Why do you accept Nagorno-Karabakh to be part of Azerbaijan, when you don't accept the State of Israel?

[Hack-Hook]

What is this gibberish of post..

Muslims aren't out to genocide anyone.. Let bygones be bygones. I just see some people being paranoid for no reasons. Reminds me about the Algerian media that thinks the whole world united will attack them soon..

There has not been a single offensive Jihad by a Muslim since 1707 AD that is exactly 315 years ago the expansion era officially ended and is a far distant memory and it has come and gone. Times have changed and muslims have settled. They aren't out for disruption but only act in accordance with their right to defend their sovereign rights if there territorial boundaries were breached.. All the Muslims withhold the UN charter of territorial integrity as each states rights

not for all Muslims , some Muslims still dream of capturing new lands

 

[Hack-Hook]

he main issue is this:
Iran sided with the Armenians when they went to war with Azerbaijan.
Iran supported Christians in their war of conquest and occupation of a Muslim Country.

no actually in that war Iran stayed neutral , and it was Iran who stopped Armenia from taking Nakhichevan .
it was Iran who provided humanitarian aid to displaced Azerbaijani people of Karabakh
and it was Iran who twice tried to negotiate a peace,
all this Iran support Armenia nonsense come from that in winter turkey and Azerbaijan come to brilliant idea of another Armenian genocide with put Armenia under siege and stop any food and fuel and electricity go there and Iran refused to participate in such despicable move and scheme

 

[Hack-Hook]

We as Pakistanis should ask ourself if Iran would support India in a war of conquest and occupation, against us.
The anser is probably yes, if we are lucky they may remain neutral.

the answer is clear on what Iran do and its neither

The Iranian regime didn't support Armenia for moral or historical reasons,
They supported the Armenians conquest of clearly Azeri lands, because Iran want's a weaker Azerbaijan.

another nonsense from someone who don't knew what happened then

There are more Azeris in Iran than in Azerbaijan,They are the biggest minority in Iran and Land in Iran used to part of Azerbaijan.
This plus other history makes Iran Suspicious of Azerbaijan and vice versa.
The Azeris Support Israel against Iran for the same reason.

wrong in fact Azerbaijan used to be part of Iran not other way around , wonder what you learned of history in school
and now you want to explain their relation with Israel by Iran ? no matter the fact it's not Iran that make claim about Azerbaijan but other way around

The Pakistanis have always supported the Azeris against the Armenians, as we see it as Muslims vs Christians.

well tribal and sectarian mindset

Just so you know, If Iran came under attack from the USA/Israel or puppets,
I would support us standing with Iran as much as possible.
We need unity amongst muslim nations, in particular in times of war.

if your reason of your support is only because Iran is Muslim then I must say your reasoning is wrong

 

[tower9]

Tbh Armenians have played their cards like a dunce in the last two decades. They have a shit economy and corrupt govt while Azerbaijan has been gathering strength and wealth. Armenia should’ve traded the surrounding areas for Artsakh and achieved a permanent solution when they could. But instead they have engaged in foolishness and are now in a very weak situation which will only worsen. They will likely lose control of what they have left as well.

 

[Foinikas]

Foinikas, its literally an occupation under international law, there is no a single country(armenia included) that recognized the area as a part of Armenia.

That's one of the many problems the Soviet Union has created. See what happened in Georgia as well. Abkhazia and South Ossetia wanted to leave.

but karabakh as a whole(nagorno karabakh + surrounding districts) before the post soviet conflict was majority azeri.

The soviets didn't give anything to anyone, the soviets created nagorno karabakh, if you look at karabakh as a whole, before the gerrymandered district, it was majority azeri, so stick with the greek example above, say if the Soviets took control of greece, and they created "Nagorno Thrace"(blue area), they wouldn't be giving "Nagorno thrace" to greece, they would be creating an autonomous area inside Thrace, and the act wouldn't be viewed as "Pro Greece", b/c they are "giving" greece "Nagorno Thrace", it would be viewed as Pro Turkish, b/c they are creating an autonomous area for Turks..

