Why India and Pakistan will keep growing apart

[takeiteasy]

Of course Indians don't accept 2NT. Because it is against our national fabric and has been patently proved wrong. However they accept the fact that Pakistan is a separate state. If you came across some Indian who wants to join India and Pakistan, you are very lucky.


Well, Indians and Pakistanis are in fact same people. You may shut your eyes and ears for the fact. But truth still stares at you in the face. And you complain about bombardment. Just drawing a line on a map does not overnight change people on both sides of it. It takes centuries for the cultures to branch away.

I explained above about the rationale behind what Indians think. They don't think Pakistan's creation was legitimate. But they have come used to the fact of it. At least, today after 2008 since Pakistan has been rocked by extremist violence, any Indian who dreamed of a single country(whatever frame of mind he has: saffronist, nostalgic), now corrected his/her opinion. They actually think it was good riddance.

how do you conclude this? this looks to me, you are desperate. we can claim bangladesh,nepal as "same people" not pakistan if you understand genetics and history. their culture has a large part common to persians. what does a kannadiga or marathi have common with a afghan(pathan)?

 

[angeldust]

I certainly doubt that.. your membership here is a testament to that being incorrect.
Otherwise anything Pakistani, news or opinions.. on any matter should not have invited any "Damns"..
But they sure do.. with varying levels of sanity...cynicism.. and bitter hatred that vary across the spectrum of Indian members

You misunderstand. We love being here. We really do.

We are just not interested in being convinced about how good or moderate or forward looking you really are.

We've seen enough to know the truth.

And we are here to let you know that we know. And we are watching. And we are waiting.

Don't slip up.

 

[PakShah]

ur dumb. pak are not closer with afghani. afghanis are arabs. they are spreading terrorism in our country.

HAHAHA, Perhaps its an Indian coward pretending to be a Pakistani!

Every Pakistani knows that Afghanistanis are not Arabs!!!

Afghanistanis have Pathans, Farsiwans, Uzbeks, Turkmen, and Hazaras.

 

[MadDog]

You people are going nuts over here..no two countries on the face of earth have exactly simmilar genetics.
Ethnic Punjabis of Pakistan and Ethnic kashmiris of Pakistan are genetically closer ( not same..i will explain how) to ethnic Punjabis (2 % of Indian population) and Kashmiris in India (probably less than 1 %). Since 70 years of independence, one would be a big fool to think, that Punjabi has married a Punabi and Kashmiri has married a Kashmiri. Come to Lahore where i am from and you would know, same case is probably for India, there have been intermarriages with other ethnicities...so no one ethnicity is same...i have so many examples of Punjabi-kashmiris, Punjabi-Pushtuns in my family...so please.

Once i was sitting with a Iraqi friend of mine, he started pointing out that in terms of looks North Koreans look different from South Koreans, i couldnt understand it. Then he explained the same concept, intermarriages...since partition there has been no cultural interaction, the people to people contact has been minimum...so obviously Punjabis of India would inter-marry with Indians, and those in Pak would intermarry with Pakistanis...thats where the difference comes..dont wanna believe it...you are more than welcome !!!

Indians are not even same people themselves, ...only the ones in North-west have Caucasoid skull structure and the rest in the south, east, north east have Australoid skull structures...let alone being the same ethnicity...then how the hell is pak simmilar to them...so please stop this foolish thread.

 

[sarthak]

Don't be rediculous! No Pakistanis says we are Arabs. we are the inheritors of the Indus River Valley civilization and we have more in common with Afghanistan!


