Why going ' MAD ' won't work for India ?

[Dillinger]

You said in your own post # 122 that surviving nuclear war is in itself a victory ....

I stated that survival of the state is victory, is this why you've been confused!!

 

[RAMPAGE]

Ahemm...consider that that is unsubstantiated, at the moment we only have the substantiated stockpile figures with the Americans stating that Pakistan is actively converting its stockpile into warheads. Lets stick with that or else everyone here will be claiming that they have more of this or more of that. We operate here on figures we can back up with some source.

What's with the dp, I was scrolling down the page and half of it was visible..looked like a bloody "gash".

Yara we lost the only Palestinian member so I had to pick up the flag.

Lets not go off-topic here coz Oscar is not in a very good mood these days.

ttl

 

[Indo-guy]

I stated that survival of the state is victory, is this why you've been confused!!

No I am not confused. It's you who is confused. Ever since I asked you that question you have been shifting from victory, winnability of nuclear war and what not .

I said that GOI had in its assessment come to the conclusion that India will survive nuclear war against the Pakistan .

and I have something like that to back up my assertion.

where are your references about Death of India ?

you have nothing but your word of mouth to prop up your arguments .

 

[Dillinger]

No I am not confused. It's you who is confused. Ever since I asked you that question you have been shifting from victory, winnability of nuclear war and what not .

I said that GOI had in its assessment come to the conclusion that India will survive nuclear war against the Pakistan .

and I have something like that to back up my assertion.

where are your references about Death of India ?

you have nothing but your word of mouth to prop up your arguments .

No you're confusing the meaning of my statements.

Post 122 from page 9 clearly states that while Indians will survive in large numbers the Indian state (please tell me you can define the state) will not and thus we cannot call it a victory nor can we win but we (the people, not necessarily you and me) will survive in numbers only to suffer through years of horrible deprivation.

HOW IS THIS NOT CLEAR ENOUGH, HOW IS IT THAT MULTIPLE MEMBERS HAVE STATED THE SAME AND YOU ARE STILL CONFLATING SURVIVAL WITH VICTORY WHETHER OR NOT YOU AGREE WITH THE MERIT OF WHAT WE'RE STATING!

Yara we lost the only Palestinian member so I had to pick up the flag.

Lets not go off-topic here coz Oscar is not in a very good mood these days.

ttl

Palestine will only be free when Jesus comes back, at which point I am going to ask him for an autograph.

 

[Indo-guy]

No you're confusing the meaning of my statements.

Post 122 from page 9 clearly states that while Indians will survive in large numbers the Indian state (please tell me you can define the state) will not and thus we cannot call it a victory nor can we win but we (the people, no necessarily you and me) will survive in numbers only to suffer through years of horrible deprivation.

HOW IS THIS NOT CLEAR ENOUGH, HOW IS THAT MULTIPLE MEMBERS HAVE STATED THE SAME AND YOU ARE STILL CONFLATING SURVIVAL WITH VICTORY WHETHER OR NOT YOU AGREE WITH THE MERIT OF WHAT WE'RE STATING!



Palestine will only be free when Jesus comes back, at which point I am going to ask him for an autograph.

THE MULTIPLE MEMBERS YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT - ARE THEY GODS ???

Back up your assertions with scientific studies , analyses .

Do you think GOI came up with its conclusion based on inputs of bunch of think tanks like you guys ?

 

[Dillinger]

THE MULTIPLE MEMBERS YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT - ARE THEY GODS ???

Back up your assertions with scientific studies , analyses .

Do you think GOI came us with its conclusion based on inputs of bunch of think tanks like you guys ?

GOI pretty much stated just what we did, that we will be horribly mangled while Pakistani will be dead. Is this what we call a victory?

 

[Indo-guy]

GOI pretty much stated just what we did, that we will be horribly mangled while Pakistani will be dead. Is this what we call a victory?

If Pakistan is gone and India survives ...it is a victory ...even if it is a pyrrhic victory ....so it be .

and that's the reason why Pakistanis should worry about engaging in nuclear war with India .

Here we are not talking about nuclear war between Russia and US which have almost equivalent capability .

Odds in capabilities in various domains between Pakistan and India favor India. that was the unmistakable conclusion of GOI assessment .


Your assertion that GOI stated just as we did is absolutely laughable .

what do you think of yourselves ?

GOI just did not engage in mental masturbation .

GOI actually ran the simulation with worst case scenario ...


and mind you this was worst case scenario assessment .

 

[Dillinger]

If Pakistan is gone and India survives ...it is a victory ...even if it is a pyrrhic victory ....so it be .

and that's the reason why Pakistanis should worry about engaging in nuclear war with Pakistan .

