Why do you accept Nagorno-Karabakh to be part of Azerbaijan, when you don't accept the State of Israel?

[Lehrasap]

I don't care about states, I care about right of return. don't misrepresent what I said.

We are talking what you didn't said.
We are talking what you neglected before jumping to the right to return.
It was made clear to you that you can ask for the right to return when your FIRST accept the creation of the State of Israel.

But off course, you have to dodge this basic question.

secondly I am not playing a "game of deception", the current conflict is from the 90s, which is why I linked it.

Then you have to read again the history. Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh have throughout history opposed that it was made a part of Azerbaijan by the colonial powers.

not to mention the international order as we know it with regards to international law and right of return is based on the post ww2 order and before the dissolution of the soviet union, things were largely harmonious and people lived side by side, so I didn't feel the need to mention anything, not that those areas and their demographics are all that different even before the soviet union.

It is the same if India declare that Indian Kashmir is peaceful and no Jihadi activities there, thus people are living peacefully, and thus Pakistan should stop claiming it to be a disputed area.
You want to play Double Standards, which you cannot digest.

Btw here is the earliest demographics survey done of the areas, done by the Russians in the 1800s. its not to far removed from when the russians took these lands from the Iranians. Brown is armenians, light green is azeri.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/%D0%AD%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%84%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B0_%D0%9A%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE_%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%8F_%281880_%D0%B3.%29..jpg/800px-%D0%AD%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%84%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B0_%D0%9A%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE_%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%8F_%281880_%D0%B3.%29..jpg

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Read my reply to Ssan , and how Muslims came there through multiple genocides of Armenian people for centuries, which you so proudly showed in this map.


Yes, Turks and Iranians were busy in doing genocide of Armenians for centuries. And it was only the result of that killings that Muslim population of Yerevan reached to 80%, leaving only 20% Armenians alive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yerevan

Shah Abbas I of Persia who ruled between 1588 and 1629, ordered the deportation of hundreds of thousands of Armenians including citizens from Yerevan to mainland Persia. As a consequence, Yerevan significantly lost its Armenian population who had declined to 20%, while Muslims including Persians, Turks, Kurds and Tatars gained dominance with around 80% of the city's population.


And before Shah Abbas, for centuries Amir Taimur and other Turkish kings were busy in capturing and killing Armenians. You can read this long history in this article too.

And there was no Genocide by Armenians. You have again lied here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yerevan

After 3 centuries of Iranian occupation, Yereven along with the rest of Eastern Armenia designated as the "Armenian Oblast", became part of the Russian Empire, a period that would last until the collapse of the Empire in 1917. The Russians sponsored the resettlement process of the Armenian population from Persia and Turkey. Due to the resettlement, the percentage of the Armenian population of Yerevan increased from 28% to 53.8%.

 

[Foinikas]

What heartland?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/Этнографическая_карта_Кавказского_края_(1880_г.)..jpg/800px-Этнографическая_карта_Кавказского_края_(1880_г.)..jpg

View attachment 901785


and you respond with a christians good, evil muslims bad narrative, with Greeks deciding, "Artsakh is Armenia! We Are Brothers!" pot calling kettle black.

This heartland:

and you respond with a christians good, evil muslims bad narrative, with Greeks deciding, "Artsakh is Armenia! We Are Brothers!" pot calling kettle black.

Who responded like that? Did you see me respond like that? Get your facts right.

 

[hyperman]

It was made clear to you that you can ask for the right to return when your FIRST accept the creation of the State of Israel.

Where? source? Right of Return is something that unconditional and enshrined into international law.

Then you have to read again the history. Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh have throughout history opposed that it was made a part of Azerbaijan by the colonial powers.

Buddy Armenia didn't even exist as a state until the very same "colonial powers"(Russians) collapsed and made way for successor states in the form of Azerbaijan and Armenia in the 1900s, only to be reabsorbed into the soviet union.

It is the same if India declare that Indian Kashmir is peaceful and no Jihadi activities there, thus people are living peacefully, and thus Pakistan should stop claiming it to be a disputed area.

