 60% of Pakistan GDP is from Punjab. Of course it will have more say, genius. Dividing punjab will not mean other provinces by magic will get more.

Instead of provinces we should look at north-south angle. South population have seen more growth then north thanks to internal migrations to Karachi. In future I also see population expanding along Pakistan coast of Sindh and Balochistan and with it there will be shift in power. Hopefully Pakistanis will get mature enough to not repeat same mistakes like ones in Karachi.

 

[Sheikh Rauf]

When there is no issue bring Kala bagh Dam and provinces. Let's just focus on corruption first thing first then we sud consider.

 

[Hell hound]

I think the only possible thing might be to ask Punjab to dived itself into North, West and South as it is the biggest province and least liable to cause political ramifications.

why should only Punjab lose power and get divided into pieces while other retain theirs.

 

[ebrahym]

Before you jump the gun on me, I think provinces in Pakistan should be created strictly for administrative purposes (based on urban centers & economic growth), not ethnic or lingual grounds.

Some facts about Pakistan: Punjab contributes about 57%, Sindh contributes about 28%, KPK contributes about 8%, Balochistan about 3%, FATA about 1%, Northern Areas about 1%, & Islamabad capital territory about 2% of Pakistan's GDP.

Karachi itself contributes about 20% of Pakistan's GDP. Lahore contributes about 12% of Pakistan's economy. The third largest city of Pakistan, Faisalabad contributes about 9% of Pakistan's GDP.

These are the main 10 'urban centers/cities' of Pakistan, namely: Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad/Rawalpindi, Faisalabad, Hyderabad, Peshawar, Quetta, Multan, Gujranwala/Sialkot.

The three cities; Lahore, Sialkot & Gujranwala are located very close to each other. Faisalabad is located at a 'reasonable distance' from Lahore/Sialkot/Gujranwala, but still, not that far away from them either. In other words, these four cities are found in a pretty concentrated area.

Multan (in central-south Punjab) & Bahwalpur (close to the Punjab-Sindh border) is left isolated from these cities. A huge amount of resources are being spent on Lahore/Sialkot/Gujranwala, but nearly not enough on Multan & Bahwalpur, even though they are very important cities. In other words, South Punjab has been left a bit isolated from the growth of central-North Punjab. The urban centers are confined, & need to be spread out more. A new South Punjab state will help develop Multan & Bahawulpur urban centers even faster. As of now, Multan is being envisioned as a future 'Pearl City', & lots of work is being done to develop it. These efforts should only be increased, & South Punjab needs to be put in perspective.

In Sindh, the two urban centers of Karachi & Hyderabad are located at a reasonable distance, but both are in South Sindh. The urbanization of Bahawalpur in South Punjab close to North Sindh will help urbanization spread into North Sindh as well.

In Balochistan, Quetta is the biggest urban center. But it is also very volatile being close to the Afghan border. Army must make prolonged efforts to make it safe (which will eventually result in prosperous city). Gwadar must be developed & urbanized at a quicker pace so that the Baloch people can reap its benefits. Mining in Zhob is already taking place. But the distance between Quetta & Gwadar is too great, & there should be another urban center in between Quetta & Gwadar.

In my opinion, there must be at least 2-3 urban centers in each province/region, that are reasonably distanced from each other & not confined together, & do not have any safety/security concerns.

Currently:

a) Sindh has Karachi & Hyderabad

b) Punjab has Lahore & Faisalabad

c) Northern Pakistan (KPK & Northern Areas) has Islamabad-Rawalpindi/Abbottabad & Peshawar (a bit unsafe these days)

d) Balochistan has Quetta (very unsafe these days)

e) Azad Kashmir has Muzzaffarabad

Security must be enhanced in Peshawar & (especially) Quetta. Pakistan must give provincial status to South Punjab, Hazaras (maybe), & create more urban centers within the country. Great work is being done in Multan, this must be extended to Bahawalpur, Gwadar & other cities.

it is more than feasible and much much more then need
we need it like a fish needs gills
more provinces, more govt jobs
more federal pillars

but there are some drawbacks too
perhaps the time is not very opportune right now