Who Was The Best Fighter Pilot Ever ?

[Wingman]

4th December 1971, Marked the beginning of the greatest air battle of the day, Led by Flt LT Shams-ul-Haq PAF nick name Skamish with a equally young spirited Flg Off S Shamshad Ahmed on hid wing. 2 F-86s of NO14 SQD scrambled at 0845. Just as their wheels were locking-up the F-86s were fired upon by a flight of 4 Su-7s which were attacking the runway at that time. Shams shot down 1 Su-7 with a sidewinder, while being sheered by 14 SQD airmen watching from below. In the ensuing air battle, Shams downed another 2 more enemy Hunters while Shamshad bagged 1.

On that day 14 SQD pilots shot 9 enemy fighters for the loss of 3 F-86s.

Flg Off S Shamshad Ahmed shot another hunter on the 6th of Dec.

Sir Murad!!
Love your research...

 

[shr_bwp]

Sir Murad!!
Love your research...

Here let me give you a few facts

....snip....
1971 war 14 SQD Decca in 3 days did this.

QUOTE]


Mr. MuradK: you are clearly THE MAN!

Firstly, thank you not only for posting this record but for indulging my probably unhealthy obsession for activity out of Dacca in 1971.

Secondly, with apologies - its seems that there WERE two Shams-ul-haq's in Dacca at the same time - both Flt. Lt.s - only difference is that one had an "odd" spelling of his name and both got kills....... In a previous post from ou that I may have misread, I interpreted your answer (where you mentioned the nickname "Skamish") to mean they were one and the same!!
...snip

er.... Sorry - but as Sir Murad himself posted excerpts from what looks like the official 14 Sqn. record, there WERE two Shams-ul-Haqs and BOTH got kills - as you can see from above image. I still am amazed at such a coincidence - but Sir Murad seems to think that they were one and the same......

er..... not to be cynical or anything could it be that this official record is inaccurate? I would much rather think that than think that Sir Murad may have incorrectly recalled the events of 4th Dec. 1971. If so perhaps he can shed more light on this apparent discrepancy. Or better yet - perhaps these two "Shams"s could shed some light on this.....I wonder where they are

 

[Muradk]

This is where you are confusing me
there were 2 yes but spelled differently and both are still alive not dead.

F/L Schames-ul-Haq 14 SQD 1971
F/O Shams -ul-Haq 14 SQD 1971
the Schames retired as a Group Captain very much alive lives in Karachi
the Shams retired as a F/O in 1974 and he is alive as well lives in Pindi.

Shams and Shamshad were my students in FLS ON SABERS.

Both the hunters shot down by SQD LDR Javed Afzaal and F/L Schames-ul-Haq belonged to IAF NO 37 SQD Hunters. The pilots off these ill-fated Hunters were S/L AB Samanta and F/L SG Khonde, both pilots were killed in action.

later on I will tell you how we shot Butani saved his As- from BDs and talked to him and took his photo.

 

[Canaan]

SOLVE THE MYSTERY.......MAN!!

I can't do it by myself I will need your help

 

[SeaGull]

I can't do it by myself I will need your help

Thank you once again for your candidness and honesty, Canaan.
Yes we do have solutions, if only you would listen, even though we are the Miskins and not your Muslim brothers.

 

[Wingman]

This is where you are confusing me
there were 2 yes but spelled differently and both are still alive not dead.

F/L Schames-ul-Haq 14 SQD 1971
F/O Shams -ul-Haq 14 SQD 1971
the Schames retired as a Group Captain very much alive lives in Karachi
the Shams retired as a F/O in 1974 and he is alive as well lives in Pindi.

Shams and Shamshad were my students in FLS ON SABERS.

Both the hunters shot down by SQD LDR Javed Afzaal and F/L Schames-ul-Haq belonged to IAF NO 37 SQD Hunters. The pilots off these ill-fated Hunters were S/L AB Samanta and F/L SG Khonde, both pilots were killed in action.

later on I will tell you how we shot Butani saved his As- from BDs and talked to him and took his photo.

Questions:
1) Why F/O Shams retired as F/O having 3 enemy kills??
2) What about Shamshad is he alive?? I think He's???