Check out this picture:

Liaquat Ali Khan and Jinnah with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and Hassan Al Banna in Cairo

We should remove all the Indianess! Now we are closer the Afghanistanis

What about the Durrani's Empire

See what Pakistan intellectual Ahmed Hasan Dani has said:

From his extensive fieldwork and research experience, Dani refuted any influence of South Indian culture on the Indus Valley Civilization.[5] Using a geographic perspective of the socio-political systems and cultural distribution of the Indus Basin and surrounding hinterland, he observed that the Indo-Gangetic Plain did not play any significant role in the development of Indus Valley culture.[8] Nor was there any invasion from the seaside during the Bronze Age, although the coastline facilitated maritime trade. The major influence, according to Dani, came from Central Asia in the west. He asserted that the hilly western borderland that appears as a boundary to the external eye is actually a network of hill plateaus where the local people have always moved freely. He therefore argued that the cultural history of Pakistan is more closely related to Central Asia through Buddhist, Persian and later Sufism influences.[1] He strived to revive this relationship by promoting organizations such as Pak-Central Asia Friendship Association.

Ahmad Hasan Dani - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The indus valley civilisation was wiped out thousands of years ago. By wiped out , I mean gone , as if it never even existed. , you are neither their descendent , nor did you inherit any culture from them , because they all died . Was that hard to understand?

 

[MadDog]

Ahmed Hassan Dani learnt Sanskrit before independence in Indian university Banaras, in this show he tells how the other students and teachers used to treat him just cuz he was a Muslim and later on he wasn't even allowed to teach as a teacher just because he was a Muslim. Today the descendants of the same racist ancestors are telling us that they are similar to Pak...it should be noted as the biggest joke of the millennium.

I hope people who claim to be similar to us watch it .

Pakistan's ancient Civilizations are Mehrghar, Gandhara and Indus valley civilizations. While Indian culture mostly has developed in the Indo gangetic plain.

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

Stop bringing partition topic up again and again, you are happy with India and we are happy with Pakistan, end of the story and discussion

Yes we know you are happy with your country, but we are not happy, as some muslims still in India from the partition periods and still need to goto PAK as now PAK is not ready to accept them ..... but when you have shed crocodile tears from Indian muslims , no one can beat.

 

[INDIC]

You people are going nuts over here..no two countries on the face of earth have exactly simmilar genetics.
Ethnic Punjabis of Pakistan and Ethnic kashmiris of Pakistan are genetically closer ( not same..i will explain how) to ethnic Punjabis (2 % of Indian population) and Kashmiris in India (probably less than 1 %). Since 70 years of independence, one would be a big fool to think, that Punjabi has married a Punabi and Kashmiri has married a Kashmiri. Come to Lahore where i am from and you would know, same case is probably for India, there have been intermarriages with other ethnicities...so no one ethnicity is same...i have so many examples of Punjabi-kashmiris, Punjabi-Pushtuns in my family...so please.

Once i was sitting with a Iraqi friend of mine, he started pointing out that in terms of looks North Koreans look different from South Koreans, i couldnt understand it. Then he explained the same concept, intermarriages...since partition there has been no cultural interaction, the people to people contact has been minimum...so obviously Punjabis of India would inter-marry with Indians, and those in Pak would intermarry with Pakistanis...thats where the difference comes..dont wanna believe it...you are more than welcome !!!

Indians are not even same people themselves, ...only the ones in North-west have Caucasoid skull structure and the rest in the south, east, north east have Australoid skull structures...let alone being the same ethnicity...then how the hell is pak simmilar to them...so please stop this foolish thread.

I can see the Caucasian Pakistanis not similar to any Indian but look like central Asians.

 

[Ticker]

Yes we know you are happy with your country, but we are not happy, as some muslims still in India from the partition periods and still need to goto PAK as now PAK is not ready to accept them ..... but when you have shed crocodile tears from Indian muslims , no one can beat.

Pakistan was created in the Muslim majority areas and not for all Muslims of India. Those Muslims who wanted to voluntarily come to Pakistan from any other place in India were welcomed.

You can create your Hindu Rashtra from within what remains India and those present in India, Muslims, Christians, SCs and STs and those you call Bangladeshi illegals. I don't know what proof do you have besides inventing this and that and blame a set of Muslim people you hate, as illegal entrants.

It indeed is a shame that the whole Hindu India goes berserk after a people who live in India and tell them to get out of India, because the diversity they seek unity in, is the diversity that exists only in Hindu religion.

