Why Doesn't Pakistan Issue MMRCA Tender?

[desiman]

Starting with the F-16 Rebuild Factory in 1972, the PAC had grown in capability, responsibility, expertise and confidence and today the factory overhauls six different types of Chinese-origin fighter aircraft and all their components. The PAC saw the Mirage Rebuild Factory come up in 1974, which now repairs, overhauls and upgrades avionics of the largest Mirage III. Kamra Avionics and Radar Factory (KARF) was established in 1989 and today it rebuilds and overhauls electronics equipment like low level radars, control, reporting centre and power generators besides, producing radar warning receivers and co-produces airborne intercept radars for F-7P aircraft. The the Aircraft Manufacturing Factory (AMF) started as a base for aviation manufacture in the country in 1975 and started manufacturing SAAB MFI-17 Mushshak aircraft under licence from SAAB-SCANIA of Sweden while the production of aerial target drones was also added to its list. The AMF also participated in the design development and co-production of the Karakarom-8 aircraft with China.

Y-12 Aircraft is operating with PAF since 1996 with only first and second line maintenance facilities. Facility for overhaul after 4000 hrs was not available in Pakistan therefore they had to be sent to China. PAF tasked PAC to undertake the overhaul of two Y-12 aircraft which was successfully completed in December 2004.

Overhaul of Alternate Mission Equipment (AME) of Mirage Aircraft was not carried out since induction of the fleet. Since the cost of overhaul by the OEM was very high, the task was handed over to F-6RF which was accomplished successfully. Establishment of the facilities had increased the operational readiness of the PAF fleet and saved considerable amount in FE.

Sri Lankan air force [SLAF] authorities requested PAC Board for overhaul of its one FT-5, three F-7 and two FT-7 aircraft. For this purpose a contract was signed on 20 February, 2002. The aircraft were inducted in April, 2003 and were handed over to SLAF after overhaul, in a ceremony on 10 march, 2005 at Sri Lanka.

Overhauling facility for C-130 aircraft propeller did not exist in the country. The propellers were sent abroad for major repair and overhaul which resulted in high un-serviceability of C-130 aircraft because of shipment time and high cost of repair. To overcome such problems, in-country propeller overhaul/repair facility was established at F-6RF. This facility was established in collaboration with DERCO USA and M/S Hamilton Sundstrand Holland. It is a great step forward to self reliance through transfer of technology and would enable reduction in propeller turn around time/ dependency on foreign vendors. The propeller overhaul facility was inaugurated by Mr Shaukat Aziz Prime Minister Islamic Republic of Pakistan on 27 February, 06. First Propeller was rolled out after overhaul on 31 March, 2006.

K-8 aircraft were inducted in the PAF inventory in 1994. The first batch of these aircraft was falling due for overhaul. Whereas the initial aircraft were sent to China for overhaul, efforts were made to upgrade the facilities at F-6 RF in order to carry out the overhaul of these aircraft locally. Overhaul of the last aircraft out of the first batch is being accomplished at F-6RF. This aircraft was inducted for overhaul in March 2006 and will be produced in March, 2007.

PAF added F-7PG and FT-7PG aircraft to its fleet during the year 2002. Each of the aircraft has a total service life of 2400 hrs, with an overhauling cycle after every 800 hrs. To cater for overhauling aspect of the fleet, a contract was signed between CATIC and PAF for setting up the facilities at F-6 RF. Apart from the financial benefits, the set up of this facility will reduce the turn around time of overhaul from 18 – 20 months to 6 – 8 months which will ensure greater flexibility for PAF and availability of more operational effort at much lesser cost. This project will also allow access to advanced technology for F-6 RF. First two F-7PG aircraft were inducted for overhaul in October/November, 2006 and will be produced in July, 2007.