 

[shr_bwp]

4th December 1971, Marked the beginning of the greatest air battle of the day, Led by Flt LT Shams-ul-Haq PAF nick name Skamish with a equally young spirited Flg Off S Shamshad Ahmed on hid wing. 2 F-86s of NO14 SQD scrambled at 0845. Just as their wheels were locking-up the F-86s were fired upon by a flight of 4 Su-7s which were attacking the runway at that time. Shams shot down 1 Su-7 with a sidewinder, while being sheered by 14 SQD airmen watching from below. In the ensuing air battle, Shams downed another 2 more enemy Hunters while Shamshad bagged 1.

On that day 14 SQD pilots shot 9 enemy fighters for the loss of 3 F-86s.

Flg Off S Shamshad Ahmed shot another hunter on the 6th of Dec.

Here let me give you a few facts

1965 war 14 SQD in 3 days did this.

[
1971 war 14 SQD Decca in 3 days did this.

[/IMG]


That is mind blowing 14 SQD at its best.
plus 14 SQD in Afghan Conflict.

This is where you are confusing me
there were 2 yes but spelled differently and both are still alive not dead.

F/L Schames-ul-Haq 14 SQD 1971
F/O Shams -ul-Haq 14 SQD 1971
the Schames retired as a Group Captain very much alive lives in Karachi
the Shams retired as a F/O in 1974 and he is alive as well lives in Pindi.

Shams and Shamshad were my students in FLS ON SABERS.

Both the hunters shot down by SQD LDR Javed Afzaal and F/L Schames-ul-Haq belonged to IAF NO 37 SQD Hunters. The pilots off these ill-fated Hunters were S/L AB Samanta and F/L SG Khonde, both pilots were killed in action.

later on I will tell you how we shot Butani saved his As- from BDs and talked to him and took his photo.

First of all for indulging me once again.

Secondly, maafi chahtaa hoo - I did not intend to confuse you. Here is where I am confused:

In your first post above it seems to me that the Shams who got three kills was a Flt. Lt. Shams ul haq nicknamed "Skamish", then
in your second post where you posted the Tail Choppers (what I presume) official record it shows that there were TWO Flt. Lt. (named Shamsul haq and Schames ul haq) the first got 3 the second got 1. The confusion here is that the Shams who got three as per your first post has a nickname that sounds eerily like the phonetic literal pronunciation of the SECOND "Shams" - I can see why the second Flt. Lt. can be nicknamed Skamish (as per your first post).


In your last post you are saying that there were two Shams' one a Flt. Lt. the other a F/O - which unfortunately adds more confusion because the official record shows both to be Flt. Lts. Does this mean that the F/O was the one who got the three? If so, the official record should be corrected, don't you think so, for the sake of accuracy?

The only thing seems certain (as per official records) is that the one named Flt. Lt. Schames ul haq only had one kill. The other 3 can be attributed to a F/O Shams or a Flt. Lt. Shams. PLEASE CONFIRM.

(Personally, I believe YOUR post that the pilot nicknamed "Skamish" -Schames ul haq got the three kills and not the other Shams - I can see why, based on this pilot's spelling, people would tease him by pronouncing his name as spelt. The official record which does not even get the rank of the other Shams right, is also probably incorrect here. Why do I believe so? because Schames' instructor MuradK , imho, describes the action on 4th December as so...there is, quite frankly, an element of appropriate pride in the way MuradK describes the action of one his students. Finally, the instructor pilot is NOT going to get the rank of the pilot who got three kills, wrong- no way. The official record can be wrong or misprint but not the memory of an instructor who taught someone to do something and that someone applied that knowledge and got three kills. NICE)

Another thing: while looking for some contacts in Edmund, Oklahoma I, conincidentally, came across this profile:

Shams Chohaan - Google Profile

Now, who IS this "Shams ul haq" who is also ex-PAF (bottom of the profile page)

All I can say is that people should stop naming their children Shams ul haq, or get the spelling right, or make sure only one ends up in the air force, or only one ends up in the same Squadron, for the love of God!!!!

PS: Can you post Bhutani's photo that was taken? Is he the same one for which you posted the news footage from 1971 (********.com)? If so, according to unofficial IAF records AA brought him down, is that correct?

PS: Shayed mujhey rozaa lug rahaa hai

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Thank you once again for your candidness and honesty, Canaan.
Yes we do have solutions, if only you would listen, even though we are the Miskins and not your Muslim brothers.

un-necessary comment, bro.

