Who gets to be a Muslim in Pakistan?

[Myth_buster_1]

current vice president Hamid Ansari. Prominent Indian bureaucrats and diplomats include Abid Hussain and Asaf Ali. Zafar Saifullah was Cabinet Secretary of the Government of India from 1993 to 1994 Salman Haidar was Indian Foreign Secretary from 1995 to 1997 and Deputy Permanent Representative of India to the United Nations. Influential Muslim politicians in India include Sheikh Abdullah, Farooq Abdullah and his son Omar Abdullah (the current Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir), Mufti Mohammad Sayeed, Sikander Bakht, A R Antulay, C. H. Mohammed Koya, A.B.A. Ghani Khan Choudhury, Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi, Salman Khurshid, Saifuddin Soz, E. Ahamed, Ghulam Nabi Azad, Syed Shahnawaz Hussain and Asaduddin Owaisi.

Former president Abdul Kalam (father of India's nuclear program) etc.

President Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed is among prominent Indian freemasons so should not be considered a Muslim.

 

[Riyadh Haque]

....Two, I am pretty sure these guys are Salafists, they tend to label the whole world non Muslim besides themselves.

Yes, they are Salafi or Ahle Hadith.

....Three, you are blaming my forefather for what exactly?......

Absolutely nothing. I have no personal opinion on the matter. I was merely asking a question.

If your forefathers were sitting in Judgement of the Ahmadi and declared them heretics, why should the Salafis now not sit in Judgment of the same forefathers of yours and declare your forefathers heretics as well.

Judge not, lest you be judged. Therefore, as they have judged, let them be judged.

........ Five, you salafists are so perverted....

The Salafis may well be perverted. I have no knowledge of this either way.

However, I am not a Salafi.

Neither am I Shia, Sunni, Ibadi, Ahmadi, Babi, Bahai, Yazdi, Alawi or anything else. I am just myself.

........Six and my last point I will make to you: On this thread alone you have labeled Qadiani heretics, shias heretics, and now hanafis as heretics. ....

I have not labelled anyone anything. I was merely pointing out what people are saying out there. See if you can find any personal statement of mine that castigates anyone. I was merely introducing various viewpoints that others seem to be holding these days.

For myself, I do not consider Ahmadis, Shias, Hanafis or anyone else to be Heretics at all. If there is a single heretic anywhere in this world--- I confess that it would have to be me.

........Unlike you though I will not label you or the shias murtad as I was taught to let Allah decide who is right on the day of judgement.

As I said, I was not labelling anyone. And I thank you for not labelling me.

And I am sure the Shias are also grateful to you for not labelling them as murtad.

And I am very glad to hear that you have been "taught to let Allah decide who is right on the day of judgement."

All of this is excellent.

But then why do you (and your forefathers) label the Ahmadis as Murtad & Ghair-Muslim? Why do you (and your forefathers) not let Allah decide about the Ahmadis on Judgement Day? Why are you posting elaborate arguments with your "sayyid" credentials trying to prove that the Ahmadis are Ghair-Muslim Murtads?

Do you now see what I was actually trying to say in this thread?

Who gets to decide who is Muslim, who is Murtad, who is Ghair-Muslim?

You? Your Sayyid Ancestors of Aloo-Sabzi Sharif? Jamiati-Ulema-Islami? General Zia? Hakimullah Mehsud of Tehrik-i-Taliban? Zaid Hamid? Difah-i-Pakistan Council? The Paanwallah? Jamaat-i-Islami? Begum Nawazish Ali? Who?

And what gives them this right?

 

[Riyadh Haque]

What the hell I didn't know about this amendment.

That's not all. Here is the current version of the Passport Application form:

http://www.embassyofpakistanusa.org/forms/A form fillable.pdf

It is likely that in 2013, the Passport Office will be issuing new passport applicant forms with the following modifications:

 

[Sinnerman108]

^^
Interesting ...

We need some of the Shia members here to tell us, do they actually even believe in this ?

 

[Thor]

Most of the so called Sunnis I have spoke to genuinely don't even know what the Shias believe in, they just know that they are Shia and that's it......... I lay the blame for all this division squarely on the shoulders of the religious elite in our communities"...

 

[KingMamba]

Yes, they are Salafi or Ahle Hadith.



