Who Was The Best Fighter Pilot Ever ?
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It is true that Erich Hartmann was very good with his guns and leading enemy aircraft while he fired. However, he was fighting mostly Soviet aircraft accounting for 345 of his 352 kills, of those, 260 were fighter aircraft. The Soviet pilots flew inferior aircraft with painted on gun sites that were not very accurate. Hartmann flew most of his victories piloting the Messerschmitt BF 109 w/ the MG 151 cannon, which is a superior aircraft compared to Soviet aircraft of the time. Fighting the Soviets did give him extrememly valuable flight time and experience. So he was much more experienced than many of the pilots out there by the time he engaged the American's for the first time.
In his first engagement with the Americans who were flying the P-51, there were four P-51 aircraft against an unknown number of Luftwaffe, and he was able to shoot down two aircraft as his comrades shot down the other two. In a later engagement with an unknown number of American pilots flying the P-51 against an unknown number of Luftwaffe, it is reported he was able to shoot down four aircraft in a single engagement.
In his fifth engagement with American Pilots flying the P-51B (the first P-51 had some problems), he was reported to have been able to shoot down two more aircraft. In this engagement, however, in his effort to avoid allowing himself to be shot down he ran out of ammunition and fuel resulting in his having to bail out of the aircraft. One of the P-51Bs flown by Lt. Robert J. Goebel of the 308th Squadron, 31st Fighter Group, broke away and headed straight for him. Goebel was making a camera pass to record the bailout and banked away from him only at the last moment, waving at Hartmann as he went by.
So, if you consider these statistics against decent pilots with decent aircraft, he has 8 kills which is still nearly a double ace. I'm inclined to believe he had only 7 kills against American pilots in the P-51 or he had 344 Soviet kills, because the math doesn't add up. If he had 352 total kills and 345 were Soviet, that only leaves 7 kills. Either way... Hartmann was an amazing fighter pilot.
John Boyd, flew the American equivalent to the Soviet Mig in Korea, against the Mig, and many say the Mig was the superior aircraft. John Boyd had very few sorties over Korea toward the end of the war. John Boyd arrived late for the Korean War. He was transferred to Suwon Air Base in South Korea in March 1953. U.S. Air Force fighter tactics called for the use of the flight of four as the fighting element. The flight consisted of flight leader and his wingman, accompanied by an element leader and his wingman. The flight leader and the element leader were the shooters while the duty of the wingman was to cover his leaders six oclock position. A new pilot had to fly about thirty missions as a wingman before he could be an element leader and shooter.
U.S. pilots could not cross the Yalu river under no circumstances. American pilots most often encountered enemy aircraft in MiG Alley, the thirty-mile wide stretch south of the Yalu river. Despite this very restrictive Rules of Engagement (ROE) some American pilots strayed into Manchuria and got their first aerial victories over there. Tactics used by experienced F-86 pilots were essentially the same used by P-51 Mustang pilots during World War II but at higher altitudes and greater speeds.
John Boyd was credited with damaging a MiG-15 on 30 June 1953. There are no official details, but the story goes that Boyd and RAF exchange officer Jock Maitland flew north of Yalu river and encountered a formation of MiGs. By June 1953 Soviet pilots were no longer flying in North Korea, which is the reason the exchange ratios developed dramatically in favour of the Americans. Hostilities ceased before Boyd was promoted to element leader, so he never was a shooter. Boyd was the best F-86 Sabre pilot in his squadron for which he was made the assistant operations officer on 20 October 1953.
As I've already stated, John Boyd flew as instructor, but flew against identical aircraft, and could beat any pilot in a dog fight with him within 40 seconds.
In my opinion, it doesn't get any better than that.
In his first engagement with the Americans who were flying the P-51, there were four P-51 aircraft against an unknown number of Luftwaffe, and he was able to shoot down two aircraft as his comrades shot down the other two. In a later engagement with an unknown number of American pilots flying the P-51 against an unknown number of Luftwaffe, it is reported he was able to shoot down four aircraft in a single engagement.
In his fifth engagement with American Pilots flying the P-51B (the first P-51 had some problems), he was reported to have been able to shoot down two more aircraft. In this engagement, however, in his effort to avoid allowing himself to be shot down he ran out of ammunition and fuel resulting in his having to bail out of the aircraft. One of the P-51Bs flown by Lt. Robert J. Goebel of the 308th Squadron, 31st Fighter Group, broke away and headed straight for him. Goebel was making a camera pass to record the bailout and banked away from him only at the last moment, waving at Hartmann as he went by.
So, if you consider these statistics against decent pilots with decent aircraft, he has 8 kills which is still nearly a double ace. I'm inclined to believe he had only 7 kills against American pilots in the P-51 or he had 344 Soviet kills, because the math doesn't add up. If he had 352 total kills and 345 were Soviet, that only leaves 7 kills. Either way... Hartmann was an amazing fighter pilot.
