Why liberalism is actually the biggest threat which Pakistan faces apart from insurgencies

[AZMwi]

While I'm against liberalism I'm not going to say the state of this country is attributed to liberalism.

It's the lack of meritocracy and nepotism/corruption. Goofs running a country will create an absolute circus.

The thing with Islamic leaders is that they are all reactionary and quite frankly unintelligent - take a look at TLP threatening to bomb France, utter stupidity.

You have to be Islamic but also educated and intelligent. Unfortunately in Pakistan the Islamic are all radicals and extremely reactionary without any sense of pragmatism or geopolitics.

I wish Islamic teachings and curriculum about Pakistan's national identity & history were refined and produced more pragmatic nationalist thinkers who also valued Islamic morals and values in society.

An ideology of Pakistani Islamo-nationalism.

Gotta disagree with you on that one. what motivated the TLP to boycott/bomb France?? Look what's happening in Sweden. You are saying that Muslims are becoming radical but you are ignoring the west. The burning of Qur'an, banning of hijab, banning of halal slaughter, blasphemy of Prophet Muhammad Peace be upon him and all other things aren't a daily occurrence in the west?? They claim to be liberal and secular but their actions say otherwise. Muslims are being killed in Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Kashmir, Palestine, Myanmar, India for decades and still it's the Muslims fault? They blame Jihad but when was the last time Muslim world declared Jihad against the infidels?

The west has killed millions of innocent Muslims in their illegal occupations and wars and still it's the Muslims fault!!!

 

[Great Janjua]

While I'm against liberalism I'm not going to say the state of this country is attributed to liberalism.

It's the lack of meritocracy and nepotism/corruption. Goofs running a country will create an absolute circus.

The thing with Islamic leaders is that they are all reactionary and quite frankly unintelligent - take a look at TLP threatening to bomb France, utter stupidity.

You have to be Islamic but also educated and intelligent. Unfortunately in Pakistan the Islamic are all radicals and extremely reactionary without any sense of pragmatism or geopolitics.

I wish Islamic teachings and curriculum about Pakistan's national identity & history were refined and produced more pragmatic nationalist thinkers who also valued Islamic morals and values in society.

An ideology of Pakistani Islamo-nationalism.

You need to sort your education system out first which gives you visas based upon gender studies and what not these same people have termed the word Islamists to degrade fellow countrymen they lack no empathy they d*ckride the West for acceptance.

Gotta disagree with you on that one. what motivated the TLP to boycott/bomb France?? Look what's happening in Sweden. You are saying that Muslims are becoming radical but you are ignoring the west. The burning of Qur'an, banning of hijab, banning of halal slaughter, blasphemy of Prophet Muhammad Peace be upon him and all other things aren't a daily occurrence in the west?? They claim to be liberal and secular but their actions say otherwise. Muslims are being killed in Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Kashmir, Palestine, Myanmar, India for decades and still it's the Muslims fault? They blame Jihad but when was the last time Muslim world declared Jihad against the infidels?

The west has killed millions of innocent Muslims in their illegal occupations and wars and still it's the Muslims fault!!!

Lets not forget the image of Islam these libbus portrayed after invading half of middle east all these countries you mentioned were doing absolutely fine in terms of economy and Human development. Liberals have a cope mechanism where they label any practising Muslim with knowledge of his deen as a Kattar or Mullah yet gullible people fall for their degeneracy.

 

[TheSolution]

Gotta disagree with you on that one. what motivated the TLP to boycott/bomb France?? Look what's happening in Sweden. You are saying that Muslims are becoming radical but you are ignoring the west. The burning of Qur'an, banning of hijab, banning of halal slaughter, blasphemy of Prophet Muhammad Peace be upon him and all other things aren't a daily occurrence in the west?? They claim to be liberal and secular but their actions say otherwise. Muslims are being killed in Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Kashmir, Palestine, Myanmar, India for decades and still it's the Muslims fault? They blame Jihad but when was the last time Muslim world declared Jihad against the infidels?

The west has killed millions of innocent Muslims in their illegal occupations and wars and still it's the Muslims fault!!!

As I said this is reactionary and no real pragmatic thinking. Neither did I blame Muslims at all.