Absolutely nothing. I have no personal opinion on the matter. I was merely asking a question.

If your forefathers were sitting in Judgement of the Ahmadi and declared them heretics, why should the Salafis now not sit in Judgment of the same forefathers of yours and declare your forefathers heretics as well.

Judge not, lest you be judged. Therefore, as they have judged, let them be judged.




The Salafis may well be perverted. I have no knowledge of this either way.

However, I am not a Salafi.

Neither am I Shia, Sunni, Ibadi, Ahmadi, Babi, Bahai, Yazdi, Alawi or anything else. I am just myself.




I have not labelled anyone anything. I was merely pointing out what people are saying out there. See if you can find any personal statement of mine that castigates anyone. I was merely introducing various viewpoints that others seem to be holding these days.

For myself, I do not consider Ahmadis, Shias, Hanafis or anyone else to be Heretics at all. If there is a single heretic anywhere in this world--- I confess that it would have to be me.



As I said, I was not labelling anyone. And I thank you for not labelling me.

And I am sure the Shias are also grateful to you for not labelling them as murtad.

And I am very glad to hear that you have been "taught to let Allah decide who is right on the day of judgement."

All of this is excellent.

But then why do you (and your forefathers) label the Ahmadis as Murtad & Ghair-Muslim? Why do you (and your forefathers) not let Allah decide about the Ahmadis on Judgement Day? Why are you posting elaborate arguments with your "sayyid" credentials trying to prove that the Ahmadis are Ghair-Muslim Murtads?

Do you now see what I was actually trying to say in this thread?

Who gets to decide who is Muslim, who is Murtad, who is Ghair-Muslim?

You? Your Sayyid Ancestors of Aloo-Sabzi Sharif? Jamiati-Ulema-Islami? General Zia? Hakimullah Mehsud of Tehrik-i-Taliban? Zaid Hamid? Difah-i-Pakistan Council? The Paanwallah? Jamaat-i-Islami? Begum Nawazish Ali? Who?

And what gives them this right?

Qadiani are NOT Muslim. There is nothing you or anyone else can say to change that. Go back through this thread and look at the source I provided of who started the labeling in the first place. If qadiani had not started declaring everybody kuffir the rest of the Muslim community would have left them be and gone on with their lives, but no they had to try and force their perversion on the rest of the Muslims so naturally religious scholars had to evaluate their claims. After said evaluation it was decided that their leader Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a deceiver and they were labelled heretics. I did not say my forefathers labeled them murtad, I said they participated in the discussions because they were Ulema and it was an unanimous consensus throughout the world by all sunnis and shias alike that the Qadiani were kaffir. The funny thing is this is probably one of the few things they can ever agree on. Even the Qadiani act like they are another religion. When you ask what are you they say Ahmadi, they have their own tv channels, their own "mosques", marry within themselves, and don't even attend the funeral of any non Ahmadi so why exactly don't they just admit they are not Muslims? That being said they should not be persecuted against but they shouldn't go around claiming to be something they are not either.

Most of the so called Sunnis I have spoke to genuinely don't even know what the Shias believe in, they just know that they are Shia and that's it......... I lay the blame for all this division squarely on the shoulders of the religious elite in our communities"...

My uncle and cousins are Shia. I never see any difference except during Maharam they do Matam.

 

[Riyadh Haque]

Most of the so called Sunnis I have spoke to genuinely don't even know what the Shias believe in, they just know that they are Shia and that's it......... I lay the blame for all this division squarely on the shoulders of the religious elite in our communities"...

Saudi Ayatollah Shiekh Nimr Al-Nimr Dares Saudi Regime - YouTube

 

[Thor]

Qadiani are NOT Muslim. There is nothing you or anyone else can say to change that. Go back through this thread and look at the source I provided of who started the labeling in the first place. If qadiani had not started declaring everybody kuffir the rest of the Muslim community would have left them be and gone on with their lives, but no they had to try and force their perversion on the rest of the Muslims so naturally religious scholars had to evaluate their claims. After said evaluation it was decided that their leader Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a deceiver and they were labelled heretics. I did not say my forefathers labeled them murtad, I said they participated in the discussions because they were Ulema and it was an unanimous consensus throughout the world by all sunnis and shias alike that the Qadiani were kaffir. The funny thing is this is probably one of the few things they can ever agree on. Even the Qadiani act like they are another religion. When you ask what are you they say Ahmadi, they have their own tv channels, their own "mosques", marry within themselves, and don't even attend the funeral of any non Ahmadi so why exactly don't they just admit they are not Muslims? That being said they should not be persecuted against but they shouldn't go around claiming to be something they are not either.