When the Armenians annexed Nagorno Karabakh, they ethnically cleansed the kurds and azeris living in Kalbajar and Lachin to create their land bridge into the gerrymandered soviet district(which btw, even after the gerrymandering was still 1/3 azeri).

You have to understand that this goes way back for these people. Not just to the Cold War.

For example,we were for under Ottoman rule for about 400 years. When the revolution started in 1821,we wanted to liberate our lands. And not just lands that had majority Greeks,but lands that we considered traditionally(and were historically)Greek. By your logic,one would have said "Oh,but this area was majority Turkish,so you can't take it. It's occupation".

For the Armenians,it was finally regaining their lost areas.

So ok,Israelis build settlements in the West Bank. Let's say they eventually become majority there. Somehow Palestinians manage to retake it and drive them off. Will they be "occupying" Israeli territory then?

 

[Foinikas]

Tbh Armenians have played their cards like a dunce in the last two decades. They have a shit economy and corrupt govt while Azerbaijan has been gathering strength and wealth. Armenia should’ve traded the surrounding areas for Artsakh and achieved a permanent solution when they could. But instead they have engaged in foolishness and are now in a very weak situation which will only worsen. They will likely lose control of what they have left as well.

There's two reasons for that:

1. Azerbaijan had a bigger population and more resources than them,so they couldn't do much about their economy. Azerbaijan is probably even more corrupt than Armenia,but their huge oil reserves gave them a big boost in the 2000s,now if I'm not mistaken,the oil is almost gone,but the gas and investments,as well as help from Turkey,still keep them in a good level economically.At least compared to Armenia!
2. After the war,all governments in Armenia were heavily pro-Russian. Armenia was important to Russia,as it provided a base to them and a land corridor to Iran. So,they were more or less a kind of Russian "protectorate".

But that changed,when Pashinyan's party started one of those "spring revolutions" and took over with promises. The Russians got pissed off and let the Azeris move all the way. Pashinyan and his government were also incompetent and idiotic enough to fall into the Azeri trap.

The Russians wanted to teach them a lesson. You want to go pro-NATO and pro-EU? Ok,the Turks are here,let's see how you deal with them. And let's not forget that the Russians sold weapons to both of them.

Just like back in the late 2000s to early 2010s,they used to tell us(Greece)things like "The Turks are interested about S-400s.What about you?"

 

[Lehrasap]

This is revisionist BS, you do understand that before the Russians showed up, that gerrymandered district didn't exist right? and that it was just karabagh? and karabagh was majority azeri? they carved out a gerrymandered district inside karabagh that would have have an armenian majority, to the benifit of armenians, and then gave that district an autonomous status, something they didn't do for majority azeri areas inside Armenia.

Russia didn't "keep the status quo", it created nagorno karabagh.


here is how the population outside of those districts existed.

View attachment 901996





Buddy.. you do realize that if the Soviets/Russians don't invade Baku, then there is no nagorno karabakh and Armenia likely doesn't even have zangezur right? The Soviets/Russians did Armenia a favor in that respect.

You are telling open lies.
Nagorno-Karabakh was always an Armenian majority area.
Even when Russians came, it was at that time too heavily Armenian populated area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh
In 1822, 9 years after it passed from Iranian to Russian control, the Karabakh Khanate was dissolved and the area became part of the Elisabethpol Governorate within the Russian Empire. In 1823 the five districts corresponding roughly to modern-day Nagorno-Karabakh were 90.8% Armenian-populated.[51][52]


Your 2nd deception is, you start the history when Russian came. And I have been telling you again and again that Iran and Turkey were also COLONIAL Powers. They also tried to change the demographics by making genocides and deportation of Armenians. But you very conveniently digest all the crimes of your Muslim Turkish and Iranian Colonial rule.

 

[tower9]

There's two reasons for that:

1. Azerbaijan had a bigger population and more resources than them,so they couldn't do much about their economy. Azerbaijan is probably even more corrupt than Armenia,but their huge oil reserves gave them a big boost in the 2000s,now if I'm not mistaken,the oil is almost gone,but the gas and investments,as well as help from Turkey,still keep them in a good level economically.At least compared to Armenia!
2. After the war,all governments in Armenia were heavily pro-Russian. Armenia was important to Russia,as it provided a base to them and a land corridor to Iran. So,they were more or less a kind of Russian "protectorate".

