Why are we accusing the COAS?

[SQ8]

wrong assessment about the mood of common people on street, might be because you are not in country therefore could not rightly gauge it, just as an example I am going to post a tweet of video below in which an old age lady from Islamabad saying in clear terms "Ne Fooj Hamari hai", this thing indicates people have started to disown army within few hours and this thing is NOT coming from an emotional teenage but a mature lady from Islamabad

Start listing from 0:39 ownwards

https://twitter.com/x/status/1513295016801849351

I was purposely pointing at the sentiments trying to link the current COAS to the military. Such sentiments which were being seen in posts and on social media from some circles should be discouraged

 

[The Terminator]

kindly dont involve India in your political battles.
Even Imran khan is a big proponent of riyasat e India now. Has been praising us non stop now.

Lol in my whole post I never named your beloved india there nor it was anywhere even in the context of my entire post. Why you feel so special that we would discuss you in each and every post of our own matters.

And even if I somehow had named any country including yours in any of the internal affairs discussion in PDF (Pakistani) forum, who are you to interrupt and stop me from that? That's hilarious

And by the way why are you even here in our internal debate of internal matters. I haven't gone to any Bharat r@t $hit forum to interfere in your highly intellectual debates on your internal matters

 

[HRK]

I was purposely pointing at the sentiments trying to link the current COAS to the military. Such sentiments which were being seen in posts and on social media from some circles should be discouraged

agreed

 

[The Terminator]

I was purposely pointing at the sentiments trying to link the current COAS to the military. Such sentiments which were being seen in posts and on social media from some circles should be discouraged

"Trying to link the current COAS to the military" ?? I am really sorry to say that What kind of philosophical, mythical mental m@$turb@tion is it! Isn't the COAS stands for the Chief Of Army Staff? Doesn't he control all the subsets of Pakistan Army? Isn't he the face and the highest level representative of the PAK Army? Doesn't he wear PAK Army uniform? Doesn't the whole Army acts upon his orders? Does the Army Chief live in WAPDA colony separate from all other Army? IS COAS office in blue area far away from any military installations? Or does he wear the cap of Rescue 1122 firefighters?

Any PM, CM etc is the head of his Govt. Nobody says don't try to link our PM/CM with our Govt. Only blame him for all the wrong reasons but don't blame the Govt or don't blame the whole party which has membership of millions all across the country and hundreds of assembly seats all across the country. The organization and organizational head are one integral part of an organization. How can you differentiate between one and the other?

Just ask DG ISPR this question. And I hope he would answer that COAS is the Army, he is our Chief and we are all united under his command as one monolithic organization. And if he acknowledges that yes COAS and PAK Army are 2 different entities then I would have reason to believe in your statement.

 

[HRK]

"Trying to link the current COAS to the military" ?? I am really sorry to say that What kind of philosophical, mythical mental m@$turb@tion is it! Isn't the COAS stands for the Chief Of Army Staff? Doesn't he control all the subsets of Pakistan Army? Isn't he the face and the highest level representative of the PAK Army? Doesn't he wear PAK Army uniform? Doesn't the whole Army acts upon his orders? Does the Army Chief live in WAPDA colony separate from all other Army? IS COAS office in blue area far away from any military installations? Or does he wear the cap of Rescue 1122 firefighters?

Any PM, CM etc is the head of his Govt. Nobody says don't try to link our PM/CM with our Govt. Only blame him for all the wrong reasons but don't blame the Govt or don't blame the whole party which has membership of millions all across the country and hundreds of assembly seats all across the country. The organization and organizational head are one integral part of an organization. How can you differentiate between one and the other?

Just ask DG ISPR this question. And I hope he would answer that COAS is the Army, he is our Chief and we are all united under his command as one monolithic organization. And if he acknowledges that yes COAS and PAK Army are 2 different entities then I would have reason to believe in your statement.

