Why is Pakistan's missile program not as diverse?

[Taj_91]

As far as posters in IITs are concerned, they are in public domain. They can be photographed and re printed as one wishes.

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar,

speaking about nirbhay,it just came to my mind instantly- engine! now since pakistan has been producing baburs for quite some time now,how do they source their miniaturized gas turbine engines ?given the fact that there are no current gas turbine research projects going on in pakistan. here i would like to mention that over in bangalore there are two gas turbine projects going on concurrently-
(a) GTRE's
(b) HAL's.
GTRE's miniaturized GT belongs to 400kgf thrust of miniaturized turbofan engine and fair amount of trials have been conducted and research papers produced

Ive given a hint on what Babur is here
https://defence.pk/threads/military-research-in-pakistan-new-ideas-hampered-by-old-ways.143896

I was merely trying to discuss the aspect of "HOW" will certain technological constraints be achieved by Pakistan given the lack of research and industrial maturity.And future development prospects.!

Refer to the article I wrote much earlier, and the explanations on how "jugars" and "reverse engineering" are the core beliefs of the system.

 

[Taj_91]

Though these techniques (Frugal, reverse engineering) don't work for a system as complex as a modern missile. Some say that ISRO's MOM was a jugaad, but the ISRO scientists know it was not and its chief doesn't agree too:
How India Launched Its Mars Mission At Cut-Rate Costs - Forbes
The term Frugal engineering is often over rated, don't you think?

 

[kurup]

Why people are asking this question ,
I am absolutely in no position to identify whether classified info was posted,

When people ask him that, it indicates person asking it, is capable of understanding or holding such info s.

Which in turn is getting exposed...


@amardeep mishra

Posters from seminar in IIT s classified or in public domain?

The posters from seminar in IIT is in public domain .

These are the screen captures from a video .

It was discussed here ....... Stunning info about Indian's missile projects by Dr.Saraswat

 

[amardeep mishra]

Are you absolutely sure you do not disclose any classified information here

Are you bound OR not bound by any written undertakings not to divulge classified information

Hi,
Whatever i discuss here is based on already published research literature and some of my own engineering background.Normally i refer to-
1)DRDO newsletters
2)DRDO's tech focus magazine
3)DRDO's defence science journal- which is perhaps one of the best research journals in defence technology in asia(a lot of research papers from both indian and foreign authors gets published here)!
4)various IEEE research papers
5)and finally various academicians/research engineers like armstrong for adaptive control systems,scholnik and one more author whose name i am forgetting at the moment for radar systems,bellanis for antennae design are some of the books in a very long list

Ive given a hint on what Babur is here

hi oscar!
i read your article but that was posted by someone named "webmaster"...anyways,you did point to the fact that the engines are sourced from china however no specific technical information was given.
I guess using a turbofan engine is perhaps the reason why nirbhay has a significantly longer range(vis-a-vis babur that uses a turbojet) and can be extended upto 2000kms as rightly pointed out by some research engineers of ADE

 

[Gauss]

I always think that Pakistan has made inroads in many sections of missile technology including IRBMs, Ground & Air Launched Cruise Missiles and even MANPADS, then why it is still not possible for the Pak scientist n engineers to make Medium n Long range SAMs, Anti-Ship missiles, AAMs or finally ABM system?
Secondly how India succeded in making Long Range SAM (Akash) and Anti Ballistic Missile (ABM) System while India also lacks in Hi-tech electronic industry e.g. FAB Plant to make chips as well as technology for some MEMS (Micro Electro-Mechanical Sensors) which are a critical part of guidance systems in these types of missiles. Or India just procure these parts from Russia and assemble them in India?
If that is the case then why Pakistan not doing the same with Chinese assistance?
One more news I heard in past that Pakistan n China are stablishing an advanced Defence electronic R & D Centre in Pakistan.
Will it be helpful in developing these technologies as well as RADAR technology?

Please reply in detail.

Pakistan does not have an indigenous missile development program. Pakistani missiles are foreign missile adapted for local use.

Nsar is WS-2
Ghaznavi is M-11
Ghauri is Nodong 1
Shaheen is M-9
Babur is DH-10
Raad is MUPSOW

 

[Zarvan]

Not too much, at least not with such fervour.
A big issue has to do with the utter paranoia surrounding the system.. take this gentleman for instance.. you'd never think what he might have done that would have normally warranted a paper on the process.

http://www.case.edu.pk/Faculty/CV/Dr.NadeemEhsan.pdf

2000-todate: Extremely complex and demanding National Technological Project requiring State-ofthe-Art
technology, Air Weapons Complex and NESCOM

You can only wonder what exactly that was about. It will NEVER be declared, any research on it cannot go onto a paper because all data is "air gapped(no internet, wifi..no connection to the outside world)"

Here are the rest of the people, do you seriously think that these folks are unable to bring out papers?
.:: CASE: Center For Advanced Studies In Engineering ::.

In some cases they do, in other cases they just have to keep quiet.

I think we need to go for long range ICBMs and also work on Naval cruise missile and come up with it soon and we recently got 3 LY-80 batteries and I think reports that we plan to produce more in Pakistan are correct

 

[Agent_47]

At last a meaningful thread.
@amardeep mishra
Will there be a navy version of Aswani/arudhra radar?
Can we become independent in the radar front any time soon?