But that changed,when Pashinyan's party started one of those "spring revolutions" and took over with promises. The Russians got pissed off and let the Azeris move all the way. Pashinyan and his government were also incompetent and idiotic enough to fall into the Azeri trap.

The Russians wanted to teach them a lesson. You want to go pro-NATO and pro-EU? Ok,the Turks are here,let's see how you deal with them. And let's not forget that the Russians sold weapons to both of them.

Just like back in the late 2000s to early 2010s,they used to tell us(Greece)things like "The Turks are interested about S-400s.What about you?"

I agree with all of the facts you laid out.

Then, I may ask, who is at fault?

Clearly the Armenians made a series of major strategic blunders that have caused them to end up at the unenviable position they are in.

1. They failed to correctly calculate the power balance between themselves and Azerbaijan. They did not become alarmed as Azerbaijan grew richer, Baku became the Dubai on the Caspian and the Azeris armed themselves to the teeth. They thought they would always have the upperhand and did not need to negotiate a permanent solution to the issue by recognizing the actual balance of power and giving up some of the lands that did not belong to Artsakh proper.

2. Russia was the security guarantor, yet they elected a Neolib shill like Pashinyan, a Soros puppet, that has only brought them complete disaster. So whose fault is that? The Armenians betrayed Russia, yet they cry out in fury and self-pity about Russia not helping them. Well, what do you expect? You expect to backstab your benefactor by siding with their enemies, but you want your benefactor to still help you? On the other hand, Aliyev was smart enough to establish cordial relations with Russia before he invaded a politically isolated Armenia.

So in conclusion, the Armenians are a bunch of self-pitying, idealistic, self defeating children. They really need to take responsibility for the pathetic situation they are in, and it is indeed, pathetic. Yet they won't. They will just cry about genocide, curse Russia and flirt with the neoliberals who are only interested in using them as a pawn and will march them to disaster. So in effect, they are pretty similar to Ukraine in many ways.

 

[Foinikas]

Clearly the Armenians made a series of major strategic blunders that have caused them to end up at the unenviable position they are in.

Mostly political,if I may say. Strategic and tactical too,but mostly political.

1. They failed to correctly calculate the power balance between themselves and Azerbaijan. They did not become alarmed as Azerbaijan grew richer, Baku became the Dubai on the Caspian and the Azeris armed themselves to the teeth. They thought they would always have the upperhand and did not need to negotiate a permanent solution to the issue by recognizing the actual balance of power and giving up some of the lands that did not belong to Artsakh proper.

Oh no,they knew that. They just couldn't do much. How much support could they get from the diaspora? They had made some good steps in the 2010s,buying modern equipment like the Iskander and very very few Tor-M2 as well as other stuff. All that before Pashinyan of course.

At this point,I have to tell you that throughout most of the small skirmishes and conflicts from the 2000s to 2019,the Armenians usually had the upper hand and showed great tactical skill.

2. Russia was the security guarantor, yet they elected a Neolib shill like Pashinyan, a Soros puppet, that has only brought them complete disaster. So whose fault is that? The Armenians betrayed Russia, yet they cry out in fury and self-pity about Russia not helping them. Well, what do you expect? You expect to backstab your benefactor by siding with their enemies, but you want your benefactor to still help you? On the other hand, Aliyev was smart enough to establish cordial relations with Russia before he invaded a politically isolated Armenia.

Hah,but here's the thing. Pashinyan was basically not "elected",but I know what you mean,he came to power anyway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Armenian_revolution

After the war,when evidence started coming out about his agenda,people demanded elections. He won the elections with massive fraud. I don't know if you've checked my thread about the whole thing,but I posted screenshots from the election fraud and meddling.

As for the Russians,yes it was a bit natural for Armenians to get angry at them,because for example...we too got angry at them and other Orthodox countries. Now,Armenians aren't Eastern Orthodox like Greeks/Serbs/Bulgarians/Romanians/Georgians/Russians etc. they are Oriental Orthodox. But still,we were shocked when we saw Azeris advancing and Russians doing nothing. Because most of us considered it an outrage,that the strongest Orthodox Christian country,which for years was friendly to Armos,did nothing to help them. And especially when videos of Azeris destroying crosses,churches,monuments,started coming out...we were all like "Oh so this is Putin,huh? This is the guy who's supposed to protect Orthodox Christians,huh?"