Bhai this whole fiasco is created by Bajwa and 3-4 of his cronies, not by whole institution. This is the reason we have to keep this thing in mind. its Bajwa who is the Traitor & willing to do damage to the Nation "NOT the Army as Institution"

 

[SQ8]

"Trying to link the current COAS to the military" ?? I am really sorry to say that What kind of philosophical, mythical mental m@$turb@tion is it! Isn't the COAS stands for the Chief Of Army Staff? Doesn't he control all the subsets of Pakistan Army? Isn't he the face and the highest level representative of the PAK Army? Doesn't he wear PAK Army uniform? Doesn't the whole Army acts upon his orders? Does the Army Chief live in WAPDA colony separate from all other Army? IS COAS office in blue area far away from any military installations? Or does he wear the cap of Rescue 1122 firefighters?

Any PM, CM etc is the head of his Govt. Nobody says don't try to link our PM/CM with our Govt. Only blame him for all the wrong reasons but don't blame the Govt or don't blame the whole party which has membership of millions all across the country and hundreds of assembly seats all across the country. The organization and organizational head are one integral part of an organization. How can you differentiate between one and the other?

Just ask DG ISPR this question. And I hope he would answer that COAS is the Army, he is our Chief and we are all united under his command as one monolithic organization. And if he acknowledges that yes COAS and PAK Army are 2 different entities then I would have reason to believe in your statement.

Have you ever served in a military environment? Or have a lived in one? Or are aware of the culture of a military regardless of which country it belongs to?

Let me give you an example: the current Sec Def of the US when in command wasn’t liked by MANY in the US ranks. He wasn’t liked even by many US right wingers and isn’t to this day. Privately, those US serving and veterans don’t have nice things to say about him but still serve under him today as a higher chain of command as Sec Def.
Their training from the start of their Oath till the end means that while they have the flexibility of disagreement they will OBEY the order and the chain of command regardless. Because if even ONE of them dissents the command then the entire CHAIN OF COMMAND could break down by example. The division commander could disobey his corps commander, brigade commander could disobey his division command or the NCO staff sergant and troops can disobey their officer commanding.

With that, the whole idea of a coordinated unit breaks down and your Army isn’t an Army, its a bunch of warlord militias or worse.
The only historical example where disobedience has been seen as meritorious in ANY military is when direct unlawful orders that went contradictory to the code of conduct or compromised the core creed of protecting the nation were given. Yet, the Mai Lai massacres happened and coming back to Pakistan the revenge attacks on Bengali civilians happened as well.

However, two examples of when setting a trend of defying chain of command led to disasters: Battle of Uhud and infighting among the Pakistani forces heading for Srinagar in 48’.

The military is not a democracy, the Pakistani military isn’t one man or even twenty that keep tabs on everything the other does. The COAS may or may not be complicit in what has transpired recently but he did not order troops to open fire on protestors - he did not order martial law yet or otherwise.
Even if he did, it doesn’t mean that troops sitting on the LoC will suddenly abandon their posts because they don’t like this COAS nor will it mean 111 Corps jawan will disobey orders to occupy a TV station because if he is capable of disobeying those orders then he will disobey orders to attack a machine gun nest as well.

Understand what a military is first before going on raving rant as to why the COAS is the military and represents the thoughts and ideals of all of them and is considered immortal by them(or not).

Finally, what if the COAS represents all the military? In that case everyone of the military - which means 450k zombie trained fighting machines equipped with better weapons than ANYONE else in Pakistan including the nuclear weapons feel that it was ok for Imran Khan to go and Sharif & Zardari to come in and that America is the boss then you have problems much bigger than the COAS.

Essentially you can the declare that you want to engage in open warfare against them and create a peoples struggle but bear in mind; you will then also need to organize a similar force with similar or better training while destroying in the process the very country you are claiming to protect.

 

[The Terminator]

Can someone confirm this news?

 

[HRK]

View attachment 833209

Can someone confirm this news?

Fake news

 

[Saifullah]

Oddly enough, the other “culprits” in the eyes of the public : namely the PML(N) staffed ECP and Judiciary have been conscientiously forgotten

Oddly enough, the courts were ordered to open in the night right away for an oddly simple request by someone that the Imran Khan cannot order the change in certain commanders. Oddly enough our history tells us all the journalists, judges, bureaucrats etc were picked up or locked up with their families if they didn't accept the orders.

