Why Indian identity would collapse without the existence of Pakistan

[scorpionx]

Essence of a fairly OK article got completely ruined by an equally nonsensical heading. Indian national identity was never forged on the basis of creation of Pakistan. On the contrary, the genesis of this very identity was deeply forged in the late 19th century on the founding principles of egalitarianism and democratic liberalism, an essential outcome of American and French revolution.

India suffered (in many cases still struggling) a numerous problems like right wing ultra nationalist chauvinism, militant leftism, secession movements in Kashmir, Punjab and NE states, inexplicable poverty, riots and even constitutional crisis. Had it not been this founding principles laid by India's leading political leaders like Gandhi, Nehru and Patel, nourished by a number of their political successors, a more or less unbiased judiciary and administrative mechanism the prediction of so many foreign political observers, sociologists, journalists as well as Indian elites would have been proven true.

Despite successive wars with Pakistan, not a single national election was fought on the basis of hatred against Pakistan, corruption, development and good governance always dominating the election manifestos and banners. So, the author should have been little more careful in selecting his article's title which stole everything from the bottom of it.

 

[KN-1]

lol @ your logic.. India existed even before Pakistan was created. has own identity even in stone ages.

Then change ur name to ganga land.. why using name of Indus? Sindhu? Hindu?

Indian civilization is one of the oldest in the world.
10 oldest Ancient civilizations ever existed

I haven't found any ganga valley civilization in this article...

You just googled a text and came up with the answer.

Cradle of civilization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And FYI, Indian culture is 7500 BC older and you are part of it.

Wrong, culture of Indus is 9000 years old and have nothing to do with ganga valley.. stop bullshit propaganda..

 

[Tshering22]

I was expecting much more deeper content than mere discussion with an Indian journalist being the stage for this article. What exactly is he trying to say citing Guha and a couple of socialist era historians who have limited on-the-field understanding and whose intellect is shaped mostly through discussions in air conditioned halls patronized by one elite political family?

Mr. Haroon, you will need more than just one trip to understand India.

It was appreciable of you to convey the similarities of our countries and how we are both relatable to each other. But you must also understand how different and in how many ways, we are at the same time which is what differentiates us.

Oh and please think beyond the religious differences and language differences.

The key point I am discussing here is the approach towards life in the two different countries.

That is what makes the two of us worlds apart.

With due respect.

 

[Indiran Chandiran]

I was expecting much more deeper content than mere discussion with an Indian journalist being the stage for this article. What exactly is he trying to say citing Guha and a couple of socialist era historians who have limited on-the-field understanding and whose intellect is shaped mostly through discussions in air conditioned halls patronized by one elite political family?

Mr. Haroon, you will need more than just one trip to understand India.

It was appreciable of you to convey the similarities of our countries and how we are both relatable to each other. But you must also understand how different and in how many ways, we are at the same time which is what differentiates us.

Oh and please think beyond the religious differences and language differences.

The key point I am discussing here is the approach towards life in the two different countries.

That is what makes the two of us worlds apart.

With due respect.

The author - Haroon Rashid has just had a book entitled In Search Of SHIVA - A Study Of Folk Religious Practises in Pakistan , published in Dec 2015.

The irony is that he depicts a syncretic Muslim faith being practised in rural Pakistani Punjab , complete with praying at the mausoleums of Sufi Pirs, offering phalli ( phallus likeness made of wood & in some cases of marble too ) to a particular Sufi Shrine by childless women ,expecting to conceive, worshipping trees, etc .harkening back to practises which pre dates not only the arrival of Islam in what is today's Pakistan but also Islam itself going back as far as the IVC.

He also contrasts this with the ever growing network of Wahabbi inspired seminaries best exemplified by organizations like the Ahl e Hadees , LeT - also the Tableeghi Jamaat.

Let & Ahl e Hadees have made rapid inroads into rural Punjab ( they enjoy massive support in urban Punjab ) with their brand of philanthropy - free medical camps , distribution of free food grains to the extremely poor, financial support to widows & their off spring , etc . All this courtesy the Saudi govt & wealthy individuals from the M.E eager to spread their brand of Islam in the sub continent .

While this has been going on since the past 5 decades , Wahabbi inspired networks received a shot in the arm with the taking of power by Zia ul Haq & the Afghan war waged during the Soviet occupation.
According to the author ,these "puritan " organizations are now threatening those Muslims who follow these syncretic practises unique to S.Asia , denouncing them as Shirk ( blasphemy ) & Bidda ( innovation ) , often violently opposing these groups receiving state support drawn usually from urban Punjabis staffing various Federal & state level offices.