Here we are not talking about nuclear war between Russia and US which have almost equivalent capability .

Odds in capabilities in various domains between Pakistan and India favor India. that was the unmistakable conclusion of GOI assessment .


Your assertion that GOI stated just as we did is absolutely laughable .

what do you think of yourselves ?

GOI just did not engage in mental masturbation .

GOI actually ran the simulation with worst case scenario ...


and mind you this was worst case scenario assessment .

AND GOI came out with what? That we would pay a horrible price and as a nation, as a people a certain number of us would indeed survive while Pakistan will be completely gone.

That's pretty much what even the Pakistani members here have stated.

The only difference being that no one here in their right mind would call that a victory.

Post after post we've said the same thing, that a VERY horrible price will be put upon our heads, excuse me if I don't consider the survival of our babus scurrying in bunkers while every other sign of India's progress melts away as a victory. That's all that will be left, a desolate land, a destitute people and probably the cabinet in the bunkers. Unless of course you think that the Pakistanis will be kind enough to spare our metros or our industrial centers.

Gaming a worst case scenario and then stating that hooray they got it worse than us (which from post 1 itself ironically both Indians and Pakistani posters have been agreeing to) is not even remotely close to victory. Even if we were to loose the urban parts of Maharashtra and Gujarat India would no longer be the India we know today.

 

[Indo-guy]

AND GOI came out with what? That we would pay a horrible price and as a nation, as a people a certain number of us would indeed survive while Pakistan will be completely gone.

That's pretty much what even the Pakistani members here have stated.

The only difference being that no one here in their right mind would call that a victory.

Post after post we've said the same thing, that a VERY horrible price will be put upon our heads, excuse me if I don't consider the survival of our babus scurrying in bunkers while every other sign of India's progress melts away as a victory. That's all that will be left, a desolate land, a destitute people and probably the cabinet in the bunkers. Unless of course you think that the Pakistanis will be kind enough to spare our metros or our industrial centers.

Gaming a worst case scenario and then stating that hooray they got it worse than us (which from post 1 itself ironically both Indians and Pakistani posters have been agreeing to) is not even remotely close to victory. Even if we were to loose the urban parts of Maharashtra and Gujarat India would no longer be the India we know today.

and you are the few persons who is in right mind ?

Must be that's why so many Pakistani members are agreeing with you ...because you are echoing their subliminal desires...you are telling them what exactly what they want to hear ...

which need not be the case .

Now you have actually become " WE " so you are trying to enlist support of your friends to reason with me ???

what you have written post after posts , I know very well .

If you have something substantial to contribute then only quote my post .

at least I have GOI assessment ...to back up ..what do you have .

Come back with some literature if you have any ...then we shall talk .

however your dishonesty to enlist the other Pakistani members by saying something as obnoxious as saying that we need not go nuclear to resolve our security concerns implying that Indians have been thinking of nuclear war to get rid of Pakistan problem is well evident .

It for this reason alone and not because you are right , they are supporting your statements .

I seek no such approval from others, for I am very well capable to carry on my reasoning on my own strength .

 

[Dillinger]

and you are the few persons who is in right mind ?

Must be that's why so many Pakistani members are agreeing with you ...because you are echoing their subliminal desires...you are telling them what exactly what they want to hear ...

which need not be the case .

Now you have actually become " WE " so you are trying to enlist support of your friends to reason with me ???

what you have written post after posts , I know very well .

If you have something substantial to contribute then only quote my post .

at least I have GOI assessment ...to back up ..what do you have .

Come back with some literature if you have any ...then we shall talk .

however your dishonesty to enlist the other Pakistani members by saying something as obnoxious as saying that we need not go nuclear to resolve our security concerns implying that Indians have been thinking of nuclear war to get rid of Pakistan problem is well evident .

It for this reason alone and not because you are right , they are supporting your statements .

I seek no such approval from others, for I am very well capable to carry on my reasoning on my own strength .

You know, their opinions aren't automatically irrelevant just because they are Pakistani or flipping Martians for that matter.

My posts are quite cogent and quite clear, in fact I have had to break them down in excruciating detail because you have been conflating different issues together repeatedly.

And the greater irony is that even the Pakistani members seem to be happy to accept the GOI's assessment, only they have a different interpretation of it altogether as opposed to yours.

They have enumerated the same "horrible cost/price" that the GOI has, they have stated quite clearly that "more" of Pakistan will burn just as the GOI states. But they simply refuse to consider what will be left of India as being a cause for a declaration of victory, which they are correct in stating.

Its like saying that a man who lost all his finger as opposed to a man who still has two left is the loser, they've both lost, only the quantum of their loss varies, while the third fellow looks on and laughs at their foolishness.

