Why IAF does NOT need either Eurofighter or Rafale

[joekrish]

The fighters that india is planning to buy is going to serve the IAF for 35 to 40 years, when the future is all about 5th gen fighters is it wise for us to invest so heavenly on a 4.5 gen fighter. If we are looking at a stock gap fighter should nt we look at something cheeper.

I am again telling you all that I don't think F35 is an option at all.

 

[joekrish]

4+ Generation fighters ie Eurofighter an Raphale aims to replace Aging MiGs...21...whereas FGFA or any other 5th gen fighter would be required for the replacement of frontline strike aircraft like the MiG-27 and Jaguar, which would be retiring by 2015. thats what the approach is. u jus cant expect every aging fighter aircraft to be replaced by 5 gen aircraft...

I think all the head banging on the wall has hampered your line of thinking,when you are planning to buy a4.5 gen jet for about 100 mill and you could buy a 5 gen fighter for almost the same price is it not worth waiting.


For the point where you mentioned that the MMRCA deal is to replace the ageing fleet of mig 21
1. Do we have only 126 or 200 mig 21s
2. Does a mig 21 cost 100 mill to buy
All I-m implying here is that if we are planning to replace the old migs should-nt we look at anything cheeper, not that I know better than the IAF, just trying to understand the logic.

 

[perplexed]

I think all the head banging on the wall has hampered your line of thinking,when you are planning to buy a4.5 gen jet for about 100 mill and you could buy a 5 gen fighter for almost the same price is it not worth waiting.


For the point where you mentioned that the MMRCA deal is to replace the ageing fleet of mig 21
1. Do we have only 126 or 200 mig 21s
2. Does a mig 21 cost 100 mill to buy
All I-m implying here is that if we are planning to replace the old migs should-nt we look at anything cheeper, not that I know better than the IAF, just trying to understand the logic.

1. The european fighters are known for their avionics and electronic warfare tech and we hope to gain much through ToT which US won't give.
2. USA wants CISMOA and some other crap agreements before handing us a product which only god knows how much it has been watered down. There is minimal scope of us getting a watered down version for Rafale or Eurofighters.
3. The Tech learned from ToT will help us in development of AMCA/LCA MK-II.
4. It will earn us valuable strategic allies. They maybe be a bit numb off late due to the euro crises but they surely have a very good knowledge base... eg. We are already getting offers of JVs from leading defence manufacturers like BAE, Snecma( for engines), co-operation in designing of Carriers etc etc. All these cooperation is not only impossible with RAytheon/Boeing/LM but infeasible to even think of it in future..
5. We hope to maintain 10-12 squadrons of 5th gen fighters( FGFA) which will be quite a force. eg. Presently even US has only arnd 200 F22 (5th gen) operational......
6. F35C is already facing the hangman's noose .
7. The cost per plane in flyaway condition which we are expecting is around 105 million dollars. No 5th gen fighter is available for that price in flyaway condition. The argument that FGFA will cost around 120 million dollars a piece ( thus comparable to mmrca ) is senseless since we would have already invested more than 10bn $ towards it's research base.

to F35 flag bearers in this threads: stop crying now....

 

[luckyyy]

the MoD re-valued its original estimation in a process called 'benchmarking'. But Mr Rae knows that if the winning quote emerges significantly more expensive than the MoD's "benchmarked" figure, the process will begin anew.

Such an eventuality would be a blessing in disguise;

 

[LiberalAtheist]

MMRCA EFT or Rafale can counter the J-10 whereas FGFA/PAKFA will counter the J-20 the writer of this article must be getting bribed with money or US citizenship to write such crap. the reasons to why India should not get F-35 were already explained here

Livefist: COLUMN | F-35: Should India Really Ride The Lightning?

this is not to say we should abandon attempts to procure F-35, in the future when the technology has matured along with lockheed willing to design a dual seat 2 engine indian variant then it should be considered as a back up plan to the on paper AMCA. my view is that we should see how AMCA goes then if it ends up like LCA go for F-35

 

[IND151]

Yes we are working with Russia for a 5 gen fighter but is it wise for India to invest on an 4.5 gen fighter way this point when we could wait and look at other options, we are also spending almost the same amount of money.


Can the 4+ gen fighters do anything better that a 5 gen fighter can't do?
Can someone with throw some light on this subject?

Thanx in advance.

fifth gen fighters have upper hand over 4.5 gen fighters

but they are new and with plenty flaws

4.5 gen fighters are matured

and seeing problems in f 35 and pak fa decade away, 4.5 gen fighters will rule skies for long time

 

[Awesome]

Ooops! This guy seems to have forgotten about the Indo Russian 5th generation stealth FGFA, 250 of which would be in the IAF inventory by 2020, the time the J-20 would be operationalized!

By 2020, sure...

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

lol French gona kill ya people, they kicked us out for JFT Avionics just because of 12 Billions and if you selected F-35 you are seriously dead

 

[Black Widow]

Oh! Not again, Ajay please...

India is desperately needed to restore the economics of production. Britain's Royal Air Force has already slashed its order for Typhoons.

And, couple of weeks ago, The New York Times reported that Germany's Luftwaffe (which ironically spearheads the Typhoon campaign in India) is trimming its purchase from 177 to 140 Typhoons.