Belief in Islam doesn't dictate whether you'd be good leader because we have an abundance of believers - being a leader requires specific other qualities the same as any other thing. Which is the main issue in the Muslim world, you (not you) miss these qualities but just scream about Islam and think that's enough.

You (not you, but Muslims today in general) don't understand how to interact with different geopolitical environments, professional norms, social cultures, psychologically, in proportion to your own realistic capabilities, intelligently. Being a believer alone is not enough.

Screaming to bomb different countries in retaliation to a grave insult while belonging to a bankrupt nation under the foot of the global west is an utterly stupid notion, illogical, and unrealistic. It signs your seal of never actually coming to power. Can you tell me what would happen to Pakistan if it actually did that? Why you think it's a good idea?

We need intellligent pragmatic leaders who actually assess their responses rather than reactionary unrealistic responses that are political suicide and won't achieve anything.

Did you see how Turkey reacted? They took into account their own domestic situation and reacted pragmatically rather than calling for a bombing.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1616940589034995712

https://twitter.com/x/status/1617121756694695936

https://twitter.com/x/status/1616935974478512128

 

[VCheng]

None of what I say is absolute or definitive, so it doesn't matter.

Also I'd say overseas Pakistanis arguably do more for the country than even the locals so their opinion should definitely be heard.

None of what you say matters, as you mention, but it is the hypocrisy you show that is the problem. Remittances help, yes, but they also create more problems than it solves. Please keep that in mind too.

 

[AZMwi]

As I said this is reactionary and no real pragmatic thinking. Neither did I blame Muslims at all.

Belief in Islam doesn't dictate whether you'd be good leader because we have an abundance of believers - being a leader requires specific other qualities the same as any other thing. Which is the main issue in the Muslim world, you (not you) miss these qualities but just scream about Islam and think that's enough.

You (not you, but Muslims today in general) don't understand how to interact with different geopolitical environments, professional norms, social cultures, psychologically, in proportion to your own realistic capabilities, intelligently. Being a believer alone is not enough.

Screaming to bomb different countries in retaliation to a grave insult while belonging to a bankrupt nation under the foot of the global west is an utterly stupid notion, illogical, and unrealistic. It signs your seal of never actually coming to power. Can you tell me what would happen to Pakistan if it actually did that? Why you think it's a good idea?

We need intellligent pragmatic leaders who actually assess their responses rather than reactionary unrealistic responses that are political suicide and won't achieve anything.

Did you see how Turkey reacted? They took into account their own domestic situation and reacted pragmatically rather than calling for a bombing.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1616940589034995712

https://twitter.com/x/status/1617121756694695936

https://twitter.com/x/status/1616935974478512128

This is the problem with the Muslims these days. We are worried about what west thinks about our reactions rather than what Islam says. If West tells/ thinks hijab is bad should we ban hijad? West says adopt homosexuality, should we do that? West says become secular/atheist so should we leave our religion??
Islam is not a begharat religion bro. I often say this on this forum that there is a very very thin line between being peaceful and being a begharat. ALLAH ALMIGHTY sent Thousands of Prophets towards Bani Israel and even they were unable to guide these people to righteousness and you think that we common Muslims can change their nature by not reacting to their blasphemy???
Prophet MUHAMMAD PEACE BE UPON HIM said that the non believers will never be satisfied with until you become one of them.

 

[TheSolution]

This is the problem with the Muslims these days. We are worried about what west thinks about our reactions rather than what Islam says. If West tells/ thinks hijab is bad should we ban hijad? West says adopt homosexuality, should we do that? West says become secular/atheist so should we leave our religion??
Islam is not a begharat religion bro. I often say this on this forum that there is a very very thin line between being peaceful and being a begharat. ALLAH ALMIGHTY sent Thousands of Prophets towards Bani Israel and even they were unable to guide these people to righteousness and you think that we common Muslims can change their nature by not reacting to their blasphemy???
Prophet MUHAMMAD PEACE BE UPON HIM said that the non believers will never be satisfied with until you become one of them.

Please reread my message because no where in there did I indicate it's because of what the "west thinks".

Ffs do you not realise you're a bankrupt nation literally reliant on the global west, considering your trade and other things?

It's just an utterly retarded response to call for bombing it and hurts Muslims more than help them!!

Acting like a retard without considering your situation and just going crazy is exactly what's wrong with the Muslim world. Anyone with a slight belief in Islam suddenly thinks he's capable of being a leader and thinks he has the power of China or the USA.

