Why is Pakistan's missile program not as diverse?

[kaku1]

Cold launch is used solely in SSBN's. DF31 is not cold launched, it's canister launched, just like Babur CM (don't know much about TCT-5)...... and btw, force distribution in a cold launch is not mitigated solely by 'stronger alloys', there are hundred different ways to skin this particular cat. Furthermore, don't you worry about Babur SLCM, the solutions are already there and they are innovative indeed.

See this video from 2:00, you will know how the D31 is cold launch. And yes TFT-5 is also cold launch.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Cold launch is used solely in SSBN's. DF31 is not cold launched

@Hyperion
That is a WRONG proposition,for there are a variety of land based ICBMs and Cruise missile being launched using cold launch philosophy.Even the latest type-052D of china and project-15A of india features cold launch VLS. Russian Kh-51 cruise missile is also launched in cold launch mode.
And as far as maintaining uniform(constant) heat gradient all along the surface of the metal is concerned, i gave the example of super alloy(offcourse there'd be other methods as well) because thats what i had read in one of the research publications of DRDL about TCT-5- they had used marging steel cannister with certain other unknown alloys.I would be glad if you can elaborate using heat distribution equations and other stuff if you know.
Thanks in advance

 

[SQ8]

Pakistan is yet to master it .

No need to spend million on it. Will just get the ideas from China for a few hundred thousand.. adapt it, improve it.. and use it.
Problem solved.

 

[Bratva]

Believe me that is not the way research is conducted! anyhow,i am a man of proof and experimentation and hence go by the words of published research

Instead of believing you, Ever heard of Classified research? NSA does it, They don't let their employs publish their research. I was reading an interview of a CTO. Zulfikar Rehman (doctoral student of ron RIVEST). He said he denied NSA job offer because they wouldn't let him publish his work

Ron Rivest - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Q: With your math, computer and language background, you sound like a prime candidate for a CIA recruiter.

A: Right after the movie "Good Will Hunting" came out (including a scene of math whiz Matt Damon talking to a NSA recruiter), I met with the main recruiter for the NSA at MIT. He talked about how his role as an NSA recruiter was portrayed in the film. I was interested in the math the NSA had that no one knew anything about. But you were not allowed to talk about what you did. The NSA did send me the background check package, but I never filled it out.

Q&A: Elastica CTO Zulfikar Ramzan, on Heartbleed and online security - San Jose Mercury News

 

[amardeep mishra]

Instead of believing you, Ever heard of Classified research? NSA does it, They don't let their employs publish their research. I was reading an interview of a CTO. Zulfikar Rehman (doctoral student of ron RIVEST). He said he denied NSA job offer because they wouldn't let him publish his work

Ever heard of IEEE? how about i show you a plethora of indian and chinese research papers on ECCM,phased array architecture?
Of course i agree,there are certain research that are NOT published by the govt but a vast majority does get through "veil of secrecy" and published in reputed journals.What i was alluding to when i wrote my comments above was- the "obvious lack" of research papers and patents from pakistani side.I dont think india or for that matter even china are any less paranoid or secretive about their research yet these countries do let out a great deal of research papers in IEEE or other reputed journals.Now whats special with pakistan when other countries publish their work(in similar streams of radars,metallurgy,composite manufacturing etc)?.
Why do you think LRDE filed the patent for their 8-channel TRMM design?Why do you think China files patent INSANELY and a lot of them are actually from their aerospace sector!?- it is to protect it from theft and epsionage(so that legal actions can be taken should there be a breach of IPR)

Btw,i have got my seniors and a couple of my batch mates at Cornell doing there masters in control systems(systems engineering)

 

[kurup]

See this video from 2:00, you will know how the D31 is cold launch. And yes TFT-5 is also cold launch.

From 1:30 to 3:00 , the missiles shown are Russian BMs ..... not Chinese D31

 

[The Deterrent]

@fatman17

In the light of modern research especially international trend(i am talking about the IIT bombay seminar pics that i posted),a missile with 4-10 MIRVs would require atleast 2-3 tonnes of throw weight.Now the natural question that comes up is- how would pakistan increase the throw weight capacity of their missile? Consideration should be given to various other factors like the absence of a pakistani program to design a cryogenic engine(either STAGED COMBUSTION CYCLE or GAS GENERATOR CYCLE), or industrial maturity of pakistan in the field of composites (composite motor,shroud,and various other structural assembly)- now these are some of the factors that might help increase the throw weight of pakistani missiles
Another aspect of the ICBM is it's survivability(here i am talking about itz mobility and reaction time and not itz capability to overcome potential ABMs)- In that reagrds too,pakistani strategic missiles show a number of complications.some of them are-
1)None of them have been cannisterized(like the way india is cannisterizing A-4,A-5 and A-6 AND chinese DF-31).A cannisterized system drastically reduces the reaction time(and increases the shelf life) of missiles,for instance the reaction time of un-cannisterized agni-5 is close to 30mins whereas the same missile in a TCT-5 cannisterized launcher can be fired in less than 10mins(these figures again were given by none other the DG DRDO)!

2)pakistani strategic missiles still feature external control surfaces- fins,- this would pose a challenge while designing a canister for them(if at all they have such plan)

3)Again we are back to our initial argument i.e pakistani metallurgical research and itz industrial maturity to design a canisterized launching system on a high mobility truck

Regarding MIRVs, what you referred to were DRDO's plans for 4-6 ~500kg ReVs of up to 200kt each.
For Pakistan, it is not necessary to increase the throw weight up to more than 2000 kgs, reason being that we are not aiming for larger yield thermonuclear devices, so we can design ReVs weighing lower than 500kg and use a minimum of 3 aboard an IRBM. Nevertheless, the throw-weight of any future system having MIRV capability needs to be higher than the present one.