Boeing Offset Project for manufacturing some of the Boeing aircraft parts is an offset of PIA’s decision of purchasing Boeing 777 aircraft. Boeing conducted a survey of the PAC facilities in this regard. After evaluation of the entire necessary infrastructure, expertise and quality system, Boeing offered transfer of technology and technical support to PAC. F-6RF was selected as a most suitable site to undertake this project. A contract of manufacturing Boeing aircraft parts was signed in Oct 2004. Four Axis and three Axis machines were inducted and commissioned. Existing infrastructure and facilities were renovated up graded and brought up to the standards acceptable to Boeing quality management. PAC obtained internationally acclaimed Boeing Quality Management System (BQMS) approval in October, 2004. Boeing Parts Production Certification’ ceremony held on 27 February, 2006 was graced by Mr Shaukat Aziz Prime Minister, Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

Engine overhaul facilities of MRF have been servicing ATAR 9C & F-100 Engines since years. Expansion of scope of this setup was planned by addition of T-56 Engine overhaul programme. Establishment of the facilities commenced in November, 2003. The overhaul of first engine was completed in January, 2005. T-56 engine roll out ceremony was held on 13 January, 2005 at PAF Base Chaklala. Prime minister of Pakistan Mr. Shaukat Aziz was the chief guest of the occasion.

Project ROSE at MRF is a special Project, which is supported by Air Headquarters. In financial year 2003-04, Project ROSE was tasked by Air Headquarters to upgrade Avionics of Mirage-V EF aircraft. Rose-III modified 1st serial aircraft was displayed at Paris Air Show from 11 – 19 June, 2005. The participation in such a world renowned forum has given MRF an opportunity to effectively market its products and services in the international aviation industry.

The performance contract for sale of 20 Super Mushshak aircraft was signed in January, 2004 between PAC and Saudi Ministry of Defence and Aviation (MODA). The delivery of these aircraft was completed in January, 2006. As per the contract, PAC will also provide operational, maintenance, administrative and logistics support to Saudi Air Force for three years.

After successful transfer of technology, the serial production of K-8 front fuselage manufacturing commenced in November, 2005. First batch of serial production comprises 05 front fuselages. Two front fuselages have been manufactured and remaining 03 are under production.

Source :Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC)

You are advising others to respect senior members but before advising others perform your own duty unbiasedly and do some research b4 posting anythng ...You urself are biased and are blaming others for overpatriotism...Senior member doesnt mean that u will post anythng without any research and implement it anywhere you like

I really don’t know what so tough to understand when I say that the PAF cannot maintain the same number of jet that the IAF maintains. I don’t know where all these post about factory’s and TOT’s etc etc are coming up. Mr.Mani2020 I have worked in this industry long enough to know how much work goes into just getting a plane out of a hanger. The PAF currently has a good technical and servicing record mainly due to the fact that it believes in Quality vs Quantity. Maintain an F-7 vs maintain an MRCA level jet is totally different ball game. Currently the PAF has about 320 combat aircraft, mainly the Mirage, F-7, F-16 and JF-17. The F-17 have been under the PAF for almost 30 years now and the PAF knows the jet better than anyone else. Their support infrastructure for all these jet are pretty strong mainly due to the fact that they have been in service for quite some time as well as Pakisan’s close proximity with China, who is a dependable supplier of spare parts. There is a ratio used to evaluate jet called the maintenance/flight ratio, which basically means how much maintenance goes into a jet vs the amount of flight hours it can churn out. Higher 4th generation and 5th generation jet have a very high ratio normally and require a unique infrastructure of technicians and support staff. The whole point is that the PAF resources does not allow it to maintain a fleet of over the max of 500 combat aircraft currently. Even that is stretching it. The PAF is much better off sticking with its induction plan for the JF-17 and the J-10 rather than trying to compete with the IAF, and trying to get something similar to the MRCA. PAF and IAF are two totally different identities and there is no comparison. Your providing me links and post about TOT and local production but that is not at all connected to what im saying and your just trying to somehow prove your point. Let me tell you this, I have worked supply Chain management in terms of managing the supply of spare parts to various organizations in the world. I am sure I know how much work goes maintenance. Next time research something related to the topic, I have heard enough about Karma etc etc from over sensitive people here anyways.

 

[raveolution]

PAF has already evaluated EF, Rafale, Gripen and F-18 long time ago. THe IAF MRCA tender is noting but political play card to gain world wide defence market attention that hey India has got tones of money to spend.
Back in early 90s when UAE released a tender for 80 advance MRCAs they looked at all the potential platforms evaluated on the papers and only 2 were chosen, the Rafale and F-16 block 60. Then finally F-16 was chosen without making such a hype in european market.