Wut? Soviets/Russian if anything were pro Armenia. lol and yes, azeris and armenians did at one time live in a cohesive state harmoniously under the soviets. idk wtf that has to do with India or your example. it would be more like If I said at on time under British Rule people from different religions lived side by side in kashmir, which is also true. your analogy is flawed.

You out here doing some weird *** grievance politics about stuff from before the modern era like literally 500 years ago. bringing all sorts of things into it, you started the conversation regarding nagorno karabakh, I i showed you the earliest available demographics survey of the region. Do you see me expanding the conversation to all crimes commited in the area by russia? and why a hardon for muslims? why do you leave the conflicts between the Byzantines and the Armenians out of the conversation. You trying to sell some one dimensional victimhood narrative, and its not an accurate picture.

This heartland:

View attachment 901789


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Who responded like that? Did you see me respond like that? Get your facts right.

lmao you going all the way back to Tigran? and wtf is with these BS *** maps? I cited maps showing demographics surveys, and you randomly start showing maps of syria as "armenian heartland"? you understand that just b/c Tigran allegedly ruled over those lands, that the people in those colored areas aren't homogeneous, b/c those same areas have has arabs, kurds, persians, byzantines and even turks/prototurks living there. Also its very cute these maps, why don't you show any maps and information regarding the byzantines and armenians in the very same "heartland". lol

 

[hyperman]

Who responded like that? Did you see me respond like that? Get your facts right.

And who in this thread wrote "Karabagh is Azerbaijan! We are brothers!"? maybe get your facts right?

 

[Foinikas]

Buddy Armenia didn't even exist as a state until the very same "colonial powers"(Russians) collapsed and made way for successor states in the form of Azerbaijan and Armenia in the 1900s, only to be reabsorbed into the soviet union.

Armenia didn't exist as a State?

Do you know how many kingdoms and principalities the Armenians had since antiquity?

Even during Safavid rule,they had Armenian nobles installed as governors.

And who in this thread wrote "Karabagh is Azerbaijan! We are brothers!"? maybe get your facts right?

Do you know how many Muslims I've seen online,here and on youtube and on Facebook,saying nonsense like "Qarabagh is Azeri land,they just took it back" and things like that? Heck,even Pakistanis.

lmao you going all the way back to Tigran? and wtf is with these BS *** maps? I cited maps showing demographics surveys, and you randomly start showing maps of syria as "armenian heartland"? you understand that just b/c Tigran allegedly ruled over those lands, that the people in those colored areas aren't homogeneous, b/c those same areas have has arabs, kurds, persians, byzantines and even turks/prototurks living there. Also its very cute these maps, why don't you show any maps and information regarding the byzantines and armenians in the very same "heartland". lol

I showed you maps from diffferent time periods and you're stuck with "Tigran". Tigran's empire was the largest expansion in Armenian history. It's not the point,as you saw on other maps,the Armenian heartland always remained that area in the Caucasus and around it,extending almost to Lake Van.

But instead of thinking,you just saw the map that contains ALL the territorial expansion of Armenia through the ages...and instead of AGAIN thinking and checking the dates and States contained on that map....you went full retard.

 

[hyperman]

Armenia didn't exist as a State?

yes, in times of antiquity not with regards to modern times. Amenians haven't been sovereign for centuries.

Even during Safavid rule,they had Armenian nobles installed as governors.

local appointed governors have always existed to mange affairs of local population in all those empires, thats not soverignty.

Do you know how many Muslims I've seen online,here and on youtube and on Facebook,saying nonsense like "Qarabagh is Azeri land,they just took it back" and things like that? Heck,even Pakistanis.

oh so now we are stretching it go other places like youtube. lol, so why did you get upset when I said what I said initially with the whole "did I say that" BS?

I showed you maps from diffferent time periods

yes, and in all those maps, none of the areas were ever homogenous. Persians and Kurds and other people show similar overlapping maps, there is no "exclusivity" of ethnic homelands here. but again, I'm not sure wtf this has to do with what I cited, which was demographics maps from the russian empire which are the earliest of demographics surveys of the region. I'm not sure what you are arguing exactly.