Regarding how the throw-weight can be increased, Pakistan might introduce composite upper stages, more efficient solid fuel having better geometry and miniaturized fission devices with lower ReV masses.

Regarding survivability and launch preparedness, Pakistani establishment considers the present systems with all-terrain TELs as survivable enough. Similarly, the launch preparation time is short enough to meet current needs.
There is no incentive (nor the means) to strive for ideal capabilities.

 

[kaku1]

Regarding MIRVs, what you referred to were DRDO's plans for 4-6 ~500kg ReVs of up to 200kt each.
For Pakistan, it is not necessary to increase the throw weight up to more than 2000 kgs, reason being that we are not aiming for larger yield thermonuclear devices, so we can design ReVs weighing lower than 500kg and use a minimum of 3 aboard an IRBM. Nevertheless, the throw-weight of any future system having MIRV capability needs to be higher than the present one.

Regarding how the throw-weight can be increased, Pakistan might introduce composite upper stages, more efficient solid fuel having better geometry and miniaturized fission devices with lower ReV masses.

Regarding survivability and launch preparedness, Pakistani establishment considers the present systems with all-terrain TELs as survivable enough. Similarly, the launch preparation time is short enough to meet current needs.
There is no incentive (nor the means) to strive for ideal capabilities.

Be frank with you, in last ten years Pakistan didnt find any major breakthrough, and again saying major, that change the whole missile program.

Like when the Agni-3 first tested in 2006, it still using the 90s tech. of Agni-1 and 2. But in 2008 there was major breakthrough in fuel propulsion and material science in DRDO.

And by 2011, actually DRDO able to bring down the weight of the Agni-3 by half, that was tremendous job. It increases the whole efficiency and reliability of the system. But I dont find anything like in Pak. The same tech. used in Agni-4.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Regarding how the throw-weight can be increased, Pakistan might introduce composite upper stages, more efficient solid fuel having better geometry and miniaturized fission devices with lower ReV masses.

Hi,
Well, we were all arguing and presenting our views,a lot of pakistani members did suggest to that possibility,however none of them exactly dealt with the question of "HOW" will that be achieved?Since you happen to mention

(a) Composite upper stages, i would like to add that there are a lot more areas that needs composites like shroud,structural assembly ,composite rocket motors etc.Secondly does pakistans have the capability to manufacture maraging steel,titanium and various other critical alloys in the required quantities?and whether the metallurgical processes used are their own patented or licensed ones?A credible research literature to that effect would be highly appreciated

(b)More efficient solid fuel having better geometry- Here i would like to know whether you were refering to "grain crystal size and itz properties" or the size of the engine?Either way i dont think it is possible to achieve mass fraction of lesser than 93% with solid fuels like hydroxyl terminated polybutadiene or even aluminium fused composite propellants.This minor research paper would shed some light on the mass fraction of various engines in operation around the world
Heavy Lift Launch Vehicles | Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses

(c)Miniaturized ReVs,Do you have proper research paper based on which you are making this claim?i am just a bit curious and would love to read your papers if you can share!
Thanks in advance!

 

[amardeep mishra]

@The Deterrent

THese are the pics i was refering to when i made my above observations.These pics are pretty recent from a defence research seminar organized at IIT B in collaboration with DRDO(DRDL/ASL to be precise).
You can clearly see the EXTENSIVE usage of composites being explored by DRDO in A-6 and the SLBM(a lot of these technologies have already been developed by DRDL ans ASL,for instance A-5 uses composite rocket motor in 1st,2nd stage and the production variants will have all the three rocket motors made up of composites) that not only reduces the overall weight but also increases the throw weight by a good margin
Not only that,there are NO EXTERNAL CONTROL SURFACES,instead itz all TVC!

 

[SQ8]

Not only that,there are NO EXTERNAL CONTROL SURFACES,instead itz all TVC!

Regarding TVC, yours truly has someone in the program whose team was working on the modifications to guidance on an existing and future system to accommodate for TVC(and its more sensitive deflection requirements) . I wont comment on what system since I dont know, but I can recall some of the lab equipment because it was rather fun to play with. One of the kits was a Gyro and accel chip but with different enclosures for it. One was a ball which we "tested" by playing impromptu cricket in the office with and it would plot shifts in rather "over accurate" measurements. The fact that it could take that punishment was testament to its Mil Spec nature.

As I explained earlier, there is too much speculation on Pakistan's R&D to give any accurate picture... and Ill leave you with a question..

Would it EVER be in any Indian project.. say the Nirbhay..that the dev code for its initial guidance algo sits on a hard-drive outside the premises.. say next to personal pictures and torrented movies?

 

[sathya]

Would it EVER be in any Indian project.. say the Nirbhay..that the dev code for its initial guidance algo sits on a hard-drive outside the premises.. say next to personal pictures and torrented movies?

Which one ?

India or Pakistan ?

 

[SQ8]

Which one ?

India or Pakistan ?

In India?

 

[sathya]

In India?

There were some reports sensitive materials or documents found casually or computers getting stolen with documents...

From time to time such reports appear..

 

[Judge]

Would it EVER be in any Indian project.. say the Nirbhay..that the dev code for its initial guidance algo sits on a hard-drive outside the premises.. say next to personal pictures and torrented movies?

It should not, but unfortunately it has.