I believe that the PAF did indeed evaluate the Mirage 2000 very closely and flight tested the Gripen. Any links to PAF pilots evaluating the EF, Rafale and F-18 in multiple sorties during hot / cold weather conditions along with weapons testing, etc (which actually counts as evaluation rather than on paper), would be appreciated.

As far as the MMRCA tender goes, it's a double edged sword. The IAF is definitely going in for 126 or even 200 aircraft and this is inevitable. In due process, if it does manage to showcase its financial muscle and political weight, it counts as an advantage.

 

[Storm Force]

Nobody in The Western World or the GOP or The Pakistani Military have any doubts that India has a lot of money to spend $$$ in the next 10 years.

Infact the $11 billion is just a small % of the overall $100 billion that india will spend on new hardware for all 3 SERVICES.

As for PAF issuing a MMRCA tender they have decided to simply put their limited resources on Thunder and a handful of J10..

THERE SEEMS TO DEEP MISTRUST OF ALL OTHER CONTENDERS
to supply faourable credit like chinease soft loans or to resupply in war situation.

MMRCA global tender no chance Pakistan has neither the money or the widespread political clout to invite tenders globally.

 

[Donatello]

And another thread turns into India vs Pakistan...............nicely done boys!

 

[bilal1219]

Its because of indians that the thread turns into india vs pak, Since they get false/vague/pointless Infor from BR and the come and Spill it out here and pi$$ us off

 

[Moscow]

Well Sir,I am not very adept at Comparisons.But what from i have heard i mean Eurofighter has Downed Multiple Jets Single Handedly which were either better than JF or Equal.

thats why i said mathematical possibility

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Any supporting evidence for the bold statement (pun intentional)?
Are you trying to imply that UAE's tender provided PAF an opportunity to evaluate in the background? Anything supportin your claims will be welcome.
In which year did Pak evalate F-18 and when did they evaluate the other aircrafts ?

BTW, you have claimed a lot in your posts and sound like you know everything about every platform India claims to develop or has developed. Even in this case you have made a rash comment.

How about if i also tell you clowns that russia afford pakistan mig-29s and Su-27 in the 90s?


now stfu and educate yourself

 

[Moscow]

How about if i also tell you clowns that russia afford pakistan mig-29s and Su-27 in the 90s?


now stfu and educate yourself

offcourse they did offer flanker models in exchange for hard cash about mig 29 thats not possible except for mig 31

why didnt paf take the flankers they could have asked the chinese about flanker capabilities

 

[Donatello]

offcourse they did offer flanker models in exchange for hard cash about mig 29 thats not possible except for mig 31

why didnt paf take the flankers they could have asked the chinese about flanker capabilities

I assume PAF wanted a logistically simple aircraft, like single engine single seater. Hence looking for J-10 for the 4.5 gen fleet.

Two engines offer higher payload capacity and increased loiter time and range but it's two engines per plane so if 100 planes then 200 engines, which can be a nightmare to keep up, not to mention finding spare ones.


Plus the Chinese bought the SU 27 in 1998 so maybe not in time when PAF wanted these jets....

 

[IceCold]

I really don’t know what so tough to understand when I say that the PAF cannot maintain the same number of jet that the IAF maintains. I don’t know where all these post about factory’s and TOT’s etc etc are coming up. Mr.Mani2020 I have worked in this industry long enough to know how much work goes into just getting a plane out of a hanger. The PAF currently has a good technical and servicing record mainly due to the fact that it believes in Quality vs Quantity. Maintain an F-7 vs maintain an MRCA level jet is totally different ball game. Currently the PAF has about 320 combat aircraft, mainly the Mirage, F-7, F-16 and JF-17. The F-17 have been under the PAF for almost 30 years now and the PAF knows the jet better than anyone else. Their support infrastructure for all these jet are pretty strong mainly due to the fact that they have been in service for quite some time as well as Pakisan’s close proximity with China, who is a dependable supplier of spare parts. There is a ratio used to evaluate jet called the maintenance/flight ratio, which basically means how much maintenance goes into a jet vs the amount of flight hours it can churn out. Higher 4th generation and 5th generation jet have a very high ratio normally and require a unique infrastructure of technicians and support staff. The whole point is that the PAF resources does not allow it to maintain a fleet of over the max of 500 combat aircraft currently. Even that is stretching it. The PAF is much better off sticking with its induction plan for the JF-17 and the J-10 rather than trying to compete with the IAF, and trying to get something similar to the MRCA. PAF and IAF are two totally different identities and there is no comparison. Your providing me links and post about TOT and local production but that is not at all connected to what im saying and your just trying to somehow prove your point. Let me tell you this, I have worked supply Chain management in terms of managing the supply of spare parts to various organizations in the world. I am sure I know how much work goes maintenance. Next time research something related to the topic, I have heard enough about Karma etc etc from over sensitive people here anyways.

