Who's right, Israel or Palestine?

[RFS_Br]

BTW, there were around 500,000 Palestinians who fled their homes while Israel received 800,000 Jewish refugees from all around the Arab world who lost their property and bank account and were given no compensations. Maybe there was an ethnic cleansing in the Arab world from Jews?

Right, the "Jewish refugees".

Yehouda Shenhav, an Israeli sociologist of Iraqi Jewish descent, has written that the claim that Mizrahi Jews were forced out of their homes in the aftermath of Israel's creation, that they're thus refugees, wasn't made by either Zionist officials or Arab Jews themselves when they were arriving in Israel in the early 50s -- instead, it first appeared in the 70s, the invention of an activist intent on helping Israel counter the financial costs of paying compensations to Palestinian refugees.

You forget that, after Israel's creation, many Arab countries -- e.g., Iraq, Syria, Morocco -- outlawed Jewish emigration, which shows that, in contrast to Israel, who wanted to expel Palestinians from their homes, what most Arab countries wanted was to prevent a Jewish exodus. Iran did the same following the 79 revolution.

Israeli historians and political figures have also cast doubt on those "refugee" claims.

Israeli historian Tom Segev:

"Deciding to emigrate to Israel from one of the Arab countries was often a very personal decision, as it was in Europe. It was based on the particular circumstances of the individual's life. They were not all poor, or 'dwellers in dark caves and smoking pits', as poet Nathan Alterman put it. Nor were they always subject to persecution, repression or discrimination in their native lands. They emigrated for a variety of reasons just as the ones who had emigrated from Europe, depending on the country, the time, the community and the person."

And Shlomo Hillel, an operative of the Zionist underground that aided many Iraqi Jews immigrate to Israel:

"I do not regard the exodus of Jews from Arab countries as refugees (...). The Jews from Arab countries came because they wanted to come."

And Ran Cohen, an Iraqi Jew and a Meretz party member:

"I did not come to this country as a refugee. I stole across borders. I underwent a great deal of torment (...). I have no need for anyone to define the Jews of the East as refugee Jewry."

And the aforementioned Yehouda Shenhav:

"Any reasonable person, Zionist or non-Zionist, must acknowledge that the analogy drawn between Palestinians and Mizrahi Jews is unfounded. Palestinian refugees did not want to leave Palestine. Many Palestinian communities were destroyed in 1948, and some 700,000 Palestinians were expelled, or fled, from the borders of historic Palestine. Those who left did not do so of their own volition.

"In contrast, Jews from Arab lands came to this country under the initiative of the State of Israel and Jewish organizations. Some came of their own free will; others arrived against their will. Some lived comfortably and securely in Arab lands; others suffered from fear and oppression."

 

[Skorpian]

RFS_br is totally right about the fact that Jews settling in Palestine was about returning to homeland is debatable. There were many plans and many possible areas for Jews to settle in. To mention a few, we have Uganda, Cyprus, El Arish ( on Sinai in Egypt ), Kimberley in Australia and East Prussia.

 

[jatt+gutts]

i voted israel. arabs backstab us. n then if arabs and pakistanis are so caring for palestinians why cant they settle them in their countries. many arabs nations are oil rich. cant they handle few palestinians. where is umma brotherhood. whole of middle east is fucked up. there are small oil rich nations and large poor nations. show umma brotherhood first and allow equal distribution of wealth. israel is democratric nation with equal rights. even muslims live there. how many jews have their worship places in arab lands. no matter what pakistanis thnk. israel is right. pakistanis and other muslims always will b siding with muslims anyway

 

[Skorpian]

i voted israel. arabs backstab us. n then if arabs and pakistanis are so caring for palestinians why cant they settle them in their countries. many arabs nations are oil rich. cant they handle few palestinians. where is umma brotherhood. whole of middle east is fucked up. there are small oil rich nations and large poor nations. show umma brotherhood first and allow equal distribution of wealth. israel is democratric nation with equal rights. even muslims live there. how many jews have their worship places in arab lands. no matter what pakistanis thnk. israel is right. pakistanis and other muslims always will b siding with muslims anyway

Instead of us settling the Palestinians in our lands, why don't you settle Israel in India, US or Canada? Canada is a very big country, with a pretty little population. They can accommodate the Israelis very well!
Please enough of this " Arabs take Palestinians into their countries " bullshit. In the same sense, why don't you guys just take the Israelis? After all, Israelis are the immigrants not the Palestinians..
Get your facts straight, there are Jews living in Arab countries..
Muslims face discrimination in Israel by the way if you haven't known. Only women and elderly men are allowed into Al-Aqsa mosque. Al-aqsa mosque is broken into every now and then by Israelis!