Honorable Ajay, can you tell me any immediate threat for UK and Germany?? while China and Pakistan are waiting for chance to start war. Did they cancel it coz of inferior quality? or economic pressure??

Five years after that, operational J-20s, of the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), will be dominating the Himalayas. The IAF MMRCAs, already outclassed by 2020, will limp around the skies till 2050 since the MoD will rightly protest that Rs 42,000-84,000 crore have been spent on them

J20, F35,F22,FGFA,PAK-FA,AMCA are 5th gen fighter that we all know. What we don't know that they are costly and no country will have it more than 250 in numbers. Now my question is what bout rest of fleet?? Don't Mr Ajay feel that rest fighters will be 4.5 gen fighters????

I do agree that the F35 is a wrong choice for India but should we invest on a 4+ gen fighter now.

@Joekrish: No country can afford there entire fleet consist 5th gen stealth. We need high low mixture, 250 5th gen fighters, 750 4th and 4++ gen fighters.

 

[Black Widow]

lol French gona kill ya people, they kicked us out for JFT Avionics just because of 12 Billions and if you selected F-35 you are seriously dead

F35 has no chance for IAF. Yes IN can think about F35C in limited numbers.
1. F35A/B delivery will be late.
2. It will be costly
3. We already banking on two fifth gen projects PAK-FA and AMCA.
4. We need minimum deterrence to defend ourself from communist state china and theological state Pakistan.

I think all the head banging on the wall has hampered your line of thinking,when you are planning to buy a4.5 gen jet for about 100 mill and you could buy a 5 gen fighter for almost the same price is it not worth waiting.


For the point where you mentioned that the MMRCA deal is to replace the ageing fleet of mig 21
1. Do we have only 126 or 200 mig 21s
2. Does a mig 21 cost 100 mill to buy
All I-m implying here is that if we are planning to replace the old migs should-nt we look at anything cheeper, not that I know better than the IAF, just trying to understand the logic.

Looks like you have lot of query, Let me clear some air around your doubts..
1. MMRCA is to replace/complement Ground attack fighters, like M2000H,Jaguar,MiG23/27. Earlier these fighter bombers need escort by Superiority fighters (MiG29 and Su30MKI) to attack enemy (Read Kargil war). Now if they have air-to-air capability, they won't need escort. So thats why we are looking for rafael or EFT.
2. MiG21 is used as point defense in IAF, LCA will replace it. You may think what advantage LCA has??? So the advantage is more sortie, less refueling time, less response time. heavy fighter need more time between two sortie.
3. @ cost: Price has gone up for every fighters, even F18 and MiG35 were at similar cost. Su35BM, Su30MK and F16 also cost similar. With Su30MKI we have access to russian technology, with EFT/Rafel we will have access to European technology. And trust me Lifetime cost for F35 will not be cheaper, It will be twice of the plane we are looking for, and most important USA will not give us ToT, so we can not make key components. Without spare Fighter planes are useless.
4: you had one more question "What 4th gen fighter can do which 5th gen can not do". Yes there is one thing what which 5th gen fighter can't do. 5th gen fighter have limited load capability, they can carry 8-10 missile (max). Do you think 8-10 missile is enough to neutralize enemy land based infrastructure??? Yes in terms of load 5th gen fighter have limitation. having external load can compramise its stealth capability (which is major criteria of 5th gen fighter).

Feel free to ask for any query..

 

[Pak47]

Feel sorry for the countries that spent money and time to offer the planes if cancelled.

 

[IND151]

@Joekrish: No country can afford there entire fleet consist 5th gen stealth. We need high low mixture, 250 5th gen fighters, 750 4th and 4++ gen fighters.

just like cheaper f 16s and expensive, more capable f 15s

 

[Black Widow]

just like cheaper f 16s and expensive, more capable f 15s

Exactly this is what I want to say, but with little modification

Expensive F22 with cheaper F15 (In heavy class category)
Expensive F35 with cheaper F16 (In light class category)
Expensive F35C (carrier) with cheaper F18 (For US Navy).

In same pattern India will have
Expensive FGFA with cheaper Su30MKI (In Heavy class)
Expensive AMCA (it success full) with cheaper Rafael/EFT,M200H,MiG29 (In medium weight class)
Cheap LCA to fill the sqaudron gap.
Expensive N-FGFA, N-AMCA(If it comes up) with cheaper N-LCA and MiG29K

the Quantity of expensive fighter will be 20-30% of total fleet...



its my personal view, One is free to Disagree...

 

[Archie]

Well , you are right

However , we should not count Mirage 2000 and Mig 29 in a post 2025 senario , even though after the upgrade ,Mirage 2000 will remain in service till 2030

Also We have only confirmed order for 214 FGFA , which will be delivered between 2018-30 , remaining orders will depend on any possible delay in AMCA beyond 2026
Thats coz 150 odd AMCA currently planned are suposed to replace 57 Jaguars + 51 Mirages 2000 and 48 Su30MKI delivered by Russia between 2001-04 which will retire by 2035

Also I expect IAF will order 126+64 mmrca and 123 + 57 LCA

by 2030 , we might have
14 sqds of Su30MKI
10 sqds of mmrca
12 sqds of FGFA
09 sqds of LCA

with AMCA entering service in 2030 to first replace LCA MK1 and then replace Su30MKI starting 2035