 

[shr_bwp]

Further confusion:

The following gives ALL four to someone named "Flt. Lt. Muhammad Shams-ul-Haq "Schames" " - note the use of the name Schames as this pilot's nickname - looks suspiciously like the other Schames ul haq in the official record above:

Pakistan Institute for Air Defence Studies </HEAD> Pakistan Institute for Air Defence Studies </HEAD>

http://jpgleize.club.fr/aces/indpak.htm

Pakistani Air-to-Air Victories


This painting by SM Hussaini, which is supposedly displayed at AHQ, Islamabad, is described as combat by F/O Shamsulhaq (scroll to "Battle of Tejgaon":

PAF Falcons - Picture Gallery



Someone named "Group Captain Sultan M. Hali " at:

http://www.pakdef.info/pids/paf/hali1a.html

exact quotes:


"The next pair to scramble, Flight Lieutenant Shams and Flying Officer Gul intercepted 2 Su-7s about 3 miles north of Dhaka. The Su-7s were hit but managed to pull away.

At 0940 hours, Shams and Gul scrambled again, this time to intercept two Hunters over Dhaka. Schams fired at the first Hunter and scored hits but since the aircraft did not go down, he went into a dogfight, entered into classic scissors manoeuvres till the IAF Hunter hit the ground , giving no time to the pilot to eject. Gul chased the other Hunter which managed to get away.

The greatest air battle of the day was led again by Flying Officer Shamsul Haq - with the very young but spirited Flying Officer Shamshad on his wing - when they were scrambled around midday. Just as their wheels were locking up, 2, of a flight of 4, approaching Su-7s fired their rockets at the F-86s, which were hardly 200 feet above the trees. Shams broke into them and shot down one of the nearer pair of Sukhois with a Sidewinder, cheered by the squadron airmen watching from below. Shams and Shamshad were next"

Notice the interchangeable Shams with Schams and more importantly the switch from Flt. Lt. to Flying Officer, but using the term "again" to clearly state that all three actions were carried out by the SAME officer!!!!!

Either "daal mein kuch kalaa hai" or this is just one confused story that can only be resolved by both "Shams" who are alive today and can be verified Flying Officer Gul and Flying Officer Shamshad (who by the grace of God I hope are also alive) - they can categorically state which Shams it was......

Good God, I give up !!!!!

Mr. MuradK Sahib: kindly use your contacts with the air force to stipulate that no more similar named pilots in the air force - the rule should be :change your name or get out!!!

 

[batmannow]

This is where you are confusing me
there were 2 yes but spelled differently and both are still alive not dead.

F/L Schames-ul-Haq 14 SQD 1971
F/O Shams -ul-Haq 14 SQD 1971
the Schames retired as a Group Captain very much alive lives in Karachi
the Shams retired as a F/O in 1974 and he is alive as well lives in Pindi.

Shams and Shamshad were my students in FLS ON SABERS.

Both the hunters shot down by SQD LDR Javed Afzaal and F/L Schames-ul-Haq belonged to IAF NO 37 SQD Hunters. The pilots off these ill-fated Hunters were S/L AB Samanta and F/L SG Khonde, both pilots were killed in action.

later on I will tell you how we shot Butani saved his As- from BDs and talked to him and took his photo.

hounrable, sir
just wana know the effectivness of star fighter 104 , in 71 war !
how was your experince , with those birds, what were the strong points & weak ponits of that bird, how many kills those birds got at that time.
thanks, & respects for you

 

[Muradk]

hounrable, sir
just wana know the effectivness of star fighter 104 , in 71 war !
how was your experince , with those birds, what were the strong points & weak ponits of that bird, how many kills those birds got at that time.
thanks, & respects for you

Total eight kills. 104 was a terror over risalawala 4 hunters saw 1 104 and they ran backBiggest problem I saw in it was it was to fast and the turn radius was as big as Pindi. In the heat of battle if your nose was pointing towards the enemy the guns were so powerful they would tear the fighter apart and sometimes due to speed you would pass the enemy by the time you turn around he is heading home. The phrase of the movie TOP GUN "you can run kid but you can't hide" was meant for 104s. In PAF Air Cdre (Retd) Amanullah was known as guru of Startfighter he got 3 kills if I am not wrong.