 

[Thomas]

Thomas,

No one took place of the Jews after they were uprooted by the Romans. Many studies suggest that Palestinians probably descend from populations who have lived there for thousands of years, dating their presence in the area back to pre-history. This is the conclusion of a genetics paper produced by geneticists at an Israeli university:

You mean this study?

Epiphenom: The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians



Another team, lead by Almut Nebel at the Hebrew University, Jerusalem, took a closer look in 2001. They found that Jewish lineages essentially bracket Muslim Kurds, but they were also very closely related to Palestinians. In fact, what their analysis suggested was that Palestinians were identical to Jews, but with a small mix of Arab genes - what you would expect if they were originally from the same stock, but that Palestinians had mixed a little with Arab immigrants. They conclude:

"We propose that the Y chromosomes in Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin represent, to a large extent, early lineages derived from the Neolithic inhabitants of the area and additional lineages from more-recent population movements. The early lineages are part of the common chromosome pool shared with Jews (Nebel et al. 2000). According to our working model, the more-recent migrations were mostly from the Arabian Peninsula..."

So, as far as male lineage goes, the genetic story is very clear. Palestinians and Jews are virtually indistinguishable.

 

[Harry_Thomason]

Just because the Jews suffered heavily during WW2 doesn't mean they get to steal lands, kill people while the rest of the world ignores it.

You missed my point - Israel is modern Nazi.

They are so alike in many areas:

1) Have superiority complex of the "chosen nation".
2) Occupies lands.
3) Did genocide.
4) Uses mass propaganda.

As one British historian said, "the saddest thing, is that Jews learned the wrong lessons from the Hitler". Instead of being the total opposite from the Nazis they suffered to much from, they replicated what Nazis did. Its like molested child grows up molester himself, thats what Israel is today.

 

[nirreich]

Bullshit. There's plenty of evidence -- including statements by your political leaders -- proving otherwise. I won't read or reply to the rest of your screed, if you won't recognize even basic facts.



Massacres and dispossession of Palestinians affected mainly non-combattants and villages not directly involved in the fighting. And even if the "war" could explain the exodus, it doesn't explain why Palestinian refugees were impeded to return to their homes, ato claim their lands and money, even after the war ended and the UN passed resolutions demanding their return. Interestingly, you take great offense at the Palestinian rejection of non-binding UNGA resolution passing the partition resolution -- a resolution which put mostly Palestinian Arab land under Jewish sovereignty -- though you seem to be pretty indifferent to Israel's own flaunting of UN resolutions.

Anyway, if Palestinians and later on Arabs hadn't started the 1948 war, then Israel would. Zionists never truly accepted the 1948 borders.They pretended they did because that was the clever thing to do: they left it for Palestinians and Arabs to contest the partition, so later on they could garner international support in a future war against their opponents by shifting all of the blame for the conflict on them.

According to "The Iron Wall", a book by Israeli historian Avi Shlaim, prior to Israel's foundation and the subsequent war Zionist officials were already scheming with King Abdullah of Jordan to sabotage a future Palestinian state. The King was interested in creating a Great Jordan by taking lands from neighboring countries, so the Zionists promised him that, after gobbling up more Arab land following the "independence" war, they'd support his annexation of what'd be left of the proposed Palestinian state. In other words, a war in 1948 was inevitable, whether or not it was the Arabs who made the first move.

Zionist leaders saw in the partition plan only the first stage of their conquest of the whole of historical Palestine. Ben Gurion said in late 30s, "After the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we shall abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine".