So in conclusion, the Armenians are a bunch of self-pitying, idealistic, self defeating children. They really need to take responsibility for the pathetic situation they are in, and it is indeed, pathetic. Yet they won't. They will just cry about genocide, curse Russia and flirt with the neoliberals who are only interested in using them as a pawn and will march them to disaster. So in effect, they are pretty similar to Ukraine in many ways.

No. I disagree. They're not like that at all. These "neoliberals" who got to power,started acting like dictators. And they have a loyal fanbase of dumb people. Like in every country,there's someone who supports the worst government no matter what happens.

Their problem is,that they were already weak,but now after the war,things are still weird. There's no clear implementation of the agreement,the Russians are sometimes on their side and sometimes on the Azeri side,Pashinyan's trying to open the country to Turkish trade,things are too weird yet. I don't know what to say. But they're not like Ukraine.

 

[omegared]

no actually in that war Iran stayed neutral , and it was Iran who stopped Armenia from taking Nakhichevan .
it was Iran who provided humanitarian aid to displaced Azerbaijani people of Karabakh
and it was Iran who twice tried to negotiate a peace,
all this Iran support Armenia nonsense come from that in winter turkey and Azerbaijan come to brilliant idea of another Armenian genocide with put Armenia under siege and stop any food and fuel and electricity go there and Iran refused to participate in such despicable move and scheme

No Iran was not neutral , it was clearly on the side of Armenia.
I followed the war and the role of Iran was clear
Your statement is nothing but Iranian propaganda.
Its all Turkeys fault and you stopped genocide and took the moral high ground. no one apart from Iranian's is buying this.
Iran supplied the Armenians with weapons and supplies during the war.

 

[tower9]

Mostly political,if I may say. Strategic and tactical too,but mostly political.

Oh no,they knew that. They just couldn't do much. How much support could they get from the diaspora? They had made some good steps in the 2010s,buying modern equipment like the Iskander and very very few Tor-M2 as well as other stuff. All that before Pashinyan of course.

At this point,I have to tell you that throughout most of the small skirmishes and conflicts from the 2000s to 2019,the Armenians usually had the upper hand and showed great tactical skill.


Hah,but here's the thing. Pashinyan was basically not "elected",but I know what you mean,he came to power anyway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Armenian_revolution

After the war,when evidence started coming out about his agenda,people demanded elections. He won the elections with massive fraud. I don't know if you've checked my thread about the whole thing,but I posted screenshots from the election fraud and meddling.

As for the Russians,yes it was a bit natural for Armenians to get angry at them,because for example...we too got angry at them and other Orthodox countries. Now,Armenians aren't Eastern Orthodox like Greeks/Serbs/Bulgarians/Romanians/Georgians/Russians etc. they are Oriental Orthodox. But still,we were shocked when we saw Azeris advancing and Russians doing nothing. Because most of us considered it an outrage,that the strongest Orthodox Christian country,which for years was friendly to Armos,did nothing to help them. And especially when videos of Azeris destroying crosses,churches,monuments,started coming out...we were all like "Oh so this is Putin,huh? This is the guy who's supposed to protect Orthodox Christians,huh?"



No. I disagree. They're not like that at all. These "neoliberals" who got to power,started acting like dictators. And they have a loyal fanbase of dumb people. Like in every country,there's someone who supports the worst government no matter what happens.

Their problem is,that they were already weak,but now after the war,things are still weird. There's no clear implementation of the agreement,the Russians are sometimes on their side and sometimes on the Azeri side,Pashinyan's trying to open the country to Turkish trade,things are too weird yet. I don't know what to say. But they're not like Ukraine.

I suppose I get frustrated because I do visit Armenian forums and there seems to be this general attitude of supporting Pashinyan, thinking the West is their friend, and hating on Russia. Clearly, these attitudes are self defeating but maybe it's because I can't read Armenian so the English speaking Armenian forums are going to naturally attract those that are Neoliberal supporters.

