Who gets to be a Muslim in Pakistan?

[Raja.Pakistani]

I personally don't see any problem with word "kafir". You can think others whatever you wish based on your personal beliefs or understanding of islam but someone is kafir don't mean you should go and kill them. Its not just about some sunni who consider shia as kafirs. I mean if you ask the opinions of shia about salafi /deobundi/wahabi then they would have the same opinions about them. The tension between sunni and shia only get worse when shia insult those companions of prophet muhammad(PBUH) whom Sunni consider greatest. The only sunni sect which shia consider good are brealvi.

secondly there is problem of definition of Muslim. Some scholar say you are muslim if you recite kalma which is there is no God except Allah and prophet Muhammad(PBUH) is the prophet of Allah. Now question arise if someone believe in this kalma and consider prophet muhmmad(PBUH) as prophet of Allah but don't consider him(PBUH) last prophet of Allah then will he be a Muslim? so then definition of Muslim will get change that you are Muslim if you believe in Allah and believe that Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) is the last prophet of Allah then qadyani get in equation who believe in this statement but consider mirza ghulam ahmad as second coming of jesus as well as imam mahdi whom others Muslims are still waiting? Are they muslim? According to pakistani constitution they are not muslim . Again what about those peopels who insult and declare some very close friends, relatives and wives of prophet Muhammad(PBUH) as naouzbillah munafiq? Should they consider muslim ? These are the questions which would have different answers from different peoples depend on their commitment with islam

 

[Abdal Ali]

I personally don't see any problem with word "kafir". You can think others whatever you wish based on your personal beliefs or understanding of islam but someone is kafir don't mean you should go and kill them. Its not just about some sunni who consider shia as kafirs. I mean if you ask the opinions of shia about salafi /deobundi/wahabi then they would have the same opinions about them. The tension between sunni and shia only get worse when shia insult those companions of prophet muhammad(PBUH) whom Sunni consider greatest. The only sunni sect which shia consider good are brealvi.

secondly there is problem of definition of Muslim. Some scholar say you are muslim if you recite kalma which is there is no God except Allah and prophet Muhammad(PBUH) is the prophet of Allah. Now question arise if someone believe in this kalma and consider prophet muhmmad(PBUH) as prophet of Allah but don't consider him(PBUH) last prophet of Allah then will he be a Muslim? so then definition of Muslim will get change that you are Muslim if you believe in Allah and believe that Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) is the last prophet of Allah then qadyani get in equation who believe in this statement but consider mirza ghulam ahmad as second coming of jesus as well as imam mahdi whom others Muslims are still waiting? Are they muslim? According to pakistani constitution they are not muslim . Again what about those peopels who insult and declare some very close friends, relatives and wives of prophet Muhammad(PBUH) as naouzbillah munafiq? Should they consider muslim ? These are the questions which would have different answers from different peoples depend on their commitment with islam

I am not sure I understand you. According to you, apparently:

1) The Ahmadis are not Muslims
2) Because the Ahmadis claim that the prophesied Mahdi has already arrived in the person of Mirza Ahmad in 1835.
3) The Muslims, on the other hand, are the ones who are still awaiting the arrival of the Mahdi.


This confuses me. Here is why:

1) The Muslims are not a monolithic group with identical beliefs.
2) For example, they can be divided, inter alia, into Sunnis & Shias.
3) The Sunnis are still awaiting the foretold arrival of the Mahdi, whom they believe will appear in the End-Times.
4) The Shias believe that the Mahdi arrived on July 29, 869 A.D. and has since gone into occultation (Ghaybah).
5) The Shias believe that the Mahdi is already present amongst us right now, but is in a Ghaybah State.
6) Therefore, the Shias are waiting for the RE-appearance (not arrival) of the Mahdi in the person of the Ghayab Imam Muhammad Al Mahdi.

Muhammad al-Mahdi- May God Hasten His Return

After all this, I am not sure what the difference between the Shias and the Ahmadis really is. Here is why:

1) Let us assume that the Ahmadis believe that Mirza Ahmad's arrival was the foretold coming of the Mahdi.
2) What if the Ahmadis had made a really far-fetched (or outlandish) claim in 1908 that Mirza Ahmad did not really die, but had actually disappeared (occultation/Ghaybah)?
3) What if the Ahmadis were still awaiting the re-appearance (not arrival) of the Mahdi in the person of this Ghayab Mirza Ahmad?

