Why did Pakistanis decided to keep Thier pre-islamic sirnames while Muslims in rest of the South Asia didn't?

[-blitzkrieg-]

shit- how many different kinda Mongols dissented on our region-funny and depressing

Kushan and Turk shahi kingdoms are two of the known pre-islamic empires of mongolid descent that ruled our region.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Only hazaras are distinguished with their mongoloid features and they moved in from Afghanistan in 19th century. Im talking about punjab mughals. Mughal empire was long gone by 1857 from Pakistan.

Mughal don’t have mongolid features anymore. Only Mongolian spot. People with central Asian ancestry have them. 20% to 30% new born in Turkish city of Izmir are reported to have them.

 

[Genghis khan1]

There are whole clans and neighborhood in Azad Kashmir and Islamabad/ Pindi region of people with Mughal ancestry. Baig, chugtai, khans, so on and so forth. Some of them move their even before 1857 war of independence.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

@Sainthood 101 that is a fiction. tribes and clans also exist in India, they are not seprate from caste. it's the same Jatts, Gujjars etc. castes are organised in clans, they're not seprate things. the Sindhis in India also have caste, am I supposed to believe it magically doesn't exist in the original Sindh? at best they've disguised it under layers and the same discrimination against non-dominant "clans and tribes" goes on.

Jatts and Gujjars are tribes, not castes. The portion of Jatts, Gujjars, etc... that have been integrated into mainstream Hinduism are the only ones that follow a caste system.

Sindhis as well, like the rest of Pakistan are divided into Biradaris (tribes) and Kammis (guilds).

What Sindhi castes are you talking about?

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Never heard anyone faking to be Mughal. May be in India . Thing about Mughals is that you can easily distinguish them because of their light skin color and different facial outlook. It’s not uncommon for them to born with mongol birth mark.

After the failure of 1857 war of Independence, Mughals families
were the prime target and were hunted down by British and their local collaborators. Many end up in the mountains of Kashmir other just scattered wherever they can find refuge.

Mughal nobility remained in Hindustan (UP/Delhi). Currently the Mughal dynasty is survived through the children (who now live in slums) of Bedar Bakht, The great Grandson of Bahadur Shah II. If any Mughal had to have fled, it would have been to Rajputana (mostly modern-day Rajasthan) where strong marital ties with prominent Hindu Rajput chiefs would have offered them refuge.

The last place they would have fled to would have been towards the West (Punjab and Kashmir) where they had no support and were even despised by both Muslims and non-Muslims.

Also we have pictures and depictions of such Mughal nobility and they looked no different from average Indians.

The only way that I can think of Mughals ending up in AJK around 1857 is when the fighting men of Punjab (including AJK) and Pakhtunkhwa eagerly joined the British in crushing the rebellion, where they played a crucial role during the siege of Delhi, bringing back much loot and Hindustani women, some of whom may have been Mughals.

It’s not uncommon for them to born with mongol birth mark.

Only Mongolian spot

A Mongolian origin for the "Mongolian birth mark" has long been refuted and has nothing to do with Mongols.

According to “The Amazing Language of Medicine: Understanding Medical Terms and Their Backstories“, the term was actually coined by German anthropologist Erwin Baltz. In 1883, he was living in Japan with his Japanese wife and their two children, serving as physician to Emperor Meiji and the Imperial household. When he found the spots on the babies who were under his care, he decided to call them “Mongolian Spots”, referring to a now-outdated take on race which classified Asians as “Mongoloids” popularized by Johann Blumenbach.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Kushan and Turk shahi kingdoms are two of the known pre-islamic empires of mongolid descent that ruled our region.

Kushans were not Turkic or "Mongolid".

They were Indo-European, likely Tocharian.

 

[Maula Jatt]

Mughal nobility remained in Hindustan (UP/Delhi). Currently the Mughal dynasty is survived through the children (who now live in slums) of Bedar Bakht, The great Grandson of Bahadur Shah II. If any Mughal had to have fled, it would have been to Rajputana (mostly modern-day Rajasthan) where strong marital ties with prominent Hindu Rajput chiefs would have offered them refuge.

The last place they would have fled to would have been towards the West (Punjab and Kashmir) where they had no support and were even despised by both Muslims and non-Muslims.

Also we have pictures and depictions of such Mughal nobility and they looked no different from average Indians.

The only way that I can think of Mughals ending up in AJK around 1857 is when the fighting men of Punjab (including AJK) and Pakhtunkhwa eagerly joined the British in crushing the rebellion, where they played a crucial role during the siege of Delhi, bringing back much loot and Hindustani women, some of whom may have been Mughals.




A Mongolian origin for the "Mongolian birth mark" has long been refuted and has nothing to do with Mongols.