John Boyd, flew the American equivalent to the Soviet Mig in Korea, against the Mig, and many say the Mig was the superior aircraft. John Boyd had very few sorties over Korea toward the end of the war. John Boyd arrived late for the Korean War. He was transferred to Suwon Air Base in South Korea in March 1953. U.S. Air Force fighter tactics called for the use of the flight of four as the fighting element. The flight consisted of flight leader and his wingman, accompanied by an element leader and his wingman. The flight leader and the element leader were the shooters while the duty of the wingman was to cover his leaders six oclock position. A new pilot had to fly about thirty missions as a wingman before he could be an element leader and shooter.
U.S. pilots could not cross the Yalu river under no circumstances. American pilots most often encountered enemy aircraft in MiG Alley, the thirty-mile wide stretch south of the Yalu river. Despite this very restrictive Rules of Engagement (ROE) some American pilots strayed into Manchuria and got their first aerial victories over there. Tactics used by experienced F-86 pilots were essentially the same used by P-51 Mustang pilots during World War II but at higher altitudes and greater speeds.
John Boyd was credited with damaging a MiG-15 on 30 June 1953. There are no official details, but the story goes that Boyd and RAF exchange officer Jock Maitland flew north of Yalu river and encountered a formation of MiGs. By June 1953 Soviet pilots were no longer flying in North Korea, which is the reason the exchange ratios developed dramatically in favour of the Americans. Hostilities ceased before Boyd was promoted to element leader, so he never was a shooter. Boyd was the best F-86 Sabre pilot in his squadron for which he was made the assistant operations officer on 20 October 1953.
As I've already stated, John Boyd flew as instructor, but flew against identical aircraft, and could beat any pilot in a dog fight with him within 40 seconds.
In my opinion, it doesn't get any better than that.
aliyusuf
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What is your opinion of the Yak-3 (4500+ built) and the Polikarpov I-16 (8500+ built). Do you consider them as inferior as well?
Absolutely not... the yak-3 was a nice handling aircraft and did very well against german fighters, but it was a prototype in 1941 and didn't come into service until late 1944, but by then, Hartmann had already had most of his kills under his belt. However, the wartime version of the fighter had problems that were unresolved during the war.
The Polikarpov I-16 was a sturdy aircraft, but couldn't stand up to the maneuverability of the Messerschmitt and literally had inaccurate, painted on sights, gun jamming issues, bullet penetration issues. The type 5 and 6 dominated the skys pre-Messerschmitt BF-109. They were more like the American first fighters of the war. Once the Messerschmitt BF-109 entered the war, the I-16 couldn't keep up. The Americans built the P-51 and the British had the Spitfire. The Spitfire did extremely well against Messerschmitts.
That's why the Soviets started to build a Soviet version of the British Spitfire in the Yak-3, but couldn't get it's issues fixed prior to the war end.
The Polikarpov I-16 was a sturdy aircraft, but couldn't stand up to the maneuverability of the Messerschmitt and literally had inaccurate, painted on sights, gun jamming issues, bullet penetration issues. The type 5 and 6 dominated the skys pre-Messerschmitt BF-109. They were more like the American first fighters of the war. Once the Messerschmitt BF-109 entered the war, the I-16 couldn't keep up. The Americans built the P-51 and the British had the Spitfire. The Spitfire did extremely well against Messerschmitts.
That's why the Soviets started to build a Soviet version of the British Spitfire in the Yak-3, but couldn't get it's issues fixed prior to the war end.
SHAMS SJ
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I am sorry your site just stopped while I was writing.
I was & am the one and only SHAMS & the best fighter pilot ever, everyone is welcome to contact me at schohaan@yahoo.com
there are a lot of mistakes in ur records & i am alive and well in USA.
Yes, I shot 4 a/c in one combat.
I was & am the one and only SHAMS & the best fighter pilot ever, everyone is welcome to contact me at schohaan@yahoo.com
there are a lot of mistakes in ur records & i am alive and well in USA.
Yes, I shot 4 a/c in one combat.
Super Falcon
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For me world record holder M.M ALAM destoryed 4 indian jets in less than minutes no one comes close at that time no missiles only gun man immpossible to do it again for anyone
SHAMS SJ
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I am the real Shams, i now live in Oklahoma USA i changed my name to Shams a.chohaan ( from Mohammad Shamsul Haq ) 40 years and our records are still confusing. You are all invited to contact me either here or at schohaan@yahoo. Com to verify any misquotes in the blogs, which seem plenty.
I was, I am and Inshallah will always remain the best fighter Pilot the PAF ever produced.
Thanks
shams (sj)
I was, I am and Inshallah will always remain the best fighter Pilot the PAF ever produced.
Thanks
shams (sj)
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Pardon me sir, but isn't that a bit rude. If I were a Pilot,I would have rather wished my successors to be more capable than me so that the tradition of excellence lives on. Somethings are more important than records, I wish every coming pilot to be better than the best pilot like you.