If (1), (2) and (3) were true, then what would be the real difference in the belief structures of the Ahmadis vis-à-vis the Shias?

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bottom-Line Questions :

1) Is the belief of the Ahmadis that the Mahdi has already arrived really that different from the belief of the Shias?
2) If the Ahmadis are not Muslims, what about the Shia? What is your view on this?
3) Do their larger numbers (300 million) and older tradition (Mahdi arrived 869 AD) make the Shia more acceptable than the Ahmadis?
4) Can we conclude that the difference between a legitimate Islamic Sect and an insane Cult is really nothing more than the size of the group & the length of its existence?
5) Can an insane Cult, have attracted large number of followers over a long period of time, eventually become a legitimate religion or an acceptable & recognized religious sect?
6) If the answer to (5) is "Yes", then what about Islam itself? Is it a Religion or a Cult? What is your view?


As you can see, the Questions are many and the Answers few.

"I have a dream. Oh yes, I have a dream..." --Martin Luther King Jr.

 

[Zarvan]

I am not sure I understand you. According to you, apparently:

1) The Ahmadis are not Muslims
2) Because the Ahmadis claim that the prophesied Mahdi has already arrived in the person of Mirza Ahmad in 1835.
3) The Muslims, on the other hand, are the ones who are still awaiting the arrival of the Mahdi.


This confuses me. Here is why:

1) The Muslims are not a monolithic group with identical beliefs.
2) For example, they can be divided, inter alia, into Sunnis & Shias.
3) The Sunnis are still awaiting the foretold arrival of the Mahdi, whom they believe will appear in the End-Times.
4) The Shias believe that the Mahdi arrived on July 29, 869 A.D. and has since gone into occultation (Ghaybah).
5) The Shias believe that the Mahdi is already present amongst us right now, but is in a Ghaybah State.
6) Therefore, the Shias are waiting for the RE-appearance (not arrival) of the Mahdi in the person of the Ghayab Imam Muhammad Al Mahdi.

Muhammad al-Mahdi- May God Hasten His Return

After all this, I am not sure what the difference between the Shias and the Ahmadis really is. Here is why:

1) Let us assume that the Ahmadis believe that Mirza Ahmad's arrival was the foretold coming of the Mahdi.
2) What if the Ahmadis had made a really far-fetched (or outlandish) claim in 1908 that Mirza Ahmad did not really die, but had actually disappeared (occultation/Ghaybah)?
3) What if the Ahmadis were still awaiting the re-appearance (not arrival) of the Mahdi in the person of this Ghayab Mirza Ahmad?

If (1), (2) and (3) were true, then what would be the real difference in the belief structures of the Ahmadis vis-à-vis the Shias?

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bottom-Line Questions :

1) Is the belief of the Ahmadis that the Mahdi has already arrived really that different from the belief of the Shias?
2) If the Ahmadis are not Muslims, what about the Shia? What is your view on this?
3) Do their larger numbers (300 million) and older tradition (Mahdi arrived 869 AD) make the Shia more acceptable than the Ahmadis?
4) Can we conclude that the difference between a legitimate Islamic Sect and an insane Cult is really nothing more than the size of the group & the length of its existence?
5) Can an insane Cult, have attracted large number of followers over a long period of time, eventually become a legitimate religion or an acceptable & recognized religious sect?
6) If the answer to (5) is "Yes", then what about Islam itself? Is it a Religion or a Cult? What is your view?


As you can see, the Questions are many and the Answers few.

"I have a dream. Oh yes, I have a dream..." --Martin Luther King Jr.

