Why are many Indian Muslims seen as untouchable?

[Joe Shearer]

Joe I respect you highly but would just like to point out that statistically that data point is incorrect. Numbers don't add up. I don't need to see the census data to arrive at the conclusion that 75% of Muslims are not dalits.

Consider the growth rate of Indian Muslims post independence, growth rate of Hindus, base population of Hindus and Muslims, base population of Dalits as a subset of Hindu Muslims, migration to Pakistan and BD and lastly the conversion data (not available).

The figure based on off the hand calculations is likely to be in range 20%-50%. Remember this is the actual data point. Number of Muslims identified as Dalit Muslims is likely to be far far smaller. It is important to remember the distinction b/w Dalit Muslims and Muslims identified as Dalit Muslims. Since Islamic surnames are not evident of the caste.

@Spectre I appreciate your respect, and am flattered, but that is not the point. Instead of arriving at ivory tower characterisations about a situation of which most of us know nothing, we need to approach a relatively new subject with some humility. A classic exemplar of the kind of mistake that encourages us to be humble is your concluding remark that Islamic surnames are not evidence of the caste. They are, in certain cases. Ansaris are weavers, Julahas. Most are classifiable by their surnames.

Some of the backward or lower-caste Muslim caste include Quraishi, Hashmi, Ansari, Kunjra, Dhobi,Halalkhor, and Kalal. The upper caste Muslim caste include Garha, Iraqis, Mughals, Pathan, Muslim Rajput,Muslim Jatt and Muslim Tyagi .The important point to note is that most of these castes claim ancestry from Brahmin and Rajput. Genetic data has also supported this stratification.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_Muslims

 

[Spectre]

@Spectre I appreciate your respect, and am flattered, but that is not the point. Instead of arriving at ivory tower characterisations about a situation of which most of us know nothing, we need to approach a relatively new subject with some humility. A classic exemplar of the kind of mistake that encourages us to be humble is your concluding remark that Islamic surnames are not evidence of the caste. They are, in certain cases. Ansaris are weavers, Julahas. Most are classifiable by their surnames.

Some of the backward or lower-caste Muslim caste include Quraishi, Hashmi, Ansari, Kunjra, Dhobi,Halalkhor, and Kalal. The upper caste Muslim caste include Garha, Iraqis, Mughals, Pathan, Muslim Rajput,Muslim Jatt and Muslim Tyagi .The important point to note is that most of these castes claim ancestry from Brahmin and Rajput. Genetic data has also supported this stratification.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_Muslims

I admit I am guilty of ivory tower sermonizing many a times although I spoke fully in cognizance of the wiki article having quoted from the same article earlier making a different point. I will tell you the reason why I said in Muslims surnames are not evidence of their caste or atleast class affiliations is because I had a discussion about it with a local Imam who gave me contradictory evidence however that will not hold water as it is anecdotal in nature.

So I would have to support it with research, while it is true certain Muslims still give importance to their caste heritage in reality that stance has metamorphosed into divisions based on Quoms, professions, tribes or even locality. All in all there are 308 major sub divisions as listed above. Linkages b/w caste and it's characteristics in the strictest Hindu sense is no longer applicable. I would substitute class for caste.