This is the definition of extremism, no logical thought process of what the fk you are asking for or thinking of the consequences.

Please just read my post properly to understand what I mean.

 

[AZMwi]

Please reread my message because no where in there did I indicate it's because of what the "west thinks".

Ffs do you not realise you're a bankrupt nation literally reliant on the global west, considering your trade and other things?

It's just an utterly retarded response to call for bombing it and hurts Muslims more than help them!!

Acting like a retard without considering your situation and just going crazy is exactly what's wrong with the Muslim world. Anyone with a slight belief in Islam suddenly thinks he's capable of being a leader and thinks he has the power of China or the USA.

This is the definition of extremism, no logical thought process of what the fk you are asking for or thinking of the consequences.

Please just read my post properly to understand what I mean.

When unarmed Muslims decided to attack Byzantine and Sassanid empires two of the most powerful superpowers with thousands of years of military experience, organised and fully equipped armies simultaneously they never thought about these things. When Taliban fought for 20 years against the most powerful and modern military alliance in the history of mankind with small arms they never thought of these things. And look what was the result.
We are facing this zillat because nowadays we value this life and this world more than death and religion. Food for thought

 

[TheSolution]

When unarmed Muslims decided to attack Byzantine and Sassanid empires two of the most powerful superpowers with thousands of years of military experience, organised and fully equipped armies simultaneously they never thought about these things. When Taliban fought for 20 years against the most powerful and modern military alliance in the history of mankind with small arms they never thought of these things. And look what was the result.
We are facing this zillat because nowadays we value this life and this world more than death and religion. Food for thought

The Taliban had no choice but to fight as they were under physical occupation with no choice left. American boots on the ground. Hence the response was calculated.

And you cannot compare those times with today where there are various non-kinetic means to chokehold a nation such as trade and the massive technological gaps between nations today. Use common sense.

Please be realistic instead of living in some fantasy world and trying to drag an entire nation down with you!

The best thing for Muslims is to be pragmatic, I'm not telling you to not be upset but you must assess the pros and cons, cost and benefits.

It would simply be an utterly stupid reaction to have for a country like Pakistan. Having faith does not make you worthy of being a leader, remember this.

The best thing for Pakistan is to build it's indigenous capabilities, stabilise and grow it's economy, become largely self-sustainable.

The appropriate reaction was what Turkey had, not acting like some fictional superhero and expecting to win. That's delusion.

 

[TheSolution]

Lets not forget the image of Islam these libbus portrayed after invading half of middle east all these countries you mentioned were doing absolutely fine in terms of economy and Human development. Liberals have a cope mechanism where they label any practising Muslim with knowledge of his deen as a Kattar or Mullah yet gullible people fall for their degeneracy.

Bro... I'm literally not a liberal at all I'm the one who started this thread and you can read my replies.

But he's suggesting some utterly stupid things which is exactly what's wrong with the Muslim world and why it doesn't thrive.

Any idiot with faith in Islam thinks he can be a leader and achieve delusional things, but none of them consider LOGIC or what makes a good leader. No pragmatism at all.

There are many ways to deal with situations like Sweden's in both covert and overt manners.

Think long-term, if you want to be able to retaliate on a large scale, get at the levels of Russia and China and then act tough.

What he is suggesting is like being broke asf, but taking out credit to buy a ferrari. Instead of working on the essential needs for survival, sustainable income, building savings, etc, AND THEN get that ferrari.

There's no logic and pragmatism and this is why the Muslim world is seen as an utter joke. Having faith alone doesn't make you a good quality leader.

 

[VCheng]

When unarmed Muslims decided to attack Byzantine and Sassanid empires two of the most powerful superpowers with thousands of years of military experience, organised and fully equipped armies simultaneously they never thought about these things. When Taliban fought for 20 years against the most powerful and modern military alliance in the history of mankind with small arms they never thought of these things. And look what was the result.
We are facing this zillat because nowadays we value this life and this world more than death and religion. Food for thought

So when are you leaving Australia to join such brave Muslims?

 

[Great Janjua]

Bro... I'm literally not a liberal at all I'm the one who started this thread and you can read my replies.