 

[KingMamba]

False equivalence. One has nothing to do with the other.

 

[Abu Shaleh Rumi]

Armenians are pure idiots. First they won Nagorno Karabakh and committed ethnic cleansing on Azeris. Then, they had a good long 30 years time to make a give and take deal with Azerbaijan and have a formal border with parts of Nagorno Karabakh. But, they were too high on their jew like superiority complex. Azerbaijan became stronger than Armenia very recently.

Not a fan of isreals friend Azerbaijan. But, Armenians deserve this bamboo shoved into their arse by the Azeris...

 

[Foinikas]

oh so now we are stretching it go other places like youtube. lol, so why did you get upset when I said what I said initially with the whole "did I say that" BS?

Now we are stretching it? I mentioned this forum too. Do you selectively see what you want and ignore the rest?

yes, in times of antiquity not with regards to modern times. Amenians haven't been sovereign for centuries.

Armenians have lived in those lands,what is now Armenia,NKR and the areas around them,continuously for thousands of years. That constitutes as Armenian homeland.

yes, and in all those maps, none of the areas were ever homogenous. Persians and Kurds and other people show similar overlapping maps, there is no "exclusivity" of ethnic homelands here. but again, I'm not sure wtf this has to do with what I cited, which was demographics maps from the russian empire which are the earliest of demographics surveys of the region. I'm not sure what you are arguing exactly.

The core part of these kingdoms was populated by Armenians. Maybe some Georgians and other people related to them. Do you understand what I'm saying? It's like telling me Fars province in Iran,isn't Persian,because Iran is not a homogenous country.

You're stuck with the Russian Empire.

 

[Ssan]

It is pure evil from you that you jumped to 18th century Russian Rule and forgot what Turks and Iranians did to Armenia for centuries.

You mean late 19th century as in mid 1800s. What was historically the caucuses have been part of the Muslim heartland since Abbasid times.

Arabs in the Caucasus - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Yes, Turks and Iranians were busy in doing genocide of Armenians for centuries. And it was only the result of that killings that Muslim population of Yerevan reached to 80%, leaving only 20% Armenians alive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yerevan

Shah Abbas I of Persia who ruled between 1588 and 1629, ordered the deportation of hundreds of thousands of Armenians including citizens from Yerevan to mainland Persia. As a consequence, Yerevan significantly lost its Armenian population who had declined to 20%, while Muslims including Persians, Turks, Kurds and Tatars gained dominance with around 80% of the city's population.

Let me ask you a simple question- the Russians took Yerevan in the mid 1800s. Was it 20% at that time as you indicate in your next paragraph or 20% after shah Abbas deported people? You want to tell me that Shah Abbas would deport thousands of Armenians to Persia and leave 20% still. Why not take it to zero like the Armenians did in the 20th century? Armenia seems to have been successful in doing so within 70 years and discounting Soviet rule, even faster.

You also want to talk about the 700 years prior to this when Armenia was under Muslim rule too?

And before Shah Abbas, for centuries Amir Taimur and other Turkish kings were busy in capturing and killing Armenians. You can read this long history in this article too.

And there was no Genocide by Armenians. You have again lied here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yerevan

After 3 centuries of Iranian occupation, Yereven along with the rest of Eastern Armenia designated as the "Armenian Oblast", became part of the Russian Empire, a period that would last until the collapse of the Empire in 1917. The Russians sponsored the resettlement process of the Armenian population from Persia and Turkey. Due to the resettlement, the percentage of the Armenian population of Yerevan increased from 28% to 53.8%.

How many Muslims percentage wise are part of Armenia. Within 70 years or so, this number went from 80% to 0%. But you have trouble believing that after 600 so years of muslim rule, local Armenians wouldn’t convert to Islam slowly leading to 80% Muslim and 20% Christian population?

Now we are stretching it? I mentioned this forum too. Do you selectively see what you want and ignore the rest?