My uncle and cousins are Shia. I never see any difference except during Maharam they do Matam.

Even though I have posted here many a times that I believe in no sect and see myself as my Lord and described as a "Muslim" only.

Ahmadis, like Bihais are absolutely not Muslim. The Bahai's decided that they were going to call themselves that and declare themselves away from Islam, hence they were left alone, but the Ahmadis have deliberately used the ignorance of unsuspecting Muslims to try and convert them to their version of Ahmadiyyat only to threaten violence against them if they then leave. To prevent Muslims from being exposed to this treachery, as a duty of the State to protect the Muslims from his, and based on what the Ahmadis had been claiming, which you have mentioned above they were declared Non-Muslim. All they need to do is go their separate ways, like the Jews, who followed Moses (AS), still believe in Abraham (AS) but called themselves Jews, Christians, who followed Jesus (AS) and believe in Moses (AS) and Abraham (AS) but they called themselves Christian. And Muslims, who follow Muhammad (PBUH) and believe in Jesus (AS), Moses(AS) and Abraham (AS) but they called themselves Muslim. Ahmadis need to do the same and call themselves Ahmadi/Qadiani/Mirzai or whatever, but do not associate with us and misguide Muslims with it.......

I have not commented on this yet as previously I have been waiting for Ahmadis on PDF to come forward again and again I will prove Ahmadiyyat own wirtings why the Muslim position is as it is.......... not wanting to entice them or see my way, but to show the truth to all PDF members here.........

 

[Riyadh Haque]

Qadiani are NOT Muslim.....................

..............................My uncle and cousins are Shia. I never see any difference except during Maharam they do Matam.

Sunni vs. Shi`a! "Qur'an-Only" Muslims, Prophet's Marriage to Aisha, Who are Salafis & Wahhabis?? - YouTube

 

[Riyadh Haque]

...............Ahmadis, like Bihais are absolutely not Muslim.................

How about:

Alevi - Wikipedia

Ismailism - Wikipedia

Nizari - Wikipedia

Alavi Bohra - Wikipedia

Hurufism - Wikipedia

Nuqtavi - Wikipedia

Yazidi - Wikipedia

Ahl-e Haqq - Wikipedia

In otherwise tolerant Malaysia, Shiites are banned

Shia Islam - Wikipedia

...............The Bahai's decided that they were going to call themselves that and declare themselves away from Islam, hence they were left alone........

Horrific Persecution of Bahá'ís - Wikipedia

Bábism - Wikipedia

Bahá'í Faith - Wikipedia

 

[KingMamba]

How about:

Alevi - Wikipedia

Ismailism - Wikipedia

Nizari - Wikipedia

Alavi Bohra - Wikipedia

Hurufism - Wikipedia

Nuqtavi - Wikipedia

Yazidi - Wikipedia

Ahl-e Haqq - Wikipedia

In otherwise tolerant Malaysia, Shiites are banned

Shia Islam - Wikipedia




Horrific Persecution of Bahá'ís - Wikipedia

Bábism - Wikipedia

Bahá'í Faith - Wikipedia

Do not use Wikipedia as your sources and expect us to even bother to answer your questions.

Sunni vs. Shi`a! "Qur'an-Only" Muslims, Prophet's Marriage to Aisha, Who are Salafis & Wahhabis?? - YouTube

Again people like these are only around to introduce fitna in Muslims. They act like they know more about the people who actually describe themselves as Shia.

Even though I have posted here many a times that I believe in no sect and see myself as my Lord and described as a "Muslim" only.