SHAMS SJ
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It is very heart breaking, when I see you the PAF jocks discuss the Ace Pilots of the world and forget about your own. Our PAF history is so distorted that some of you dont even know the names of Pilots, whoes deeds made PAF famous all over the world. I for one shot 4 (four) enemy aircraft in one combat sortie over Dacca with hundreds of ground witnesses, yet I see some of you looking for the right Shamsul Haq. That is me, now known as SHAMS CHOHAAN. Add the SJ. I now live in USA schohaan@yahoo.com. For once correct the History. And be proud of some of us that fought the forgotten war. On the other hand any pilot could have done what the now famous M.M.Alam did ( no big deal, peace of cake).
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THANK U SIR FOR THE SERVICES U HAvE RENDERED FOR THE MOTHERLAND... WE SALUTE U AND OTHER HEROES LIKE U.......But saying tht wat MM Alam did was a piece of cake isnt exactly right either..... anyways welcome and enjoy ur stay.... we have PAF heroes frm 65 and 71 on PDF ...Like Sir Murad K and others....
God bless u and our other heroes...Ameen.
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Someone certainly thinks too much of himself
Even if you were/are the best, don't you think it is a bit narcissistic of yourself to publicly proclaim that? Tone down the self-love bro
MastanKhan
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Hi,
If you are the one---then I am proud of you---great job----thankyou and God bless you for the services rendered to the nation.
SHAMS SJ
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READ THE PAKISTAN AIR FORCE HISTORY AND TRY TO GET AERIAL PHOTO REALS FROM THE LIABRARY OF CONGRESS, THEY HAVE A TRUNK FULL OF CINE AS WELL AS THE ONES SHOT BY MEDIA, I KNOW BECAUSE I FLEW THE TRUNK FULL OF FILMS TO AQYAB, BURMA IN A AGRO AVIATION AIRCRAFT AFTER THE WAR IN 1971.
SHAMS
SHAMS
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Goes beteween richtofen,marseille and hartmann.
Manfred von Richthofen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hans-Joachim Marseille - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What goes against hartmann is that he scored most of his kills in the eastern front.Russian planes were outdated and their pilots very badly trained at that time due to purges and lack of organization in the red air force.
The same problem of more kills vs eastern also goes against gunther rall[third highest in history] Günther Rall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and gerhard barkhorn.[second highest]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Barkhorn
Best ever ground attack ace hans ulrich rudel.
Hans-Ulrich Rudel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Best ever tactician boelcke.Also galland is a contender,as is molders.
Oswald Boelcke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Marseille was probably the best of ww2.he had only 160 odd kills but all of them against british or american aircraft and most over africa where the luftwaffe was heavily outnumbered.The raf was recognised by the luftwaffe as its greatest opponent.And alos unlike the others all but 4 of his victories came against fighter aircraft.
Most of the luftwaffe pilots recognized him as the greatest and probably only matched by richtofen.Though richtofen's style better matched that of hartmann.Both were hunters.Cautious and oppurtunistic.
Note that all of these were germans.That says something about them.
About marseille-
Hans-Joachim Marseille, By Major Robert Tate, USAF
Hans-Joachim Marseille - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Many of the other top Luftwaffe fighter aces like Adolf Galland and Erich Hartmann regarded him as "the best". Günther Rall said of Marseille, "an excellent pilot and brilliant marksman. I think he was the best shot in the Luftwaffe". [67]
[i took this para from german library archives on marseille]
So in my view richtofen or marseille.
ground attack rudel uncontested.
Organizers boelcke,then molders or galland.In this aspect u should take several british too.Dowding one of them.
But boelcke is the 'father of fighter tactics'.
Manfred von Richthofen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hans-Joachim Marseille - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What goes against hartmann is that he scored most of his kills in the eastern front.Russian planes were outdated and their pilots very badly trained at that time due to purges and lack of organization in the red air force.
The same problem of more kills vs eastern also goes against gunther rall[third highest in history] Günther Rall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and gerhard barkhorn.[second highest]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Barkhorn
Best ever ground attack ace hans ulrich rudel.
Hans-Ulrich Rudel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Best ever tactician boelcke.Also galland is a contender,as is molders.
Oswald Boelcke - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Marseille was probably the best of ww2.he had only 160 odd kills but all of them against british or american aircraft and most over africa where the luftwaffe was heavily outnumbered.The raf was recognised by the luftwaffe as its greatest opponent.And alos unlike the others all but 4 of his victories came against fighter aircraft.
Most of the luftwaffe pilots recognized him as the greatest and probably only matched by richtofen.Though richtofen's style better matched that of hartmann.Both were hunters.Cautious and oppurtunistic.
Note that all of these were germans.That says something about them.
About marseille-
Hans-Joachim Marseille, By Major Robert Tate, USAF
Hans-Joachim Marseille - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Many of the other top Luftwaffe fighter aces like Adolf Galland and Erich Hartmann regarded him as "the best". Günther Rall said of Marseille, "an excellent pilot and brilliant marksman. I think he was the best shot in the Luftwaffe". [67]
[i took this para from german library archives on marseille]
So in my view richtofen or marseille.
ground attack rudel uncontested.
Organizers boelcke,then molders or galland.In this aspect u should take several british too.Dowding one of them.
But boelcke is the 'father of fighter tactics'.
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