1. Arain
2. Arghon
3. Ansari
4. Baghban
5. Balti
6. Behna
7. Bhatiara
8. Bhishti
9. Bisati
10. Burig
11. Chaush
12. Dard
13. Dhobi
14. Ghosi
15. Gujjar
16. Hyderabadi
17. Tamimi Iraqi
18. Khanzada
19. Kashmiri
20. Kunjra
21. Malkana
22. Manihar
23. Mappila
24. Meo
25. Mughal
26. Pathans
27. Qassab
28. Muslim Rajput
29. Ranghar
30. Rangrez
31. Saifi
32. Shaikh
33. Sayyid
34. Salmani
35. Siddi
36. Teli
37. Assamese
38. Bengali
39. Bhili
40. Dogra
41. Gondi
42. Gujarati
43. Konkani
44. Nawayath
45. Marathi
46. Meitei
47. Oriya
48. Tamil
49. Telugu
50. Labbay
51. Goan Muslims
52. Abdal
53. Ansari
54. Bakho
55. Bisati
56. Chamail
57. Churihar
58. Chik
59. Gaddi
60. Idrisi
61. Khanzada
62. Kulhaiya
63. Lal Begi
64. Malik of Bihar
65. Mirasi
66. Mirshikar
67. Mughal
68. Muker
69. Pasi
70. Nat
71. Pamaria
72. Pathan of Bihar
73. Rayeen
74. Sai
75. Sapera
76. Sayyid
77. Syed (Mallick)
78. Shaikh of Bihar
79. Shershahabadia
80. Thakurai
81. Teli
82. Abdal
83. Alavi Bohra
84. Ansari
85. Arabs
86. Attarwala
87. Bafan
88. Baloch
89. Banjara
90. Behlim
91. Bhadala
92. Bharbhunja
93. Bhishti
94. Chhipa
95. Chunara
96. Chundrigar
97. Dawoodi Bohra
98. Dhobi
99. Dhuldhoya
100. Doodwala
101. Faqir
102. Galiara
103. Ghanchi
104. Ghanchi-Pinjara
105. Halaypotra
106. Hingorja
107. Hingora
108. Jats of Kutch
109. Juneja
110. Kadia
111. Kagzi
112. Ker
113. Khalifa
114. Khaskheli
115. Khoja
116. Machiyar
117. Makrani
118. Malik of Gujarat
119. Mandali
120. Makwana
121. Manka
122. Mansoori
123. Memon
124. Meta Qureshi
125. Miyana
126. Molesalam
127. Momna
128. Mughal
129. Multani
130. Multani Lohar
131. Mutwa
132. Nagori
133. Nayak
134. Node
135. Panar
136. Parmar
137. Patani Bohra
138. Patni Jamat
139. Pathans of Gujarat
140. Salaat
141. Samma
142. Sandhai Muslims
143. Sanghar
144. Shaikhs of Gujarat
145. Shaikhda146. Sayyid of Gujarat
147. Siddi
148. Sipahi
149. Soomra
150. Sulaymani Bohra
151. Sunni Bohra
152. Tai
153. Turk Jamat
154. Vora Patel
155. Vyapari
156. Wagher
157. Baghban
158. Beary
159. Chaush
160. Chhaparband
161. Kodava maaple
162. Maaple
163. Konkani Muslims
164. Nawayath
165. Pinjara
166. Siddi
167. Mappila
168. Keyi
169. Thangal
170. Marakkar
171. Ossan
172. Pusalan
173. Thulukkar
174. Ansari
175. Banjara
176. Dawoodi Bohra
177. Mughal
178. Dhobi
179. Pathans of Madhya Pradesh
180. Shaikh
181. Sayyid
182. Attar
183. Baghban
184. Bhishti
185. Chaush
186. Chhaparband
187. Dawoodi Bohra
188. Dhawad
189. Faqir
190. Garodi
191. Gavandi
192. Kachar
193. Kagzi
194. Konkani Muslims
195. Momin
196. Muslim Raj Gond
197. Qassab
198. Qutbi Bohra
199. Saiqalgar
200. Tadvi Bhil
201. Ansari
202. Bhutta
203. Cheetah
204. Chadwa
205. Dawoodi Bohra
206. Deshwali
207. Gaddi
208. Ghosi
209. Hela Mehtar
210. Hiranbaz
211. Kandera
212. Khadem
213. Khanzada
214. Langha
215. Manganiar
216. Merat
217. Meo
218. Mughal
219. Pathans of Rajasthan
220. Pinjara
221. Qaimkhani
222. Rangrez
223. Rath
224. Shaikhs of Rajasthan
225. Silawa
t226. Sindhi-Sipahi
227. Singiwala
228. Sorgar
229. Kayalar
230. Labbay
231. Marakkar
232. Rowther
233. Mappila
234. Ahbans Khanzada
235. Ansari
236. Atishbaz
237. Bachgoti Khanzada
238. Baghban
239. Baluch
240. Bandhmati
241. Banjara
242. Barhai
243. Behlim
244. Bannu Israil
245. Behna
246. Bhand
247. Bharbhunja
248. Bhale Sultan Khanzada
249. Bhatti Khanzada
250. Bhatiara
251. Bhishti
252. Bhumihar Musalman
253. Bisen Khanzada
254. Bisati
255. Chandel Khanzada
256. Chik
257. Dakhini
258. Dafali
259. Dhagi
260. Dharhi
261. Dhobi Musalmaan
262. Dogar
263. Fareedi
264. Faqir
265. Gaddi
266. Garha (Gaur Brahmin-Mughal Community)
267. Gautam Khanzada
268. Ghosi
269. Goriya
270. Gujjar Musalmaan
271. Halalkhor
272. Halwai
273. Idrisi
274. Tamimi Iraqi
275. Jat Musalmaan
276. Jhojha
277. Kabaria
278. Kakorvi Shaikh
279. Kamangar
280. Kamboh
281. Kasgar
282. Kayastha Musalman
283. Khanzada
284. Khokhar Khanzada
285. Khumra
286. Kingharia
287. Kunjra
288. Lal Begi
289. Lalkhani Rajput
290. Madari
291. Mandarkia
292. Malkana
293. Manihar
294. Meo
295. Milki
296. Mirasi
297. Mughal
298. Mujavir
299. Muker
300. Nagar Muslims
301. Nalband
302. Nanbai
303. Naqqal
304. Panchpiria
305. Pankhiya
306. Pathans of Uttar Pradesh
307. Putliwale
308. Qalandar.