 

[Riyadh Haque]

.......The number of Indians who have left India for earning money in foreign countries probably equals the total population of Pakistan.......

BRAIN DRAIN- Countries List by Tertiary-Educated Emigration

Pakistani Diaspora is the World's 7th Largest

 

[Riyadh Haque]

Pakistan was created in the Muslim majority areas and not for all Muslims of India......

.....Pakistan's ancient Civilizations are Mehrghar, Gandhara and Indus valley civilizations. While Indian culture mostly has developed in the Indo gangetic plain.

.....Ardeshir Cowasjee is a traitor!....We Pakistanis from different from Indians......We Punjabis, Sindhis, Balochis, Pathans, Kashmiris, Gilgitis have nothing to do with you Tamils, Malayalis, Rajasthanis, Gujaratis, Biharis, Bengalis, Asssamese, Oriya!.......I disagree with Allama Iqbal on the part that Pakistan is Northwest India. PAKISTAN IS NOW PART OF CENTRAL ASIA. Allama Iqbal was only using terminology used by the Imperialists, what else?.....

I am glad the old hag india was cut into pieces, independence was the best thing that could have happened, we are glad we don't have to look at indians every day.

What about the 16 million Muhajirs? Where did the East Pakistanis (Bangalis) fit into all this between 1947-1971? What did Allama Iqbal say about them? Were the intellectual leaders of the Muslim League not all Muhajirs? Weren't Jinnah & Liaquat Ali not Indians in the geographical sense? Isn't the intellectual bastion of the Pakistan movement, i.e. Aligarh Muslim University, not an institution still located in the Gangetic Plains and still run by people from the Gangetic Plains? What did Chowdhary Rehmat Ali have to say about this?

....Why can’t we accept the fact that we are two different people, from two different countries which happen to exist in the same geographical region. I don’t even want to be called a South Asian, because I am only a Pakistani.....

Don't worry, Pakistan will never unite with India.....

....We need Pakistanize our country. Sindh needs to be renamed "Sindistan" and our Punjab "Punjabistan."......

I fully and unconditionally agree that it is a fact that India and Pakistan are a reality and there is no going back after 65 years of separation. There is no room for any doubt in this whatsoever.

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However, the issue is not whether India and Pakistan "growing apart", but whether Pakistan itself is facing a situation in which our internal components are "growing apart".

I feel the main reason why we have so many divisive factions all across Pakistan (Muhajir, Sindhi, Baloch, Balawaristani, Kashmiri, Pashtun, Shia, Barelvi, Deobandi, Hanafi, Hanbali etcetera) is because we have still (even after 65 years) not managed to develop a strong consensus about any cohesive foundational narrative for our country.This is the single most important point.

The evidence for this is all over this thread with different posters making wildy different claims about our integrative story (see comments quoted above).

Perhaps the thread linked below is in the wrong place, but it may help us evolve such a consensus around a strong, cogent and cohesive narrative that we can formalize universally.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/curren...oll-what-foundational-narrative-pakistan.html

Once such a common narrative is in place, I feel a lot of our factionalistic problems will slowly start to disappear and everybody will begin to feel more "Pakistani".....

 

[xyxmt]

Oh Masi jee, we all know pakistan India will never get close. We have had endless discussions, so lets burry this topic about india & Pakistan relations. Lets see what happens

 

[Riyadh Haque]

Pakistan was created in the Muslim majority areas and not for all Muslims of India......

.....Pakistan's ancient Civilizations are Mehrghar, Gandhara and Indus valley civilizations. While Indian culture mostly has developed in the Indo gangetic plain.

.....Ardeshir Cowasjee is a traitor!....We Pakistanis from different from Indians......We Punjabis, Sindhis, Balochis, Pathans, Kashmiris, Gilgitis have nothing to do with you Tamils, Malayalis, Rajasthanis, Gujaratis, Biharis, Bengalis, Asssamese, Oriya!.......I disagree with Allama Iqbal on the part that Pakistan is Northwest India. PAKISTAN IS NOW PART OF CENTRAL ASIA. Allama Iqbal was only using terminology used by the Imperialists, what else?.....