Haroon Rashid piles it on , citing instances of graffiti in these rural areas denouncing India , Israel & the US , urging its readers to prepare for Jihad & volunteer their services ( previously this was restricted to urban & semi urban areas of Pakistan ) wondering how does such hatred find justification especially since most of the followers of LeT may not even have spoken to a Hindu or a Jew or a US citizen in real life , leave aside coming across one .

That's not all .While teaching a group of school children a class of history in Lahore , he cites instances of blind hatred towards the US , Hindus & Jews , remarking on the conditioning of thoughts that their syllabi has had on them .


I've just completed 60 odd pages of the 250 pages book & nearly fell out of my chair at these revelations.

While I often took whatever Indian & the western media wrote about the radicalization of Pak with a pinch of salt , thinking they were sensationalizing & generalising the problem of fundamentalism in Pak civil society this book has come as an eye opener.

The author himself has no personal motive - the only one being his interest in history & the folk traditions & practises & their impact on Islam in Pakistan .

I'm waiting with bated breath to read the reactions of the Pakistanis to this book.

If this book is any indication , the worse is yet to come as far as Pakistan is concerned & unfortunately as far as India is concerned too.

 

[Tshering22]

The author - Haroon Rashid has just had a book entitled In Search Of SHIVA - A Study Of Folk Religious Practises in Pakistan , published in Dec 2015.

The irony is that he depicts a syncretic Muslim faith being practised in rural Pakistani Punjab , complete with praying at the mausoleums of Sufi Pirs, offering phalli ( phallus likeness made of wood & in some cases of marble too ) to a particular Sufi Shrine by childless women ,expecting to conceive, worshipping trees, etc .harkening back to practises which pre dates not only the arrival of Islam in what is today's Pakistan but also Islam itself going back as far as the IVC.

He also contrasts this with the ever growing network of Wahabbi inspired seminaries best exemplified by organizations like the Ahl e Hadees , LeT - also the Tableeghi Jamaat.

Let & Ahl e Hadees have made rapid inroads into rural Punjab ( they enjoy massive support in urban Punjab ) with their brand of philanthropy - free medical camps , distribution of free food grains to the extremely poor, financial support to widows & their off spring , etc . All this courtesy the Saudi govt & wealthy individuals from the M.E eager to spread their brand of Islam in the sub continent .

While this has been going on since the past 5 decades , Wahabbi inspired networks received a shot in the arm with the taking of power by Zia ul Haq & the Afghan war waged during the Soviet occupation.
According to the author ,these "puritan " organizations are now threatening those Muslims who follow these syncretic practises unique to S.Asia , denouncing them as Shirk ( blasphemy ) & Bidda ( innovation ) , often violently opposing these groups receiving state support drawn usually from urban Punjabis staffing various Federal & state level offices.

Haroon Rashid piles it on , citing instances of graffiti in these rural areas denouncing India , Israel & the US , urging its readers to prepare for Jihad & volunteer their services ( previously this was restricted to urban & semi urban areas of Pakistan ) wondering how does such hatred find justification especially since most of the followers of LeT may not even have spoken to a Hindu or a Jew or a US citizen in real life , leave aside coming across one .

That's not all .While teaching a group of school children a class of history in Lahore , he cites instances of blind hatred towards the US , Hindus & Jews , remarking on the conditioning of thoughts that their syllabi has had on them .


I've just completed 60 odd pages of the 250 pages book & nearly fell out of my chair at these revelations.

While I often took whatever Indian & the western media wrote about the radicalization of Pak with a pinch of salt , thinking they were sensationalizing & generalising the problem of fundamentalism in Pak civil society this book has come as an eye opener.

The author himself has no personal motive - the only one being his interest in history & the folk traditions & practises & their impact on Islam in Pakistan .

I'm waiting with bated breath to read the reactions of the Pakistanis to this book.

If this book is any indication , the worse is yet to come as far as Pakistan is concerned & unfortunately as far as India is concerned too.

It is a battle of ego and the inner desire to find and conform to their real self that is going on there. Sad situation.

 

[Indiran Chandiran]

It is a battle of ego and the inner desire to find and conform to their real self that is going on there. Sad situation.

It's more than that .It's a battle for the soul of Pakistan .While " deep state " may think they've the situation under control , due to the various anti terrorism measures they've adopted , I don't think this problem is going to be solved in a hurry.

To cut a long story short , I'm reminded of the Puranic story of the asura Raktabeej who wanted immortality after terrible penances but was told it wasn't possible .To mollify him , he was granted something next to immortality .He was granted a boon that for every drop of his blood which was spilt & reached the earth a thousand Raktabeejas would replace him.