Ahmadis, like Bihais are absolutely not Muslim. The Bahai's decided that they were going to call themselves that and declare themselves away from Islam, hence they were left alone, but the Ahmadis have deliberately used the ignorance of unsuspecting Muslims to try and convert them to their version of Ahmadiyyat only to threaten violence against them if they then leave. To prevent Muslims from being exposed to this treachery, as a duty of the State to protect the Muslims from his, and based on what the Ahmadis had been claiming, which you have mentioned above they were declared Non-Muslim. All they need to do is go their separate ways, like the Jews, who followed Moses (AS), still believe in Abraham (AS) but called themselves Jews, Christians, who followed Jesus (AS) and believe in Moses (AS) and Abraham (AS) but they called themselves Christian. And Muslims, who follow Muhammad (PBUH) and believe in Jesus (AS), Moses(AS) and Abraham (AS) but they called themselves Muslim. Ahmadis need to do the same and call themselves Ahmadi/Qadiani/Mirzai or whatever, but do not associate with us and misguide Muslims with it.......

I have not commented on this yet as previously I have been waiting for Ahmadis on PDF to come forward again and again I will prove Ahmadiyyat own wirtings why the Muslim position is as it is.......... not wanting to entice them or see my way, but to show the truth to all PDF members here.........

Riyadh is obviously too lazy to do any research, it is not like what they believe is some hidden knowledge. They are pretty open about what they believe and how they feel about those who don't believe in what their "messiah" claimed.

 

[Riyadh Haque]

Well Shias have top spot in our govts same can not be said about Indian Muslims

I respect your view. Perhaps there is some truth in what you say.

However, there are other views too, as can been seen from the quotes below:

In my personal experience being a shia i remember in my early days in 90's we use to have niaz at our house and many people from our neighbourhood use to come .. i remember it from years and it was a routine , there were no invitations people knew the dates they use to pop in on the perticular day it self. Than suddenly people stopped coming , there were wall chalkings in the neighbourhood calling food cooked some real bad names calling niaz haram etc etc ... I gues it was zia sunni islamization which took effect. Even our freinds avoid eating at our homes i dont know what is it they are fed but definatly the mosque mulla has a role here

radicalization is going to destroy us all. the sectarian divide has grown and continues to grow. i would say that 20 years ago many sunnis were okay with shias. but now its to the point where they wont even eat at their house. when we first moved to canada we stayed with a shia family. and now my dad refuses to even see their faces...

 

[Riyadh Haque]

^^
Interesting ...

We need some of the Shia members here to tell us, do they actually even believe in this ?

Let us say, for the sake of argument, that our Pakistani Shia members here tell us that this is all nonsense and that they do not believe in any of the things listed....

Are they telling the truth or are they practising taqiyya? How will you know?

What is Taqiyya? Why is it practised?

If they say that the Shia "never curse the first three of the Rashidun Khalifahs", would you take their denial at face value? Or would you suspect them of again indulging in taqiyya? How will you decide?

Pakistani Shia sisters cursing Abu Bakr, Omar, Othman (1,2,3) - YouTube

 

[Riyadh Haque]

Do not use Wikipedia as your sources and expect us to even bother to answer your questions.....
.........Riyadh is obviously too lazy to do any research............

I apologize. I did some research as you recommended. And I found out that all the founders of Wikipedia are either Jewish or Christian Zionists.

Upon further enquiry, it was revealed to me that Wikipedia is actually a massive Zionist plot on a global scale to spread misinformation about our religion. It turns out that the sole purpose of Wikipedia is to attack the very foundations of Islamic Civilization and kill innocent little Muslim children.

I thank you for bringing this conspiracy to my attention.

I agree with you now that neither Wikipedia nor the Western-controlled Internet are reliable sources of information......

 

[Abdal Ali]

I apologize. I did some research as you recommended. And I found out that all the founders of Wikipedia are either Jewish or Christian Zionists.

Upon further enquiry, it was revealed to me that Wikipedia is actually a massive Zionist plot on a global scale to spread misinformation about our religion. It turns out that the sole purpose of Wikipedia is to attack the very foundations of Islamic Civilization and kill innocent little Muslim children.

I thank you for bringing this conspiracy to my attention.

I agree with you now that neither Wikipedia nor the Western-controlled Internet are reliable sources of information......

Do you realize that sarcasm is not permitted on this forum. It says so specifically in the "survival guide". I suggest you grow up and stop promoting your silly blog to pimp misguided young Pakistani girls--- no one is interesting in your rantings.

Haq's Musings: Pakistani Cover Girls