So oddly enough there has been a conscious effort to make people believe that nothing happened on the night of NCV and oddly enough we have a history of sellouts in form of Army officers in Pakistan, especially for America.

 

[The Terminator]

Have you ever served in a military environment? Or have a lived in one? Or are aware of the culture of a military regardless of which country it belongs to?

Let me give you an example: the current Sec Def of the US when in command wasn’t liked by MANY in the US ranks. He wasn’t liked even by many US right wingers and isn’t to this day. Privately, those US serving and veterans don’t have nice things to say about him but still serve under him today as a higher chain of command as Sec Def.
Their training from the start of their Oath till the end means that while they have the flexibility of disagreement they will OBEY the order and the chain of command regardless. Because if even ONE of them dissents the command then the entire CHAIN OF COMMAND could break down by example. The division commander could disobey his corps commander, brigade commander could disobey his division command or the NCO staff sergant and troops can disobey their officer commanding.

With that, the whole idea of a coordinated unit breaks down and your Army isn’t an Army, its a bunch of warlord militias or worse.
The only historical example where disobedience has been seen as meritorious in ANY military is when direct unlawful orders that went contradictory to the code of conduct or compromised the core creed of protecting the nation were given. Yet, the Mai Lai massacres happened and coming back to Pakistan the revenge attacks on Bengali civilians happened as well.

However, two examples of when setting a trend of defying chain of command led to disasters: Battle of Uhud and infighting among the Pakistani forces heading for Srinagar in 48’.

The military is not a democracy, the Pakistani military isn’t one man or even twenty that keep tabs on everything the other does. The COAS may or may not be complicit in what has transpired recently but he did not order troops to open fire on protestors - he did not order martial law yet or otherwise.
Even if he did, it doesn’t mean that troops sitting on the LoC will suddenly abandon their posts because they don’t like this COAS nor will it mean 111 Corps jawan will disobey orders to occupy a TV station because if he is capable of disobeying those orders then he will disobey orders to attack a machine gun nest as well.

Understand what a military is first before going on raving rant as to why the COAS is the military and represents the thoughts and ideals of all of them and is considered immortal by them(or not).

Finally, what if the COAS represents all the military? In that case everyone of the military - which means 450k zombie trained fighting machines equipped with better weapons than ANYONE else in Pakistan including the nuclear weapons feel that it was ok for Imran Khan to go and Sharif & Zardari to come in and that America is the boss then you have problems much bigger than the COAS.

Essentially you can the declare that you want to engage in open warfare against them and create a peoples struggle but bear in mind; you will then also need to organize a similar force with similar or better training while destroying in the process the very country you are claiming to protect.

I have seen it all and know what are you talking about. There are commissioned officer then their NCOs and there are some top level officers like Generals.

The NCOs mostly are not that much well educated, well informed, don't have time or appetite to rationally think what's going on around them. They live pay check to pay check and have enough domestic issues to look for that they mostly can't afford the luxury to discuss what's going on and ideas about what should be done. They can be regarded as typical Pakistanis from the 20th century. And then they are disciplined to follow the order to it's T. And are hardwired so much so that they just want to carry out their commander's order to defend his nation and get martyrdom howsoever. They are as close to your zombies as it can get. That's why I consider PAK Army to be too much disciplined to be comfortable with. Usual training propaganda also plays a role into it.

Then there comes fresh commissioned officers (including relatively junior officers apart from the top brass), well educated, well groomed, well taken care of and they can discuss the ideas the strategies on the bigger picture as they have the role of command and are or will be the leaders in the future. They can be described as the middle class of the military. Then there's the top military brass which we talk a lot about, who have relative authority and some autonomy of their own as long as it doesn't collide with their bosses. It's where all the dirty politics are played internally and externally in civil setup too. And they are the ones in the position of calling shots.