I am glad the old hag india was cut into pieces, independence was the best thing that could have happened, we are glad we don't have to look at indians every day.

....Why can’t we accept the fact that we are two different people, from two different countries which happen to exist in the same geographical region. I don’t even want to be called a South Asian, because I am only a Pakistani.....

Don't worry, Pakistan will never unite with India........We need Pakistanize our country. Sindh needs to be renamed "Sindistan" and our Punjab "Punjabistan."......

As evidenced by the comments above, there are just too many mutually incongruent views on why Pakistan was created and why it continues to exist as a Soverign State.

I think all of us as Pakistanis need to work out a common foundational story. I just wish that we could find some consensus that would be agreeable to >2/3rd of Pakistanis. Once such a common narrative is in place, I feel a lot of our factionalistic problems will slowly start to disappear and everybody will begin to feel more "Pakistani".....

What is the Foundational Narrative for Pakistan?

The way I see it, there are a few leading contenders amongst the numerous theories that seem to be floating about on the issue of what Pakistan is supposed to be. So here they are:

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1) Choudhary Rahmat Ali: The Indus Valley Civilization (IVC) Theory.

Pakistan in an Indus-based Civilization, while (North) India is a Ganges-based Civilization. These two civilizations are as different & distinct as Nile-based Egypt versus Mekong-based ASEAN.

Choudhry Rahmat Ali - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What are the objections to this theory?

The presence of the 16 million Muhajirs from the Gangetic-Plains. They are not Indus-Valley people and are civilizationally Indian and not Pakistani. One way to correct this flaw is by deporting all the 15-million Muhajirs back to their civilizational homeland in the Gangetic-Plains.

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2) Quaid-i-Azam Jinnah: The Two-Nation Theory (TNT).

Pakistan is a separate homeland for "the Muslims of India".

Two-Nation Theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What are the objections to this theory?

(a) The presence of the 200 million Muslims in India who do not have the right to immigrate to the "homeland for the Muslims of India". One way to make this theory whole is by giving all the 200 million Muslims of India the unconditional, undeniable and immediate right to immigrate into Pakistan so that they can also live their lives under the Nur-of-Islam.

(b) The Bengalis divorced us and walked away. The way to overcome this point is to argue that the Bengalis were included by mistake in the first place because of a typographical error. What did we expect? The Quaid once said, "What is this Muslim League? It is just me and my typewriter". Given the overwhelming workload, a typographical error was only to be expected. Another way is to convert the Two-Nation Theory into a Three-Nation Theory in order to resolve this anomaly.

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3) Allama Muhammad Iqbal: The Global Muslim Ummah (GMU) Theory.

Nationalism is Kufr; "Pakistan" is merely the revolutionary seed from which the new Global Khilafah will emerge to unite all 1.5 billions Muslims of the World of under the banner of Islam. Ghazwa-e-Hind may follow, but only if we remember to set the alarm and get up on time tomorrow morning.

Chin O arab hamara hindustaN hamara … « Urdu Ghazals
Muhammad Iqbal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What are the objections to this theory?

The fact that people in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, UAE etcetera treat us like dirt because we are not Arab. One way to make this theory whole is by sending out our brave army to conquer Arabia, subdue their arrogance and sieze control of the Two Holy Places and all their oil. Kiyani could then claim the Mantle of the Khalifah and so establish Iqbal's cherished egalitarion Khilafah without the Arab v/s non-Arab racism, the Quraish v/s Non-Quraish tribalism and the Sayyid v/s non-Sayyid casteism.

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4) Some Other Theory:

Insert your own theory here....If people post their own theories, we can use the "thanks" count to see which ones are popular and then add them here.