In some thread @sancho mentioned we can't even develop a credible pulse dopper radar for jaugar upgread ,and how are we suppose to field AESA for LCA? Comments?

Is there a smaller air launched nirbhay in pipeline?
Thank you

 

[Screambowl]

Only fools like DRDO want to do every thing from scratch and consequently fail in every thing. It is all about economies of scale and items that are not readily available off the shelf. It does not make sense to have every thing indigenous if the item is readily accessible, it is not prone to sanctions, there no need to create a local manufacturing base and it is cheaper to buy than creating from scratch. Also you will be surprised at the size and sophistication of Pakistani military-industrial complex.

ISRO has showed how to build a cryo motor from scratch.

 

[SipahSalar]

One of our "partners" is not far from becoming from partner to "adversary". Presler Amendment, sanctions? Thats whats coming after the conclusion of the Afghan war and after we are not needed.

I don't see them becoming an open adversary any time soon. I think we will continue to be in the current relation for quite some time due to the current situation of global affairs.

 

[The Deterrent]

Be frank with you, in last ten years Pakistan didnt find any major breakthrough, and again saying major, that change the whole missile program.

Like when the Agni-3 first tested in 2006, it still using the 90s tech. of Agni-1 and 2. But in 2008 there was major breakthrough in fuel propulsion and material science in DRDO.

And by 2011, actually DRDO able to bring down the weight of the Agni-3 by half, that was tremendous job. It increases the whole efficiency and reliability of the system. But I dont find anything like in Pak. The same tech. used in Agni-4.

Please try to understand,previously there was no need (and resources for) of a "breakthrough" to counter India on the nuclear front. The existing Shaheen series was as deadly as a would-be canisterzied, all-composite system. Even if in the near future Shaheen-III or an MIRVed system is introduced, it may well be with a truss-bar stage separator, simply because there is no immediate need to strive for ideal systems.

 

[jammersat]

Because pakistan has closer ties to china than Russia

 

[The Deterrent]

Hi,
Well, we were all arguing and presenting our views,a lot of pakistani members did suggest to that possibility,however none of them exactly dealt with the question of "HOW" will that be achieved?Since you happen to mention

(a) Composite upper stages, i would like to add that there are a lot more areas that needs composites like shroud,structural assembly ,composite rocket motors etc.Secondly does pakistans have the capability to manufacture maraging steel,titanium and various other critical alloys in the required quantities?and whether the metallurgical processes used are their own patented or licensed ones?A credible research literature to that effect would be highly appreciated

Your question of HOW can be answered by one word: "Jugaad", as @Oscar and @Hyperion have been saying.

Indeed all these areas requiring composites are being worked upon. Pakistan already manufacture maraging steel for the existing solid rocket motors. No patent, no license. Credit goes to the all-weather friend. We simply do not require research work carried out at our own soil.

(b)More efficient solid fuel having better geometry- Here i would like to know whether you were refering to "grain crystal size and itz properties" or the size of the engine?Either way i dont think it is possible to achieve mass fraction of lesser than 93% with solid fuels like hydroxyl terminated polybutadiene or even aluminium fused composite propellants.This minor research paper would shed some light on the mass fraction of various engines in operation around the world
Heavy Lift Launch Vehicles | Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses

Yes I'm referring to the grain's geometry. Any kind of breakthrough is not being achieved, these are supposed to be basic improvements on the existing systems.

(c)Miniaturized ReVs,Do you have proper research paper based on which you are making this claim?i am just a bit curious and would love to read your papers if you can share!
Thanks in advance!

I understand your fondness with research work, but I'm not sure why one needs to be referred to in this case. It is very simple, previously Pakistan's fission devices were fully uranium-implosion design based. Now plutonium is being introduced, which obviously reduces the device's size & weight while keeping the yield same (Pakistan is not looking towards increasing yields). Using a smaller device, a miniaturized RV can be manufactured.

@The Deterrent

THese are the pics i was refering to when i made my above observations.These pics are pretty recent from a defence research seminar organized at IIT B in collaboration with DRDO(DRDL/ASL to be precise).
You can clearly see the EXTENSIVE usage of composites being explored by DRDO in A-6 and the SLBM(a lot of these technologies have already been developed by DRDL ans ASL,for instance A-5 uses composite rocket motor in 1st,2nd stage and the production variants will have all the three rocket motors made up of composites) that not only reduces the overall weight but also increases the throw weight by a good margin
Not only that,there are NO EXTERNAL CONTROL SURFACES,instead itz all TVC!

I know, because I uploaded them here previously:
Stunning info about Indian's missile projects by Dr.Saraswat | Page 2

 

[kaku1]

Please try to understand,previously there was no need (and resources for) of a "breakthrough" to counter India on the nuclear front. The existing Shaheen series was as deadly as a would-be canisterzied, all-composite system. Even if in the near future Shaheen-III or an MIRVed system is introduced, it may well be with a truss-bar stage separator, simply because there is no immediate need to strive for ideal systems.

Lots of "IF". BTW, what would be the throw away weight ofShaheen-3.

 

[Hyperion]

Muck me!

ISRO has showed how to build a cryo motor from scratch.