And even if the Zionists were the good citizens they pretended to be, even if they had accepted the UN partition with no further attempt to expand their territory at the expense of Palestinians, it'd still be right for Palestinians to fight back against Israel's creation. Terrorism, confiscation of goods and land annexation have been part of the making of the state of Israel from the beginning. Said David Ben Gurion: "We must see the situation for what it is. On the security front, we are those attacked and who are on the defensive. But in the political field we are the attackers and the Arabs are those defending themselves. They are living in the country and own the land, the village. We live in the Diaspora and want only to immigrate [to Palestine] and gain possession of [lirkosh] from them".





Quoting IDF documents opened to public access in the 1980s, Israeli Jewish historian Benny Morris has found that 55% of Palestinians left under direct attacks of the Haganah, and a further 15% left under terrorist assaults by Zionist groups Irgun and Lehi. Some other Palestinians left because of direct expulsion orders by Jews and psychological warfare intended to frighten them away from their homes. Only a small minority of Palestinians fled on their own accord.

I gave you plenty of arguments which point that Israel's withdrawals were not under a threat of use of force from the Arab side not there is or ever was any master plan of occupation. You have the right to stay ignorant, and stick to your ideas which has no support in reality.

I had the great honour to listen to Beni Moritz who two years ago published a new book on the 1948 War and the Palestinian problem called "1948". What I have told you is based on him - most of the Palestinians fled with no help nor encouragement of Israel and of course he rules out completely the nonsense of master plan to get rid of the Palestinians.

You acknowledge that the Palestinians rejected the partition plan of 1947 and Israel accepted it, and still you justify their decision which brought them where they are today - living in refugee camps, scattered and with no independent state which if and when be established will be much smaller than what they could get in 1947. And you blame the Jews for an imaginary war they never provoked.

So you justify their violence against the Jewish community and you blame the Jews for not surrendering and commit suicide. Sorry for that, we will try better next time...

And Israel did accept the 1948 borders and ask the Arab countries time and time again to make peace in this borders - but rejected over and over again, until 1967. Now it is the Arabs who wants peace in the same borders they rejected before...

Of course Israel tried to get into agreement with the King of Jordan against the Palestinian national movement, what did you expect? The head of the Palestinians was the Grand Mufit, Hussaini, a declared Nazi, convicted on war crimes in France, who was a personal friend of Hitler, and now under his leadership the Palestinians were ready to implement his plan to get rid of the Jews. So, of course Israel preferred that if the Palestinians reject the partition plan there would not be any Nazi Palestinian state on their border, it is better to deal with the regular Arab hostility.

As for the Palestinian refugees, they are no different than other war refugees who fled their homes and re-settled in their hosting countries. Only the Palestinians have permanent refugee camps because the Arab countries treat them as dirt and second class people, and their own Palestinian leadership prefer to leave them in deprivation so to use them as a political tool. As I mentioned, Israel with its 600,000 people at the end of the 1948 War absorbed 800,000 Jews from Arab countries who became refugees (and several hundred thousands who fled from Europe), so Arab countries with their vast resources, population and territory can easily house the Palestinian refugees. What happened to their solidarity with the Palestinian cause?

Bullshit. There's plenty of evidence -- including statements by your political leaders -- proving otherwise. I won't read or reply to the rest of your screed, if you won't recognize even basic facts.



Massacres and dispossession of Palestinians affected mainly non-combattants and villages not directly involved in the fighting. And even if the "war" could explain the exodus, it doesn't explain why Palestinian refugees were impeded to return to their homes, ato claim their lands and money, even after the war ended and the UN passed resolutions demanding their return. Interestingly, you take great offense at the Palestinian rejection of non-binding UNGA resolution passing the partition resolution -- a resolution which put mostly Palestinian Arab land under Jewish sovereignty -- though you seem to be pretty indifferent to Israel's own flaunting of UN resolutions.

Anyway, if Palestinians and later on Arabs hadn't started the 1948 war, then Israel would. Zionists never truly accepted the 1948 borders.They pretended they did because that was the clever thing to do: they left it for Palestinians and Arabs to contest the partition, so later on they could garner international support in a future war against their opponents by shifting all of the blame for the conflict on them.