If the Pak Army thinks they've got the better of the TTP , they're sadly mistaken .For every one militant killed , 10 others will be inspired to take their place . Right now , these groups are lying low.Besides the area - FATA where this civil war Zarb e Azb is being waged has always been a restive place with a rebellious population .

 

[Tshering22]

It's more than that .It's a battle for the soul of Pakistan .While " deep state " may think they've the situation under control , due to the various anti terrorism measures they've adopted , I don't think this problem is going to be solved in a hurry.

To cut a long story short , I'm reminded of the Puranic story of the asura Raktabeej who wanted immortality after terrible penances but was told it wasn't possible .To mollify him , he was granted something next to immortality .He was granted a boon that for every drop of his blood which was spilt & reached the earth a thousand Raktabeejas would replace him.

If the Pak Army thinks they've got the better of the TTP , they're sadly mistaken .For every one militant killed , 10 others will be inspired to take their place . Right now , these groups are lying low.Besides the area - FATA where this civil war Zarb e Azb is being waged has always been a restive place with a rebellious population .

They have many more days ahead of trouble and sadness until they realise their mistake.

I feel pained for our dear neighbours that such is their action and their cycle of actions that they continue to repeat the same thing and suffer the same negative results repeatedly.

 

[Indiran Chandiran]

They have many more days ahead of trouble and sadness until they realise their mistake.

I feel pained for our dear neighbours that such is their action and their cycle of actions that they continue to repeat the same thing and suffer the same negative results repeatedly.

Frankly , I'm least bothered about what they endure.They've sowed the wind , they'd reap the whirlwind. It's karma.

But its the fallout on India that I'm more concerned about.The generals may enjoy their whisky & play with their pet dogs.but what about the majors & the captains , not to mention the men they command ? What ,if one fine day they decide that they can't fight Muslims anymore ? What if they decide that they ought to join their brothers in arms ? What if these militants & the lower brass of the army decide to take on the state of Pakistan ?

The generals may well decide to turn back to that old bogeyman - India .What if they turn this lot loose on India ? Or worse , as a diversion plan another misadventure like Kargil ? After all , with every successful terrorist strike , the mood in India hardens & the respect that any lawfully elected govt enjoys gets eroded when they look bemused & paralysed when if comes to retaliatory measures.

There may come a time , when we will just not be able to take this kind of punishment anymore & decide it's payback time .I fear such a day of reckoning not too far off in the future . I'm not being alarmist in the least when I make this statement .Events unfolding with a sickening predictability, as we have seen in the past 2 decades , seems to bear me out.

 

[MadDog]

If Hindu is religion which existed on Sindhu river then Pakistani people are actually Hindus and you are the one actually real victims of identity crisis.

See when the division happened, Indians got India and Muslims got Pakistan. So Pakistan as a country was built on religion basis not the cultural, you still have majority of people who thinks that Pakistanis are actually Arabs, just because they don't want to be associated with Hindu culture.

But reality is very simple, that people of Pakistan are actually native Hindus but converted to Islam.

People if the land of Indus were hindus & bhuddists (Gandhara). People of Europe also followed pagan religions before becoming christians, should they return to old religions. People of south east asia werent bhuddists before Bhudda came. Askanazi jews werent jews originally. Religions changed throughout human period. You need to realize this basic fact. Do you think those who were hindus were hindus since humanity started ?
Pakistan is an acronym used in 1933 for Punjab , Afghania (old name of KPK), Kashmir, Sindh, baluchisTAN. It was created to protect political rights of muslims as religious tensions intensified. Railway stations used to sell hindu pani or muslim pani, this was the level of hatred. btw Division of Punjab happened not of india, our punjabis are simmilar to ur punjabis, rest are different. Jinnah never wanted this division of Punjab it were your congress leaders like sardar valabhai patel who called for it

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

If Hindu is religion which existed on Sindhu river then Pakistani people are actually Hindus and you are the one actually real victims of identity crisis.

See when the division happened, Indians got India and Muslims got Pakistan. So Pakistan as a country was built on religion basis not the cultural, you still have majority of people who thinks that Pakistanis are actually Arabs, just because they don't want to be associated with Hindu culture.

But reality is very simple, that people of Pakistan are actually native Hindus but converted to Islam.

There is no 'identity' crisis, if you ask a Pakistani what his specific ethnicity is, he will either say Baloch, Sindhi, Punjabi, Pathan, Kashmiri, Muhajir or the hundreds of other ethnicities of Pakistan - each having its proud history and strong culture.