This Army organizational (chain of command hierarchical) setup is also inspired in various sister civilian organizations of the military. Like for example PAEC is a big hybrid (between civil, military) organization with oversight from various security and intelligence entities overlapping each other. But even civilians there feel the pressure of that chain of command that essentially turn into an oppressive or abusive some times. Even some well off, well paid educated civilians there turn into "zombies" and loose the capability of critical thinking about what's going on, can't raise their voice for their just rights etc. in fear of their 2,3 ranks higher men could easily make their lives a living hell if somehow spooked. So either military or its sister organizations they are small standalone dictatorships in their own right.

But the issue is the philosophy of logic, rule of law and our religion teaches us that obey all the orders of the boss but don't obey the orders that are outright unlawful, murderous and sinful of the highest grade. But even them there quite a few and far between the men who have balls and guts to listen to their law or God deny the unjust orders. It usually doesn't happen which I think should happen a lot more than that. Because as a human being you have been given a heart,.and brain and sense to think and act accordingly. Because it's the responsibility of every human being to think and then act upon it responsibly.

The men who ordered to slaughter the caravan of Hazrat Imam Hussain are equally sinful as the men who carried out those orders. Both would burn in hell. The only difference is, the ones who issued orders would be a few more steps deeper into the dark hell than the others.

So as long as you carry out the orders, you are one of them and their collaborators, their enabling hand. If you are somewhat resisting then it's good for you but the public would only know of that or acknowledge that when some significant practical outcome comes out of that struggle, so you can clearly be differentiated from the others in the same uniform. They do it while wearing the uniform and on behalf of the Army itself.

 

[Darth.Vad3r]

Hmm, let's see. Perhaps a few thought experiments may help with the simple concept of remaining neutral in the face of evil.

Doing nothing, as they say, can be the biggest act.

These simple thought experiments represent what we teach kids and how moral character is generally judged. It assumes that one has the power to stop whatever is happening. Let's begin:

1) You see a child being molested by a known rapist. You stay neutral. What does this say about you?

2) You see an old, frail woman being robbed by a known thief. You watch and remain neutral. What does this say about you?

3) You see your own mother get attacked by thugs. You watch, even though you have the power to stop it, and stay neutral. What does this say about you?

Is Pakistan not something we think of as our mother? Has it not allowed us to be born in a non-Hindutva nation? Does it not require the ACTIVE blocking, stopping, defeating of blatant evil?

I leave the rest to you.

May be he was showing weakest form of emaan, dil main bura maan raha hoga

i agree with you, i have no further explanation why he stayed neutral after endorsing Cipher contents. This will be question mark on people who will defend him or his actions.

Bhai this whole fiasco is created by Bajwa and 3-4 of his cronies, not by whole institution. This is the reason we have to keep this thing in mind. its Bajwa who is the Traitor & willing to do damage to the Nation "NOT the Army as Institution"

bhai but people will keep blaming whole institution cant they realize this? its like saying It was IK alone not whole PTI supports him. Baqion ki marzi hai ya nae its their MAJBORI now to follow Qamar bhai because its not a democratic institution. They can either obey him or do a mutiny against him.

 

[ghazi52]

,.,.,.,.,

"Do Not Curse At The Institution"

The blood stained Jackets of Jawan who gave their last breath today and kept our flag high. Do respect & remember them in your prayers for those who see state much above than even their lives.

May Allah reward them with the best in the after world ...

P.S :- By hate comments about armed forces is like discouraging the Jawans to leave their posts and hand this heaven to the traitors of motherland. Choice is always with the people.
.,.,

 

[HRK]

They can either obey him or do a mutiny against him.

No Pakistani with sensible mind would want a mutiny in PA.

There are ways to get rid rogue leadership, Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan & Musharaf are the examples.

 

[Sal12]

That same culture also produced Raheel Sharif, let's also be objective brother.

Looks like Raheel Shareef was exception.

 

[Farah Sohail]

What if PDM pranks the Bajwa and make Mohsin Dawarh the Defense Minister. It would be a historic moment to watch Bajwa saluting him. And that MNA can certainly demand a ministry because that weird Govt is standing on very fragile foundations and every seat counts a lot for them.
As our soon to be FM said: "Jamhoriat hi behtreen inteqaam hai"

Wow!!!! that would be best.. but considering Mohsin Dawar is not in bad books of US, so I dont think Bajwa would have any problem saluting him