The confusion about the schames when they were awarded SJ they were both F/T at the time. He was due for his rank. And PAF is not like USAF you do something good and get promoted no, Your get your rank when the board decides and all of your course gets promoted at the same time.
Why he left Air force in 1974 in the 60s just like now we had a pilots coming from very rich families they did there job and then decided to join what there fathers were doing.
Biggest example was my student F/L Mansoor khan and Tanveer , Mansoor was Nur Khans Son and was a brilliant pilot but he decided to go to USA and study he is CEO of Agricultural bank of Pakistan, Tanveer same thing rich kid became CEO Singapore Aerospace.

 

[shr_bwp]

Thank you - therefore the matter can be put rest:

- Shamsul haq - 3 kills
- Schamesul haq - 1 kill

Both were awarded Sitara-e-Jurat.

The first one was "rich kid" and left the Air force in 1974 and is in Pindi. The other is retired in Karachi.

I hope I got it right, Mr. Muradk - please confirm.


PS: - who is the Shamsul haq in Edmund, Oklahoma - pure curiosity.....

 

[batmannow]

Total eight kills. 104 was a terror over risalawala 4 hunters saw 1 104 and they ran backBiggest problem I saw in it was it was to fast and the turn radius was as big as Pindi. In the heat of battle if your nose was pointing towards the enemy the guns were so powerful they would tear the fighter apart and sometimes due to speed you would pass the enemy by the time you turn around he is heading home. The phrase of the movie TOP GUN "you can run kid but you can't hide" was meant for 104s. In PAF Air Cdre (Retd) Amanullah was known as guru of Startfighter he got 3 kills if I am not wrong.

The confusion about the schames when they were awarded SJ they were both F/T at the time. He was due for his rank. And PAF is not like USAF you do something good and get promoted no, Your get your rank when the board decides and all of your course gets promoted at the same time.
Why he left Air force in 1974 in the 60s just like now we had a pilots coming from very rich families they did there job and then decided to join what there fathers were doing.
Biggest example was my student F/L Mansoor khan and Tanveer , Mansoor was Nur Khans Son and was a brilliant pilot but he decided to go to USA and study he is CEO of Agricultural bank of Pakistan, Tanveer same thing rich kid became CEO Singapore Aerospace.

Total eight kills. 104 was a terror over risalawala 4 hunters saw 1 104 and they ran back

what a style
dear sir, i would like to thankyou, for your quick response.
i guss, if we had 50 STARFIGHTERs , in 71 war history could be very different today.
by the how about AM anwar shamim, how about him, wht rank you xan give him, as a combat polit.
thanks

 

[Muradk]

Total eight kills. 104 was a terror over risalawala 4 hunters saw 1 104 and they ran back

what a style
dear sir, i would like to thankyou, for your quick response.
i guss, if we had 50 STARFIGHTERs , in 71 war history could be very different today.
by the how about AM anwar shamim, how about him, wht rank you xan give him, as a combat polit.
thanks

Yar to tell you the truth if we had F-16 in 71 we still have lost BD it was the movement which we had no control over it and India was acting as a fuel on fire. PAF did there best and we had more kills which is again a debate which I don't want to go into.

Shamim Sahib
Most people don't like Ex-COAS Shamim but he was a fine officer and a good pilot, He has done a lot for PAF people don't see that people only see that he served more than others and that was not his decision it was Zia how said no you will not retire Shamim sb was a great man a hard task master but gracious on the other hand very rewarding when it came to it. There were people in his time who bitched about " we have served all our lives we should be COAS" well hard luck, I know a few people who as a Pilot officers deserved to be the COAS. These were officer who everybody used to say 1 day he will become the Chief but destiny has its own way and we are all puppets.

 

[Muradk]

Thank you - therefore the matter can be put rest:

- Shamsul haq - 3 kills
- Schamesul haq - 1 kill

Both were awarded Sitara-e-Jurat.

The first one was "rich kid" and left the Air force in 1974 and is in Pindi. The other is retired in Karachi.

I hope I got it right, Mr. Muradk - please confirm.


PS: - who is the Shamsul haq in Edmund, Oklahoma - pure curiosity.....

What if he is in Oklahoma please send me his info email, Tele on my PM.