Why not indigenous route for Submarine force?

[surya kiran]

Ins Arihant is SSBN and not SSK and it can be SSN, Attack submarines are not domain of Diesel submarines , look at US navy where attack submarines are all nuclear .

Yes wanted to say SSN, but was typing and just happened to be type SSK,

Chakra can be SSBN but it has been downgraded by Russians for SSN role , it is common IQ that submarines can be made to take different roles .

Chakra cannot be an SSBN. Seriously. Please read up. There is a reason, why the B in SSBN is for ballistic. It can NEVER launch ballistic missiles. Its an Akula class for god's sake. It is quite evident you have no idea what you are talking about.

Mate it is nearly impossible to convert a SSK into a SSN or SSBN. There are many practical problems including placing the mini reactor in such a way that it's isolated from other compartments of Sub. It helps in reducing the radiation dose faced by crew members overall. SSK is slower than a SSN either on surface or below water. SSN's speed comes down when it's on surface compared to when it's under water but still faster than SSKs. It happens due to its design. As you named USS Nautilus, its design was older so it was able to go faster on surface while underwater speed came down. For second part, stealth, SSK coupled with good AIP is more silent than a SSN. It can be used as a moving listening post. But a SSN which is more noisy(compared to SSK) can be useful in hunting with intelligence gathering & special ops. Speed gives it the lethality. They can even go deeper than a SSK. There is only one problem with SSN that there is no effective alternate to nuke power while maintaining the status. SSK can shut down its reactor & restart anytime while SSN can't because it will will take a lot of time to again make it working.

My best advice for our navy will be to go for 2 Arihant class SSN, 2 same class SSGN & 2 replacement of Arihant class as a stop gap measure. We can induct them with in 2020 if navy want. 1 single SSN performs equal to 3 SSKs in coastal areas while in deeper sea 1 SSN performs equal to 5 SSKs. So hypothetically we will have capability of at least 12 to 15 working SSKs at our disposal in any time.

I know man. I was being sarcastic.

 

[mirage2K]

Its a fact that India has limited resources and talent because its still a poor country and many of its best and brightest leave India. This is on top of the fact that India do not produce that many talented engineers relative to its size of population. As a result, India need to use its resources wisely.

what is your definition of talented engineers ??? Have a look here http://www.engineeringuk.com/_resources/documents/Engineering_Graduates_in_China_and_India_-_EngineeringUK_-_March_2012.pdf

India has limited resources and talent. So it is placing its limited talent and resources on items that it cannot buy overseas and buy the rest of items that others are willing to lease or sell.

read this too...your Chinese myth has been busted The myth of Chinese and Indian engineers | Editorial Comment content from Machine Design

But there are still problems with that Chinese statistic. It seems in China an auto mechanic is an engineer. So is a technician. It seems there is no uniform definition of engineer in Chinese. And according to Wadhwa, “The skills of (Chinese) engineers are so poor that comparisons don’t make sense. We predicted that Chinese engineers would face unemployment. Indeed, media reports have confirmed that the majority of Chinese engineers don’t take engineering jobs but become bureaucrats or factory workers.” Of course, you can get ahead in life as a bureaucrat. In fact, it’s said that eight out of the nine current Politburo members in China have engineering degrees.

 

[faithfulguy]

RISING SUN , i agree with your views , Modern Diesel engines along with AIP in SSK are making them near invisible but lack of range and weapons carrying capacity also makes them good for protection off territorial waters , our SSBN will be operated in deeper waters so there is a requirement for SSN for protection and escort even for AC and that's why we have Chakra but we will need our own fleet someday so it is not a bad idea to produce some SSN based on Arihant class , we sure will be moving to heaver SSBN in future .

Also, the problem with modern fleets is that SSK are not fast enough to keep up with the fleet. SSK are only use for defending territorial water and they need to be resurfaced frequently enough for the enemy to detect them. Also, AIP technology is not mature enough to use for real warfare. AIP is basically use for escaping enemy detection without the need of surface. The speed of SSK with AIP is same as electric speed, which means very slow and not sufficient to keep up with the surface fleet.

So in another word, the Russian and Chinese SSK are not capable of catching up with the US carrier fleet.

what is your definition of talented engineers ??? Have a look here http://www.engineeringuk.com/_resources/documents/Engineering_Graduates_in_China_and_India_-_EngineeringUK_-_March_2012.pdf



read this too...your Chinese myth has been busted The myth of Chinese and Indian engineers | Editorial Comment content from Machine Design

Lets discuss the topic and don't troll for once.

 

[a.kumar]

Yes wanted to say SSN, but was typing and just happened to be type SSK,



Chakra cannot be an SSBN. Seriously. Please read up. There is a reason, why the B in SSBN is for ballistic. It can NEVER launch ballistic missiles. Its an Akula class for god's sake. It is quite evident you have no idea what you are talking about.



I know man. I was being sarcastic.

Seriously i said Akula class can be SSBN and never said it is SSBN , i know what SSBN is , point is Arihant class is SSBN but it is also SSBN with Displacement of 6000 tons which is lowest in SSBN class, which also means it is much smaller then Akula SSN , so figure it out .