 

[Foinikas]

I suppose I get frustrated because I do visit Armenian forums and there seems to be this general attitude of supporting Pashinyan, thinking the West is their friend, and hating on Russia. Clearly, these attitudes are self defeating but maybe it's because I can't read Armenian so the English speaking Armenian forums are going to naturally attract those that are Neoliberal supporters.

Ah you've found pro-Pashinyan Armenians! The ones I know are against him. Most Armenians hate him,but he has his loyal fanbase.

And a funny picture from the war:

@hyperman @Primus @Tomcats

 

[Abu Shaleh Rumi]

This is the real face of your side

Since when we weren't clear about out stance? We're and always were honest...

where everything is Halal for you but Haram for others.

LOL, we aren't destabilizing any nation to steal their resources. And you don't even know wtf is halal-haram. You're just blabbering...

These are the double standards where Turkish genocide and capture of Western Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh are permissible in the name of UN resolution

Complain to UN...

but the creation of Israel is Haram despite the UN resolution.

Create your Jewish utopia elsewhere. NOT in Muslim land. Especially don't claim our 3rd holiest site.

These are the Double Standards for which the whole world has started hating you.

Since when world loved us? Our prophets own family members tried to kill him when he started preaching Islam. We don't want to be loved. Please hate us more...

I don't agree with your lame excuse that Muslims have the right to do all crimes against humanity in the name of being a GLOBAL Religious Group, while Jews and Armenians don't have equal human rights, while they are so-called ethnoreligious groups.

Hmm, your brain has defects. You took my comment out of context and vomited your Islamophobia.

BTW, we are Angels compared to Judeo-Christian lunatics. USA, Canada and Australia is standing on gigantic scale genocide of native population. Europeans are still destabilizing Africa with various assassinations and political engineering.

Don't point you finger at us. jews occupied our land and continuously killing Muslims with direct western Christians support. Blood must be repaid.

Don't care about Armenians that much...

With this menatlity, sooner or later, the Jihadists like you will turn regional issue like Nagorno-Karabakh to a CRUSADE too

We don't have to mr Islamophobe. Azeris are doing fine...

where all Christians will feel the need to unite against the so-called GLOBAL Religion Group of Muslims, in order to save themselves.

LOL, Christians are already supporting isreals killings for their holy crusade.

We are already watching the result of this Jihadist Mentality where Rohingya had to pay the price and they were driven out in Myanmar while people fear exactly this Jihadist mindset.

When time comes we will make sure their blood debt is repaid with interest. No worries.

This is the reason we see the rise in Hindutva in India, which we never saw before. People have become aware of this Jihadist mentality and they fear it, and thus ready to genocide Muslims, before they are killed and genocided by Muslims.

LOL, india was always a hindu country with deep hatred for Muslims. Hindus are mouth fodding heathens...

And good luck with your Muslim genocide adventure. Our numbers are going up so you must be very desperate...

 

[hyperman]

When the revolution started in 1821,we wanted to liberate our lands. And not just lands that had majority Greeks,but lands that we considered traditionally(and were historically)Greek. By your logic,one would have said "Oh,but this area was majority Turkish,so you can't take it.

This is literally irredentism. You can't go around ethnically cleansing places b/c your ancestor lived there allegedly centuries ago. The basis for modern international law does not allow for such things. Right of Return in the post ww2 order does not work like that.

see:

Universal Declaration of Human Rights - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Fourth Geneva Convention - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

With regards to the west bank, there are families that can point out individual houses they originate from, and individual land deeds and papers, its not some people dude saying I'm 1/8 such and such ethnicity and apparently some people who have similar ethnicity to me may have lived her 500+ years ago, therefore its legitimate for me to show up randomly pick a plot of land and ethnically cleanse it and claim it, thats not how the law works.

 

[tower9]

Ah you've found pro-Pashinyan Armenians! The ones I know are against him. Most Armenians hate him,but he has his loyal fanbase.

And a funny picture from the war:

View attachment 902028

@hyperman @Primus @Tomcats

Didn't Pashinyan just win the last election? Unless it was rigged, the Armenian people had a hand in keeping him in power.