But he's suggesting some utterly stupid things which is exactly what's wrong with the Muslim world and why it doesn't thrive.

Any idiot with faith in Islam thinks he can be a leader and achieve delusional things, but none of them consider LOGIC or what makes a good leader. No pragmatism at all.

There are many ways to deal with situations like Sweden's in both covert and overt manners.

Think long-term, if you want to be able to retaliate on a large scale, get at the levels of Russia and China and then act tough.

What he is suggesting is like being broke asf, but taking out credit to buy a ferrari. Instead of working on the essential needs for survival, sustainable income, building savings, etc, AND THEN get that ferrari.

There's no logic and pragmatism and this is why the Muslim world is seen as an utter joke. Having faith alone doesn't make you a good quality leader.

No need to fight between ourselves libbus need a boot.

 

[blain2]

Pakistan must allow everything west asks them to in order to keep haram money coming....this is what our bahadur Establishment has given Pakistan.

I understand the frustration but Pakistan cannot live without their patronage and trade regardless of how much your/our ego is hurt. So talk is cheap about establishment giving in to the west. Even IK et-al were customers of IMF so blaming "west" for our own self-created problems is not the solution.
Establishment accelerated the recourse to IMF/West. Even if they had not, any Pakistani government (including IK/PTI) would have arrived at the very same conclusion.

 

[VCheng]

I understand the frustration but Pakistan cannot live without their patronage and trade regardless of how much your/our ego is hurt. So talk is cheap about establishment giving in to the west. Even IK et-al were customers of IMF so blaming "west" for our own self-created problems is not the solution.
Establishment accelerated the recourse to IMF/West. Even if they had not, any Pakistani government (including IK/PTI) would have arrived at the very same conclusion.

You make a great point about the lack of any alternatives available to Pakistan other than the resources of the West. My criticisms of the military and its illegalities are well-known on PDF for over a decade, but even then, I cannot deny that fact that Pakistan has simply run out of options and therefore is left with only hard and harder choices, specially financially.

All the fools dreaming of past Islamic glories while enjoying life in the West, rife on PDF, are doing a great disservice to Pakistan by trying to present an alternative that simply does not exist except in their imaginations. One cannot run a country like Pakistan on mere imagination.

Somebody has to do what is needed based on realities. As much as I call out the military for its illegalities and excesses, I also openly recognize that it is the only entity keeping the country together.

As I have said many times, better to exist deeply flawed than not at all.

 

[blain2]

You make a great point about the lack of any alternatives available to Pakistan other than the resources of the West. My criticisms of the military and its illegalities are well-known on PDF for over a decade, but even then, I cannot deny that fact that Pakistan has simply run out of options and therefore is left with only hard and harder choices, specially financially.

All the fools dreaming of past Islamic glories while enjoying life in the West, rife on PDF, are doing a great disservice to Pakistan by trying to present an alternative that simply does not exist except in their imaginations. Once cannot run a country like Pakistan on mere imagination.

Somebody has to do what is needed based on realities. As much as I call out the military for its illegalities and excesses, I also openly recognize that it is the only entity keeping the country together.

As I have said many times, better to exist deeply flawed than not at all.

I agree. If anything IMF's "cruel" guidelines will teach us some fiscal discipline.

My only concern at this time is that "politics" are taking precedence over the well-being of the country. I.e. there is no time left but to get IMF engaged 100%. PDM are thinking about their political fortunes/misfortunes the same way PTI delayed engaging with the IMF on account of subsidies.

If Pakistan were to follow IMF's hard prescription, the economy may be able to survive. Unfortunately, political survival may be more important than the country's survival. The same case as 1971 when political expediency split the country into 2.

 

[VCheng]

I agree. If anything IMF's "cruel" guidelines will teach us some fiscal discipline.

My only concern at this time is that "politics" are taking precedence over the well-being of the country. I.e. there is no time left but to get IMF engaged 100%. PDM are thinking about their political fortunes/misfortunes the same way PTI delayed engaging with the IMF on account of subsidies.

If Pakistan were to follow IMF's hard prescription, the economy may be able to survive. Unfortunately, political survival may be more important than the country's survival. The same case as 1971 when political expediency split the country into 2.

Hence my clear observation that bears repeating: Somebody has to do what is needed to be done based on realities, and not political considerations, and we can all see who this somebody will be.