 

[kaykay]

..................delete

 

[mirage2K]

Also, the problem with modern fleets is that SSK are not fast enough to keep up with the fleet. SSK are only use for defending territorial water and they need to be resurfaced frequently enough for the enemy to detect them. Also, AIP technology is not mature enough to use for real warfare. AIP is basically use for escaping enemy detection without the need of surface. The speed of SSK with AIP is same as electric speed, which means very slow and not sufficient to keep up with the surface fleet.

So in another word, the Russian and Chinese SSK are not capable of catching up with the US carrier fleet.



Lets discuss the topic and don't troll for once.

Don't accuse me of trolling, I am only refuting your claims....I never troll on any threads....it is you who is always trolling on India related threads...

 

[surya kiran]

Seriously i said Akula class can be SSBN and never said it is SSBN , i know what SSBN is , point is Arihant class is SSBN but it is also SSBN with Displacement of 6000 tons which is lowest in SSBN class, which also means it is much smaller then Akula SSN , so figure it out .

Akula can be SSBN? Dude what are you talking about? Do you even understand the structural changes required "to be an SSBN" Seriously man! The Akula is a cruise missile carrying SSN. Do you understand the difference between a cruise missile carrying SSN and a ballistic missile submarine????

Here is some stuff for you to read.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...lear-powered_ballistic_missle_submarine_2.jpg

The above are ballistic missile submarines. the below is also a Ballistic missile submarine and its similar in size, in fact smaller than the Arihant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington-class_submarine

As far as the Akula goes, it is a cruise missile carrying SSN. If it were to be a ballistic missile submarine, it would need structural changes, changes in software, propulsion and everything. The main common thing between the new machine and the Akula, would be that both are submarines.

Hope this makes things clear?

 

[Skull and Bones]

There are plans for a 4000 tonnes class SSN by IN, along with a 2300 tonnes class SSK with indigenous AIP based on Kilo.

 

[surya kiran]

There are plans for a 4000 tonnes class SSN by IN, along with a 2300 tonnes class SSK with indigenous AIP based on Kilo.

Who? please don't tell me drdo is developing its own version!!!! Fir tho ye project bhi gaya in our quarter century plan mein.

 

[Skull and Bones]

Who? please don't tell me drdo is developing its own version!!!! Fir tho ye project bhi gaya in our quarter century plan mein.

AIP has already been developed, and up and running for 2 years.

Indigenous AIP submarine in 4 to 5 years: DRDO : Latest Headlines, News - India Today

 

[sancho]

AIP has already been developed, and up and running for 2 years.

Indigenous AIP submarine in 4 to 5 years: DRDO : Latest Headlines, News - India Today

Nope, it's just another promise of DRDO. They should start with something simpler and more basic, like the diesel-electric propulsion, which remainst the main propulsion of modern SSKs.

 

[Skull and Bones]

Nope, it's just another promise of DRDO. They should start with something simpler and more basic, like the diesel-electric propulsion, which remainst the main propulsion of modern SSKs.

Apparently we have seen a working prototype during my internship, based on Methanol based Fuel cell, and that was during the late 2011.

But my internship was based on solar cell, so don't have much knowledge on the technical tit-bits of the prototype.

 

[RISING SUN]

Most countries build SSN before SSBN. India is the first country to build SSBN first before SSN. But building SSBN can be independent of SSN.

Russia would be willing to lease SSN to India, so that could be why India never created its own SSN.

Russia has leased SSN to India & will be doing the same in near future again. There is something called number game. Neither Russia can be able to lease sizable no of SSNs to India nor India can take lease no of SSNs. So India will have to develop SSN if not today then in near future. Best option is to convert first 4 smaller SSBNs into SSN & SSGN & remaining bigger boats can be used for nuke deterrence. That will be a lethal combination to deal with. Frankly speaking I believe SSNs should be smaller(in league of big SSKs). That way we can get multiple benefits. We don't need centralized weapon system in one place. Rather it should be distributed in nature.

 

[Shinigami]

what is your definition of talented engineers ??? Have a look here http://www.engineeringuk.com/_resources/documents/Engineering_Graduates_in_China_and_India_-_EngineeringUK_-_March_2012.pdf

very informative link. dispels many myths about china > india in this aspect

 

[faithfulguy]

Russia has leased SSN to India & will be doing the same in near future again. There is something called number game. Neither Russia can be able to lease sizable no of SSNs to India nor India can take lease no of SSNs. So India will have to develop SSN if not today then in near future. Best option is to convert first 4 smaller SSBNs into SSN & SSGN & remaining bigger boats can be used for nuke deterrence. That will be a lethal combination to deal with. Frankly speaking I believe SSNs should be smaller(in league of big SSKs). That way we can get multiple benefits. We don't need centralized weapon system in one place. Rather it should be distributed in nature.

Thanks for you comment and it makes a lot of sense. But as India is in able to lease SSN, its a good idea to focus on SSBN. the reason is because being able to build a SSN does not mean that its the same as SSBN. But the reverse is also true. Having said that, the technical hurdle to go from SSBN to SSN is actually smaller than the other way around. With limited resources, India should focus on the technology that enable it to progress in the long run.

Britain build their own SSBN. But US supplies ICBMs on the subs. (This is possible because both are declared nuclear powers). This is because the Brits decide that building their own missiles is not a good use of resources. I believe they made a sensible choice. And India going for SSBN immediately is a good choice as well as its still in the learning stage instead of operational stage when it comes to operate nuclear subs.