According to “The Amazing Language of Medicine: Understanding Medical Terms and Their Backstories“, the term was actually coined by German anthropologist Erwin Baltz. In 1883, he was living in Japan with his Japanese wife and their two children, serving as physician to Emperor Meiji and the Imperial household. When he found the spots on the babies who were under his care, he decided to call them “Mongolian Spots”, referring to a now-outdated take on race which classified Asians as “Mongoloids” popularized by Johann Blumenbach.

Genghis khan1 pashtuns faught against mughals, brutal insurgencies and battles

mughals commited atrocities against sikhs and they pretty much religiously dislike mughals
If you read legends or heroic figures of muslim Punjabi history a bunch of their heroes were heroes because they faught against mughals/Delhi ( admittedly chunk of mughal army was Punjabi but that's probably because of gold, money, it being more of a profession)

All these circumstances mean I doubt this region would have been thier refuge as people were not as friendly to em compared to other regions

 

[AgnosticIndian]

Jatts and Gujjars are tribes, not castes. The portion of Jatts, Gujjars, etc... that have been integrated into mainstream Hinduism are the only ones that follow a caste system.

that's just... copium. I'm supposed to believe the magical 1947 border just happened to be where Jatts decided to not follow the caste system? they follow the same caste system. the Jatts in India are the same Jatts in Pakistan. do these Jatts intermarry to non-Jatts? if not, there's your proof they follow the same caste system.

Sindhis as well, like the rest of Pakistan are divided into Biradaris (tribes) and Kammis (guilds).

a Birdari is just a code for caste usually. they often appear together—Jat-Biradari (caste-clan). I'm talking about Sindhi Hindus.

 

[-blitzkrieg-]

Kushans were not Turkic or "Mongolid".

They were Indo-European, likely Tocharian.

we were talking about mongoloid features.
All turkic people have Mongoloid featurs.
As for kushans they lived in gansu and mixed.. with their proto turkic neighbors and had Mongoloid features..it doesnt matter where their origin was really or what there language was.

 

[Al_Muhannad]

Never heard anyone faking to be Mughal. May be in India . Thing about Mughals is that you can easily distinguish them because of their light skin color and different facial outlook. It’s not uncommon for them to born with mongol birth mark.

After the failure of 1857 war of Independence, Mughals families
were the prime target and were hunted down by British and their local collaborators. Many end up in the mountains of Kashmir other just scattered wherever they can find refuge.

The children of Khan declared to be traitors to their very own people.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

that's just... copium. I'm supposed to believe the magical 1947 border just happened to be where Jatts decided to not follow the caste system?

Never said that, I only stated that the handful of Jatts that do in fact follow the caste system are those that have been integrated into mainstream Hinduism. Overwhelmingly however, Jatts do not follow the caste system regardless of which side of the border they are on.

If Jatts were acceptant of the caste system, they would recognize Brahmins as above them. Tell me, have you ever met a Jatt that would accept that? There's a reason why Bahman (Punjabi for 'Brahmin') is a derogative term and that whatever Brahmins remain in East Punjab are often looked down upon by the Jatts.

This excerpt from the British era sums up very well what the people of the Indus region thought of the "caste system":

do these Jatts intermarry to non-Jatts? if not, there's your proof they follow the same caste system.

What you're describing is endogamy and it is a very common practice in many cultures. Being endogamous does not mean that you belong to a caste system.

Also, though preferring to marry within their own tribe, clan or family; it is not uncommon for members of different Biradaris to intermarry.

a Birdari is just a code for caste usually. they often appear together—Jat-Biradari (caste-clan). I'm talking about Sindhi Hindus.

I think the issue here is that you are confusing tribal and caste systems with each other.

Biradaris are often mistakenly referred to as "castes". This is because when the British invaded modern-day India during the 1750's, they integrated the caste system into the state institution. When they invaded and conquered modern-day Punjab and Pakistan in the 1840's, they enforced this system on the newly conquered territories. People had to register their "castes" which would influence everything from employment preference to legal rights.

British agents that were more familiar with the culture and society of the newly annexed regions constantly pointed out how the people followed a different social structure.

admittedly chunk of mughal army was Punjabi

Punjabi proportion in the Mughal nobility and army was extremely minimal.

 

[AgnosticIndian]

If Jatts were acceptant of the caste system, they would recognize Brahmins as above them.

that's not how caste system works, you have a misconception. few people will recognize Brahmins as "above" them—the main point of caste system is looking down upon others. Bahman is not a slur one usually calls others with derogatory connonations, that's reserved for other lower castes—like Chuhras, and many other famous ones.

This excerpt from the British era sums up very well what the people of the Indus region thought of the "caste system":

this is common for many regions where Brahmins don't have a large population, nothing to do with "Indus region".