 

[Parul]

Even among Sikhs and Muslims, there is discrimination. Sometimes as intense as in the case of Hindus. Your facts are incorrect. I say this with categorical knowledge.

I'd be glad to learn about the Discrimination among Sikhs & correct my facts?

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Spectre

I suggest you write to Khalid and discuss the matter with him. He is quite well up on the subject, and can address your queries with great authenticity. Try it.

I'd be glad to learn about the Discrimination among Sikhs & correct my facts?

Sure.

Read (all available in Wikipedia)

Scheduled Castes

• Ad-Dharmi
• Balmiki
• Bazigar
• Chamar
• Khateek
• Mazhabi Sikh
• Mochi
• Mirasi
• Nanda
• Nat
• Ramdasia Sikh
• Ravidasi

 

[Parul]

@Spectre





Sure.

Read (all available in Wikipedia)

Scheduled Castes

• Ad-Dharmi
• Balmiki
• Bazigar
• Chamar
• Khateek
• Mazhabi Sikh
• Mochi
• Mirasi
• Nanda
• Nat
• Ramdasia Sikh
• Ravidasi

Sure, I'm going to go through these links tomorrow. In the meantime, would like to tell you that Ravidasi are not SIKHS, as they don't follow teachings of Sikhism. They follow teachings of Guru Ravidass?

You may go ahead and read the Wiki Link you are referring me to go through.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sure, I'm going to go through these links tomorrow. In the meantime, would like to tell you that Ravidasi are not SIKHS, as they don't follow teachings of Sikhism .

You may go ahead and read the Wiki Link you are referring me to go through.

LOL.

I have. It is a list of scheduled castes in the Punjab. Not all of them are Sikhs. In case you haven't got it yet, what you have to do - I admit it is hard work - is to pick out those who are Sikhs as well as Hindus, and read up on their conditions.

Any more questions?

 

[livingdead]

I have never heard about the term dalit muslims(may be because they never made noise, unlike dalit christians)... but wont be surprised that they do exist.
Sikhs and christians also carry caste system even after conversion from hinduism... In India, you can leave your religion, but not your caste.

 

[DesiGuy1403]

There is no discrimination in Hindu temples anymore. All Castes and all religions can pretty much go to any temple and pray, as long as they are willing to follow the temple customs.

For example, Tirumala, by far the most popular pilgrimage for Hindus, have no concept of knowing your caste. Same way with other temples.

Point is, Hindusism has taken steps at least by enfranchising these suppressed groups. Fact though is there is a large segment of Hindus who are still clinging to their caste and looking through a prism.
BUT
There is a large section of the newer generations who are rising above this caste identity and this gives us a hope.

Another interesting point to note is the active discourse on this matter in Hinduism and the corrective steps taken by Hindus. Yes, the systemic changes for equality among all caste is now in place, people now have to grow up.

Where as other religions like Islam and Christianity, pretend that there is no discrimination, hence there is no discourse to address it.

 

[Levina]

Why are they included in the scheduled caste?

Their will!!!
They cling on to their scheduled caste/tribe status because they would loose out on the freebies/privileges that SC/ST gets, reservation being one among them.
So in India, you can be a "Dalit" and Muslim/Christian at the same time. Lol

 

[Windjammer]

So it's Hindus fault that Muslims of Subcontinent are not following Islam as they ought to? Stop deflecting and accept that Muslims of the subcontinent have failed these dalit converts. They were promised equality and respect but alas they got duped.

I don't believe i singled out Hindus in my post, however it's indeed the reflection of Indian society in general where this practice is carried out with immunity and don't generalise it as it seems more of a problem amongst Indian Muslims.