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What are your thoughts? Especially MadDog, PakShah, Ticker, Rafi ? Which theory do you prefer, and why? What do you think are the pros and cons of each of the listed popular theories? Do you have another theory in mind? What are the justifications for your theory? What are its advantages and disadvantages?

PS: From my experience and observations--

(1) Many Punjabis & Sindhis like the IVC theory. The Muhajirs hate it. The Pathans & Baloch don't think much about it.

(2) Most Muhajirs like the TNT, although they do not accept that Pakistan was created "only" for the Muslims of the Muslim-majority provinces and insist it was created for all Muslims of India. Many Punjabis, Sindhis & Baloch hate this theory.

(3) Many radicalized Pashtuns and Punjabis support the GMU theory and dream of a Global Khilafah. However, there is not much support for this amongst the Baloch & Sindhis.

 

[MadDog]

@ Gigawatt

I can see the Caucasian Pakistanis not similar to any Indian but look like central Asians.

If you would have read my post, you wouldn't be saying this...god knows why you people are like this....i said...Punjabis of Pak are closer to Punjabis of India....Kashmiris of Pak are closer to Kashmiris of India..but no two countries on earth are genetically similar.

I can show you people of Makran who are decandants of Africans, i can show you Hazaras of Baluchistan who are decendants of Mongols...this doesn't mean we are chinese...lol the way you post 2-3 pics...i can post 10 pics of Indians on North East who have asian look...this means that all indians are like Koreans...don't be immature here.

Caucasian is white race, i never used that word...read my post again..you are making a joke of yourself here my friend. I used the word Caucasoid skull structure which most Pakistanis have....the other skull types are Mongoloid, Negroid, Australoid.

This research was first done by Thomas Huxley Here Four different skull structures of the world are described.
1) Caucasoid characterized by a tall skull with a cephalic index in the mesocephalic range (Mediterraneans generally high/dolichocephalic, Dinarics generally high/brachycephalic, Alpines generally medium height/brachycephalic, Nordics generally tall-medium height/mesocepahlic-dolichocephalic), receded zygomas, large brow ridge and narrow nasal aperture.

2) Negroid characterized by a short dolichocephalic skull shape, receded zygomas and wide nasal aperture.

3) Mongoloid characterized by a medium height/brachycephalic skull, absent browridges, small nasal aperture and projecting zygomas.

4) Australoid, a craniofacial type fell between Negroid and Caucasoid was added. With the addition of this category, Thomas Huxley considered India to fall in this group's craniofacial measurements.[21]

It was Indus where the Aryans settled and they were Caucasoid people....so when i said that i said Indian Punjab, Kashmir is genetically closer to Pakistan i.e people with Caucasoid structures...while Tamils, Telugus, Bengalis ( i accept 2 million Bengalis came to Pakistan in 1980s) are as alien to us as Arabs are. Yes 4-5 % of the people are Muhajirs settled in Karachi, most of them came from Central India, they might have Australoid structures.
I never used the word Central Asian..that shows your level of mentality..that you can't argue with facts.

Here are some pics of people in India who look like asians, using your childish philosophy of using 4-5 pictures to judge a country....i can claim all indians look like Koreans and Chinese...but am not a fool like you/B]
Faces of Ladakh
Ladakhi People

picture file a_little_gorkha_boy_with_th.gif by NICE TO MEET YOU - peperonity.com

Trouble in Darjeeling as India's Gorkha people campaign for new state - Channel NewsAsia

The Hindu : News / National : GJM youth leader mastermind of Tamang killing: IG


In the North of Pakistan these are the people of Kailash...if i were a fool like you by posting these pics i would say Pakistanis are Europeans..lol learn to debate my friend.

History of Pakistan: The falsified myths of Greek and Macedonian roots of Northern Pakistani populations.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

I can see the Caucasian Pakistanis not similar to any Indian but look like central Asians.

You can find exceptions anywhere, but Mad Dog was referring to the general trends.

Check this out, a map of "indigenous" skin colour distribution:

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So it's true, Pakistanis are closer to Central Asians.