Pakistan and India were never 'united' only under the British and Mughal era, which lasted briefly. Pakistani civilization mostly existed on the Indus river within modern day Pakistani borders. You know and we know, that despite we have some similarities we have different culture, ethnicity, behavior, and so much more.
Egypt and Sudan were once one 'country', does that mean they are ethnically the same? Jaimaicans and Canadians were once apart of the British Empire - does that mean they are ethnically the same?

No one here claims they are Arabs expect the Muhajir and some coastal peoples.

Also, most people in modern day Pakistan; more people followed Animism, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism and tribal religions than Hinduism. Arabs and Europeans once followed paganism, it does not mean they are related.
Why do you guys boast about Hindus converting to Islam; if I was Hindu - i'd be ashamed.

 

[Abba_Dabba_Jabba]

People if the land of Indus were hindus & bhuddists (Gandhara). People of Europe also followed pagan religions before becoming christians, should they return to old religions. People of south east asia werent bhuddists before Bhudda came. Askanazi jews werent jews originally. Religions changed throughout human period. You need to realize this basic fact. Do you think those who were hindus were hindus since humanity started ?
Pakistan is an acronym used in 1933 for Punjab , Afghania (old name of KPK), Kashmir, Sindh, baluchisTAN. It was created to protect political rights of muslims as religious tensions intensified. Railway stations used to sell hindu pani or muslim pani, this was the level of hatred. btw Division of Punjab happened not of india, our punjabis are simmilar to ur punjabis, rest are different. Jinnah never wanted this division of Punjab it were your congress leaders like sardar valabhai patel who called for it

Sir, kindly see the topic of discussion and my reply then try to quote me. The question asked here was about identity crisis, and there is one country called "Pakistan" which is currently suffering from identity crisis.

Sir people of Pakistan has simply no idea where they belong, the country was built on religion not culture that is one of the reason Pakistan lost it's native culture or at least in the eyes of the world it is now seen as just another muslim nation. Whereas, India was built by many kingdoms(states) and it has somehow preserved it's culture and it is not suffering from identity crisis.

That was all I was saying, and somehow you brought religion into it. Listen once again, if you call yourself "Hindu" then you are not changing your religion but you are following a culture, it's the culture of people who live in India-Pakistan-Bangladesh.

 

[Dragon4]

if I was Hindu - i'd be ashamed.

And why?

 

[Abba_Dabba_Jabba]

There is no 'identity' crisis, if you ask a Pakistani what his specific ethnicity is, he will either say Baloch, Sindhi, Punjabi, Pathan, Kashmiri, Muhajir or the hundreds of other ethnicities of Pakistan - each having its proud history and strong culture.

Pakistan and India were never 'united' only under the British and Mughal era, which lasted briefly. Pakistani civilization mostly existed on the Indus river within modern day Pakistani borders. You know and we know, that despite we have some similarities we have different culture, ethnicity, behavior, and so much more.
Egypt and Sudan were once one 'country', does that mean they are ethnically the same? Jaimaicans and Canadians were once apart of the British Empire - does that mean they are ethnically the same?

No one here claims they are Arabs expect the Muhajir and some coastal peoples.

Also, most people in modern day Pakistan; more people followed Animism, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism and tribal religions than Hinduism. Arabs and Europeans once followed paganism, it does not mean they are related.
Why do you guys boast about Hindus converting to Islam; if I was Hindu - i'd be ashamed.

Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Please read carefully before quoting me.

And yes sir, you would be ashamed of being Hindu because thats what you have been taught, but ask some prominent Pakistani Liberal he will tell you what you actually are culturally.

 

[KN-1]

Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Please read carefully before quoting me.

And yes sir, you would be ashamed of being Hindu because thats what you have been taught, but ask some prominent Pakistani Liberal he will tell you what you actually are culturally.

But u are not culturally Hindu, Hindu was an ancient nation of present day Pakistan. so why u are getting jealous if someone from land of sindhu, hindu, indus reject outdated culture, the culture which has bring practice of, satti, satta watta, wani, caste system and many more satanic practices.

We should keep good practices of hindu culture which are not against our faith and modren times though.

 

[Abba_Dabba_Jabba]

But u are not culturally Hindu, Hindu was an ancient nation of present day Pakistan. so why u are getting jealous if someone from land of sindhu, hindu, indus reject outdated culture, the culture which has bring practice of, satti, satta watta, wani, caste system and many more satanic practices.

We should keep good practices of hindu culture which are not against our faith and modren times though.

File:Hindu percent 1909.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sati practice was wrong and it is now a criminal offence under Indian constitution and you simply have no idea about caste system so do research about how it changed with the time and how the people started discrimination with low cast people. Also how the current reservation system is resulting into reverse discrimination in the society.