Funny it is an Indian telling us what capabilities we Pakistanis possess and what not and they cry out loud calling us insecure when some one else tells them how indigenous their product is and how much capability do they possess. Seriously dont troll and derail every Pakistani thread. You are the one whos not getting it even though most members waisted bandwidth to explain it to you. Let me tell you something We are well aware of our strenghts and weakness, no need for you to give in your much not need insight.

 

[Donatello]

Funny it is an Indian telling us what capabilities we Pakistanis possess and what not and they cry out loud calling us insecure when some one else tells them how indigenous their product is and how much capability do they possess. Seriously dont troll and derail every Pakistani thread. You are the one whos not getting it even though most members waisted bandwidth to explain it to you. Let me tell you something We are well aware of our strenghts and weakness, no need for you to give in your much not need insight.

He (Desiman) recently got promoted to elite member status, what more can anyone say?

 

[IceCold]

He (Desiman) recently got promoted to elite member status, what more can anyone say?

Yes so have i noticed, but irrespective of that, no one should be allowed to troll and some policy should be made applicable specially w.r.t Indians and their constantly derailing of our threads such as the case above.

 

[Donatello]

Yes so have i noticed, but irrespective of that, no one should be allowed to troll and some policy should be made applicable specially w.r.t Indians and their constantly derailing of our threads such as the case above.

I have been visiting Defence.pk for a long time. Just joined recently and started posting because of the exact reason that every thread goes off topic.

Mods should obviously Moderate here.

 

[pak-yes]

Yar i started this thread in order to get suggestions what to do with 8 Billion Dollars.Then i was corrected by a think tank that 8 Billion Dollars might be the budget for other services besides PAF.

Logically this thread should had been close because the point was clear but look it turned into another War thread.More Mud Slinging on each other.

I request to MODS please close the thread.There is nothing more to discuss here.

 

[gogbot]

Why does Pakistan nor have an MMRCA tender of its own ?

Simply put , It cant.

For obvious reasons both political and economic.

For starters inducting a new plane incurs a huge cost in logistics and maintenance and new weapons.

PAF has been forbidden from operating any fighter aircraft that is twin engine, by the parliamentary body.

Secondly given Pakistan has been limited to only single engine aircraft.

it only has 3 viable options for induction.

F-16, Griphen and J-10 .

Pakistan has chosen the F-16
and has opted for the J-10 over the Griphen due to financial and Strategic. concerns also inducting the J-10 mean the plane can operate the far more easily available Chinese weapons .

you ask for the MMRCA but what planes does Pakistan want and what can it get ?

Pakistan is financially constrained on both the rafeal and EF as well as being forbidden from twin engine fighters.

Russia would not sell and neither does it have a single engine aircraft.

China and US have already given Pakistan it single engine aircraft.

France has shut down the Mirage line, so all that's left to get is the Girphen

So tell me who will participate in the MMRCA tender and what will they offer.
What can Pakistan get out of that.

India is getting 50% offset on it purchase, a brand new state of the art platform a strengthened strategic partnership. A brand new state of the art platform , which is cheaper to operate then the MKI , New weapons etc. even the LCA is linked to the MMRCA. India benefits greatly

Now here your chance, if you still don't know why Pakistan does not have an MMRCA . Here is your chance dazzle me , tell what Pakistan can gain from such a tender , even if it can happen given Financial and Political constrains.