According to "The Iron Wall", a book by Israeli historian Avi Shlaim, prior to Israel's foundation and the subsequent war Zionist officials were already scheming with King Abdullah of Jordan to sabotage a future Palestinian state. The King was interested in creating a Great Jordan by taking lands from neighboring countries, so the Zionists promised him that, after gobbling up more Arab land following the "independence" war, they'd support his annexation of what'd be left of the proposed Palestinian state. In other words, a war in 1948 was inevitable, whether or not it was the Arabs who made the first move.

Zionist leaders saw in the partition plan only the first stage of their conquest of the whole of historical Palestine. Ben Gurion said in late 30s, "After the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we shall abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine".

And even if the Zionists were the good citizens they pretended to be, even if they had accepted the UN partition with no further attempt to expand their territory at the expense of Palestinians, it'd still be right for Palestinians to fight back against Israel's creation. Terrorism, confiscation of goods and land annexation have been part of the making of the state of Israel from the beginning. Said David Ben Gurion: "We must see the situation for what it is. On the security front, we are those attacked and who are on the defensive. But in the political field we are the attackers and the Arabs are those defending themselves. They are living in the country and own the land, the village. We live in the Diaspora and want only to immigrate [to Palestine] and gain possession of [lirkosh] from them".





Quoting IDF documents opened to public access in the 1980s, Israeli Jewish historian Benny Morris has found that 55% of Palestinians left under direct attacks of the Haganah, and a further 15% left under terrorist assaults by Zionist groups Irgun and Lehi. Some other Palestinians left because of direct expulsion orders by Jews and psychological warfare intended to frighten them away from their homes. Only a small minority of Palestinians fled on their own accord.

I gave you plenty of arguments which point that Israel's withdrawals were not under a threat of use of force from the Arab side not there is or ever was any master plan of occupation. You have the right to stay ignorant, and stick to your ideas which has no support in reality.

I had the great honour to listen to Beni Moritz who two years ago published a new book on the 1948 War and the Palestinian problem called "1948". What I have told you is based on him - most of the Palestinians fled with no help nor encouragement of Israel and of course he rules out completely the nonsense of master plan to get rid of the Palestinians.

You acknowledge that the Palestinians rejected the partition plan of 1947 and Israel accepted it, and still you justify their decision which brought them where they are today - living in refugee camps, scattered and with no independent state which if and when be established will be much smaller than what they could get in 1947. And you blame the Jews for an imaginary war they never provoked.

So you justify their violence against the Jewish community and you blame the Jews for not surrendering and commit suicide. Sorry for that, we will try better next time...

And Israel did accept the 1948 borders and ask the Arab countries time and time again to make peace in this borders - but rejected over and over again, until 1967. Now it is the Arabs who wants peace in the same borders they rejected before...

Of course Israel tried to get into agreement with the King of Jordan against the Palestinian national movement, what did you expect? The head of the Palestinians was the Grand Mufit, Hussaini, a declared Nazi, convicted on war crimes in France, who was a personal friend of Hitler, and now under his leadership the Palestinians were ready to implement his plan to get rid of the Jews. So, of course Israel preferred that if the Palestinians reject the partition plan there would not be any Nazi Palestinian state on their border, it is better to deal with the regular Arab hostility.

As for the Palestinian refugees, they are no different than other war refugees who fled their homes and re-settled in their hosting countries. Only the Palestinians have permanent refugee camps because the Arab countries treat them as dirt and second class people, and their own Palestinian leadership prefer to leave them in deprivation so to use them as a political tool. As I mentioned, Israel with its 600,000 people at the end of the 1948 War absorbed 800,000 Jews from Arab countries who became refugees (and several hundred thousands who fled from Europe), so Arab countries with their vast resources, population and territory can easily house the Palestinian refugees. What happened to their solidarity with the Palestinian cause?

 

[Abingdonboy]

Hey, you can't blame the Israelis for existing and wanting the right to exist peacefully, right? From what I hear before Jewish people started work on the land that is now Isreal it was barren and unwanted by Arabs and Palestinians, now it is worth something they want it back?

 

[nirreich]

You missed my point - Israel is modern Nazi.