Armenians have lived in those lands,what is now Armenia,NKR and the areas around them,continuously for thousands of years. That constitutes as Armenian homeland.


The core part of these kingdoms was populated by Armenians. Maybe some Georgians and other people related to them. Do you understand what I'm saying? It's like telling me Fars province in Iran,isn't Persian,because Iran is not a homogenous country.

You're stuck with the Russian Empire.

Muslims have also lived in that area for thousands of years too. Since Abbasid times.

 

[Foinikas]

Armenians are pure idiots. First they won Nagorno Karabakh and committed ethnic cleansing on Azeris.

Before you talk about "ethnic cleansing",check this out:

Then, they had a good long 30 years time to make a give and take deal with Azerbaijan and have a formal border with parts of Nagorno Karabakh. But, they were too high on their jew like superiority complex. Azerbaijan became stronger than Armenia very recently.

"Jew-like superiority complex" ? They don't have anything like that,unless you consider Azeris the same and Pakistanis the same and Indians the same. If Pakistan took back all of Kashmir after so long,would they be eager to give it back? Imagine Palestinians taking uniting the West Bank and Gaza after all these decades. Would they give it back so easily?

Things weren't so easy. Ever since the end of the war,there had been skirmishes and tensions often. The Russians kept them apart and sold weapons to both. Of course Azerbaijan had more money,while Armenia had a tiny population and no oil and gas.

 

[Foinikas]

Muslims have also lived in that area for thousands of years too. Since Abbasid times.

Hijra date is 622 A.D.

The Abbasid Caliphate was founded in 750 A.D.

That's not "thousands of years"

 

[Ssan]

Hijra date is 622 A.D.

The Abbasid Caliphate was founded in 750 A.D.

That's not "thousands of years"

Okay, maybe not plural but a thousand years, order of. My point stands.

Okay, maybe not plural but a thousand years, order of. My point stands.

The point is this Foinikas. If the Arabs/Turks/persians were so hellbent on eliminating the Armenians, you have to explain why they left a full 20% of Armenia as Christian when the Russians took it in mid 1800s. And then explain how the 80% Muslim population went down to 0% in a matter of a century or so.

 

[Foinikas]

Okay, maybe not plural but a thousand years, order of. My point stands.

Just because the Abbasids conquered Armenia,doesn't mean there were mass migrations or mass islamizations there. Your point doesn't stand. What's your origin? I want to give you an example.

The point is this Foinikas. If the Arabs/Turks/persians were so hellbent on eliminating the Armenians, you have to explain why they left a full 20% of Armenia as Christian when the Russians took it in mid 1800s. And then explain how the 80% Muslim population went down to 0% in a matter of a century or so.

I didn't say Persians and Arabs tried to eliminate them. It wasn't me.

The Ottomans and later Young Turks did try and largely succeeded,but that was from the early 20th century onwards.

 

[Abu Shaleh Rumi]

Before you talk about "ethnic cleansing",check this out:

I know Armenians are Azeris are blood enemies. But, my timeline is after the fall of Soviet union.

"Jew-like superiority complex" ?

Yep. Armenians though they will never lose to Azeris. Don't you know how Armenian civilians reacted to Russia brokered peace deal?

And Armenians always try to gain sympathy by bringing up Armenian Genocide everywhere. Just like jews...

If Pakistan took back all of Kashmir after so long,would they be eager to give it back? Imagine Palestinians taking uniting the West Bank and Gaza after all these decades. Would they give it back so easily?

Not comparable man, Nagorno Karabakh issue, Palestine issue, Kashmir issue and Rhingya issue isn't comparable with each other.

Azerbaijan had more money,while Armenia had a tiny population and no oil and gas.

Yep. that why Armenians should have pursued a give and take deal with Azerbaijan with international assistance. Armenians should have known that they can't outspend or equally spend on defence purchases with energy rich Azerbaijan in the long run to maintain status quo of Nagorno Karabakh.

Armenian superiority complex impacted their common sense...