 

[Indo-guy]

You know, their opinions aren't automatically irrelevant just because they are Pakistani or flipping Martians for that matter.

My posts are quite cogent and quite clear, in fact I have had to break them down in excruciating detail because you have been conflating different issues together repeatedly.

And the greater irony is that even the Pakistani members seem to be happy to accept the GOI's assessment, only they have a different interpretation of it altogether as opposed to yours.

They have enumerated the same "horrible cost/price" that the GOI has, they have stated quite clearly that "more" of Pakistan will burn just as the GOI states. But they simply refuse to consider what will be left of India as being a cause for a declaration of victory, which they are correct in stating.

Now go and celebrate with them ...

 

[Dillinger]

Now go and celebrate with them ...

How does any notion of celebration occur to you? Is this some dick measuring contest between Indians and Pakistanis, has Pakistan won some great victory? Has India lost something precious?

It was a simple statement of facts that the assessment (whether yours' or the GOI's or Oscar's) that more of India will survive than Pakistan cannot be a cause for celebrating a victory, because we will both have lost only to gain nothing.

Which ironically is EXACTLY what MAD stands for.

 

[Indo-guy]

How does any notion of celebration occur to you? Is this some dick measuring contest between Indians and Pakistanis, has Pakistan won some great victory? Has India lost something precious?

It was a simple statement of facts that the assessment (whether yours' or the GOI's or Oscar's) that more of India will survive than Pakistan cannot be a cause for celebrating a victory, because we will both have lost only to gain nothing.

Which ironically is EXACTLY what MAD stands for.

So you have figured out the meaning of MAD ?
You deserve Nobel prize for that ...
2 Nobels actually ...One for figuring meaning of MAD and another for making our Pakistani friends happy !!!

 

[gslv mk3]

Yes I did , all that it mentioned was the possibility of creating warheads upto 200 kT whilst maintaining the current yield at 45 kT . I knew well before that both countries have tested thermonuclear weapons in their respective tests , I just know that this <50 isn't effective TN warheads yield .

Who told you ? At present,Agni I & IIs are equipped with 200 kt FBFs weighing around 1 tonne.

For Agni II,Agni V & Shourya.

Agni-III RV supports a wide range of weapons, with total payload mass ranging from 600 to 3,490 Kg. The missile range is a function of payload (see graph below).
This is the first Re-Entry Vehicle (RV) that is designed & optimised for the new lighter 200Kt thermonuclear payload weapon and corresponding to a very long range. The 200Kt yield weapon reportedly weights less than 450 Kg, however some sources indicate a mass of between 300 to 200 Kg4. The sharp high‘²’ (Ballistic coefficient5) RV design employs 17 cm diameter blunt nose with a nose cone section 2 meter long and half angle of 11°, followed by a 0.65 meter long cylindrical section that is terminated by with a 0.5 meter long, 1.5 meter diameter interface to the missile adapter.
Compared to Agni-II this RV is shorter, more voluminous and just 3.3 meter long. The high ‘²’ RV in combination with an all carbon composite body enables higher re-entry speed even with a lighter weight payload.

India’s Long Range Missile » Indian Defence Review

Now you didnt aswer my question-Wasnt Chagai II a Boosted Fission one ?

You claimed 200MT in the post I quoted .

200 kT,I said. MT was a typo,which I edited later.

I hope you mean is trying to a miniaturize a nuclear reactor..
Here in India..based on our experience in operating Russian nuclear sub, we started our efforts to miniaturize a nuclear reactor early 90s, built a prototype by 2003 and will be finally commissioning our first boomer in 2014. More power to you if you can complete the whole process in a just over a decade.

There is another,more important aspect-The experience in designing its Indigenous reactors,which India had.

 

[Dillinger]

Who told you ? At present,Agni I & IIs are equipped with 200 kt FBFs weighing around 1 tonne.

For Agni II,Agni V & Shourya.



India’s Long Range Missile » Indian Defence Review

Now you didnt aswer my question-Wasnt Chagai II a Boosted Fission one ?



200 kT,I said. MT was a typo,which I edited later.



There is another,more important aspect-The experience in designing its Indigenous reactors,which India had.

The yield figures are pretty much set and confirmed, specially with our move towards canisterization. Another important element, with "ready to launch" vehicles carrying mated warheads, it will be interesting to see how Pakistan calibrates its doctrine in response.

Although, much is being made out of supposed plans for a third strike capability projection by the PN, rest assured it will boil down to AIP equipped subs operating perhaps with tube launched nuclear capable LACMs, that too it will take time, but it well might end up translating to a better launch readiness on their part too.

It would be tempting to ponder upon a decapitation strike from an Arihant at sea.