They are so alike in many areas:

1) Have superiority complex of the "chosen nation".
2) Occupies lands.
3) Did genocide.
4) Uses mass propaganda.

As one British historian said, "the saddest thing, is that Jews learned the wrong lessons from the Hitler". Instead of being the total opposite from the Nazis they suffered to much from, they replicated what Nazis did. Its like molested child grows up molester himself, thats what Israel is today.

Where did you get this nonsense? It is all anti-Semite crap.

Prove me wrong.

 

[Skorpian]

Where did you get this nonsense? It is all anti-Semite crap.

Prove me wrong.

He's correct. Don't say you aren't occupying lands, legally, Golan heights , Sheba farms in southern Lebanon, West Bank and East Jerusalem all are not your lands.
I said it before and I'll say it again, you are a double-faced country. You want black immigrants out, but you didn't want Palestinians to kick you out in the 1920's, 1930's and 1940's even though you were immigrants as well... Heck, at least the black people in Israel don't want to establish a state unlike you, who came with the openly-known intention of establishing a state in Palestine.
Quit this bullshit about Arabs absorbing Palestinians, why don't Israelis get absorbed by some other nations who adore them? For instance, you have the US and Canada.
About the fact that you wanted to go to Palestine because it's your " ancestral homeland ", that is.. I just don't know how to describe it. That is nonsense.
Do you know for sure that every single Jew around the world who immigrated to Israel were actually ancient Palestinians who lived in Palestine? Jews didn't use to live only in Palestine you know. And the fact that they were mixed with other people over the centuries make their claim baseless. You also forgot that actually you also didn't target Palestine as your only possibility of a homeland, you had other areas such as Uganda, Cyprus, Australia and East Prussia, just to name a few.

 

[nirreich]

He's correct. Don't say you aren't occupying lands, legally, Golan heights isn't yours, Sheba farms in southern Lebanon, West Bank and East Jerusalem.
I said it before and I'll say it again, you are a double-faced country. You want black immigrants out, but you didn't want Palestinians to kick you out in the 1920's, 1930's and 1940's even though you were immigrants as well...

Skorpion,

We talked on this before, and I explained to you in words of one syllable the difference between the illegal African immigrants coming to Israel from Egypt (!) and the Jewish legal immigrant to their historic homeland. You just do not listen to any argument which is not comfortable to you and your agenda.

Your theory about other Jewish homelands is the real nonsense.

The bottom line is the Jewish people needs his own nation state like other world nations and the only place for that is in its historic homeland where it was once independent and always yearned to go back.

 

[Scum]

Dumbo , there is no "Arab-a$$ kissing" what so ever. Unlike inferiority-complexed stricken slave bharti race , Pakistanis don't kiss anyone's behind. Oh alas , you are senior member and you should have known how much "buttering" Arabs receive from Pakistanis on this forum ... Palestine issue is the issue of humanity. They were expelled from their land and Israelis snatched poor people's land and called it theirs...but since Israelis were Westerners...slave Bhartis were bound to kiss their a$$ ...and hence you are doing it. By the way , not only Pakistan but many , many other nations support Palestine..are they kissing Arab **** too? LOL! Average bharti is a mental slave of whites. Pity on you.

No one is cussing Americans ...duhhhh! I just told them what happens IN Pakistan...Learn to comprehend things better , 'bharti'

Coming from a psuedo-Pakistani living safely in America. Your opinion was already horrible, now it's just invalid.

Mirrors, I wish everyone in Pakistan knew how to use them.

 

[Skorpian]

Skorpion,

We talked on this before, and I explained to you in words of one syllable the difference between the illegal African immigrants coming to Israel from Egypt (!) and the Jewish legal immigrant to their historic homeland. You just do not listen to any argument which is not comfortable to you and your agenda.

You explained it before and your explanation was totally irrelevant to what I said..

 

[nirreich]

You explained it before and your explanation was totally irrelevant to what I said..

What was irrelevant? Than Israel is not bound to accept illegal immigrants like any other country in the world? Why Israel needs to follow other rules than everybody else?

 

[humanfirst]

Did the migration of palestenian refugees start before 1948 war..?If yes then when exaclty did it start..?
Can someone enlighten me on this..?