What you're describing is endogamy and it is a very common practice in many cultures. Being endogamous does not mean that you belong to a caste system.

that's exactly what a caste system is—enforced endogamy. if a Jatt Muslims daughter wants to marry a pious Muslim of a lower caste, will he allow that considering his piety or will she more likely be disgraced if not honour killed?

British agents that were more familiar with the culture and society of the newly annexed regions constantly pointed out how the people followed a different social structure.

the excerpt isn't saying that they had different social organisation—i.e. not caste system. obviously "social customs" differ from place to place, specially when they have different religious majorities, but I doubt anyone before 1947, or even upto 1970 would have suggested the areas of Pakistan don't have caste system, and people there don't look down upon "lower castes"—the essence of caste system.

I think the issue here is that you are confusing tribal and caste systems with each other.

Biradaris are often mistakenly referred to as "castes". This is because when the British invaded modern-day India during the 1750's, they integrated the caste system into the state institution.

no, I'm not confusing anything. many Indian castes were tribes—you are in confusion for thinking them to mutually exclusive. Jatts, Gurjjars, and many other were "tribes" and "clans" that grew into endogamic "castes" that looked down upon lower castes.

for your theory to make sense, they would to be "tribes" since all the way back. surely when Sindh and Punjab were Hindu, they had castes. and surely they didn't simply vanish into thin air as soon as Islam came, and some totally different tribal system came into being. those same castes, which you're calling "tribes", always were there through Islamisation, and never went away.

 

[Madni Bappa]

Why did Pakistanis decided to keep Thier pre-islamic surnames while largely Muslims in rest of South Asia didn't?

You rarely see Muslims of Bangladesh, India even Sri Lanka with Thier pre Islamic sir names
All of them pretty much use first name as last or minority use foreign name
and are generally aggressively against this whole buisness of clans/caste (we are agressivelly against this too)/tribes

While here you seem to find people using Thier pre isalmic sir names

It's an interesting phenomenon on how eventhough we are all Muslims of SC but we devaloped in a different way compared to other Muslims of south Asia

How did it happen? Why did Muslims in rest of the south Asia just did a complete 180 degree turn?

Why didn't we followed Thier example?


@Talwar e Pakistan , @Joe Shearer ,@Indus Pakistan ,@DrJekyll ,@Novus ordu seclorum ,@Bilal9

There is no concept of sir names or family names in Islam.

And we south asians don't follow Arabic naming conventions based on paternal lineage and tribe.

So we have our own independent muslim naming conventions with no set rules

 

[Genghis khan1]

Mughal nobility remained in Hindustan (UP/Delhi). Currently the Mughal dynasty is survived through the children (who now live in slums) of Bedar Bakht, The great Grandson of Bahadur Shah II. If any Mughal had to have fled, it would have been to Rajputana (mostly modern-day Rajasthan) where strong marital ties with prominent Hindu Rajput chiefs would have offered them refuge.

The last place they would have fled to would have been towards the West (Punjab and Kashmir) where they had no support and were even despised by both Muslims and non-Muslims.

Also we have pictures and depictions of such Mughal nobility and they looked no different from average Indians.

The only way that I can think of Mughals ending up in AJK around 1857 is when the fighting men of Punjab (including AJK) and Pakhtunkhwa eagerly joined the British in crushing the rebellion, where they played a crucial role during the siege of Delhi, bringing back much loot and Hindustani women, some of whom may have been Mughals.




A Mongolian origin for the "Mongolian birth mark" has long been refuted and has nothing to do with Mongols.

According to “The Amazing Language of Medicine: Understanding Medical Terms and Their Backstories“, the term was actually coined by German anthropologist Erwin Baltz. In 1883, he was living in Japan with his Japanese wife and their two children, serving as physician to Emperor Meiji and the Imperial household. When he found the spots on the babies who were under his care, he decided to call them “Mongolian Spots”, referring to a now-outdated take on race which classified Asians as “Mongoloids” popularized by Johann Blumenbach.

Every Mughal is a Mughal regardless of if he was a skilled bow maker for the Army or the Kings sitting in Delhi. Not everyone, every clan, every subgroup in Mughal was in Delhi. Like I said before there were Mughal families that establish themselves in Kashmir way before 1857. Today their demographic group (Maldiyal) is one of the largest along with sadizai clan in Kashmir. Similarly you will find people all across Pakistan even in mahajir community authentically claiming to be some sub group of Mughal.

So just because ottoman ruling slight is gone doesn’t mean Turkish people ceases to exist.

 

[Genghis khan1]

A Mongolian origin for the "Mongolian birth mark" has long been refuted and has nothing to do with Mongols.

Never said it’s has to do with mongols. Although Mughal’s are referred to Turkco Mongol but in reality they are more closely related to another tribe called Tatars except Tamerlane mother was direct descended of Genghis Khan.