Sir first of all Mirza Ahmad is not even MAHDI according to Shia Standards and HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW in his hadees have told from where Mahdi will come where will be he born and Mirza Ahmad claimed to be PROPHET and all Muslims including Shia agree that HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW is the last PROPHET and no PROPHET will come after him so first study Islam than talk Sir and read Islam from authentic books to be a Muslim you have to believe in ALLAH and that he has no partners also that He Has angels and He also sent some books last of them and valid till day of judgement is Quran and also on all the PROPHETS and also that HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW is the last PROPHET and now PROPHET will come after him but Qadyanis deny it

I personally don't see any problem with word "kafir". You can think others whatever you wish based on your personal beliefs or understanding of islam but someone is kafir don't mean you should go and kill them. Its not just about some sunni who consider shia as kafirs. I mean if you ask the opinions of shia about salafi /deobundi/wahabi then they would have the same opinions about them. The tension between sunni and shia only get worse when shia insult those companions of prophet muhammad(PBUH) whom Sunni consider greatest. The only sunni sect which shia consider good are brealvi.

secondly there is problem of definition of Muslim. Some scholar say you are muslim if you recite kalma which is there is no God except Allah and prophet Muhammad(PBUH) is the prophet of Allah. Now question arise if someone believe in this kalma and consider prophet muhmmad(PBUH) as prophet of Allah but don't consider him(PBUH) last prophet of Allah then will he be a Muslim? so then definition of Muslim will get change that you are Muslim if you believe in Allah and believe that Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) is the last prophet of Allah then qadyani get in equation who believe in this statement but consider mirza ghulam ahmad as second coming of jesus as well as imam mahdi whom others Muslims are still waiting? Are they muslim? According to pakistani constitution they are not muslim . Again what about those peopels who insult and declare some very close friends, relatives and wives of prophet Muhammad(PBUH) as naouzbillah munafiq? Should they consider muslim ? These are the questions which would have different answers from different peoples depend on their commitment with islam

Sir for your information HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW is the last PROPHET and no PROPHET will come after him is agreed by all Muslims because it is the most basic part of Islam answers are same only Qadyanis differ because they are not Muslims and by the way even Barelvis don't consider Shia good but can't call them kafirs because they say that HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW is the last PROPHET of ALLAH that is agreed and that should be the belief if some one wants to call himself Muslim

 

[Spring Onion]

Dont know what you guys have discussed so far, but why to worry about who is a Muslim and who is not? dont we need to correct our ownself and above all i will advise all of you just go and read Quran with translation and trust me you will find everything in it to lead an honest and moderate life.

our misfortune is that we dont understand Quran and run to so called scholars who according to own interests explain things

 

[Zarvan]

Dont know what you guys have discussed so far, but why to worry about who is a Muslim and who is not? dont we need to correct our ownself and above all i will advise all of you just go and read Quran with translation and trust me you will find everything in it to lead an honest and moderate life.

our misfortune is that we dont understand Quran and run to so called scholars who according to own interests explain things

Schoalrs have served Islam the most other wise these secular cartoons have tired their best to damage Islam in any way they can

 

[Spring Onion]

Schoalrs have served Islam the most other wise these secular cartoons have tired their best to damage Islam in any way they can

i used the word "so-called" scholars.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

I am not sure I understand you. According to you, apparently:

1) The Ahmadis are not Muslims
2) Because the Ahmadis claim that the prophesied Mahdi has already arrived in the person of Mirza Ahmad in 1835.
3) The Muslims, on the other hand, are the ones who are still awaiting the arrival of the Mahdi.


This confuses me. Here is why:

1) The Muslims are not a monolithic group with identical beliefs.
2) For example, they can be divided, inter alia, into Sunnis & Shias.
3) The Sunnis are still awaiting the foretold arrival of the Mahdi, whom they believe will appear in the End-Times.
4) The Shias believe that the Mahdi arrived on July 29, 869 A.D. and has since gone into occultation (Ghaybah).
5) The Shias believe that the Mahdi is already present amongst us right now, but is in a Ghaybah State.
6) Therefore, the Shias are waiting for the RE-appearance (not arrival) of the Mahdi in the person of the Ghayab Imam Muhammad Al Mahdi.

Muhammad al-Mahdi- May God Hasten His Return

After all this, I am not sure what the difference between the Shias and the Ahmadis really is. Here is why:

1) Let us assume that the Ahmadis believe that Mirza Ahmad's arrival was the foretold coming of the Mahdi.
2) What if the Ahmadis had made a really far-fetched (or outlandish) claim in 1908 that Mirza Ahmad did not really die, but had actually disappeared (occultation/Ghaybah)?
3) What if the Ahmadis were still awaiting the re-appearance (not arrival) of the Mahdi in the person of this Ghayab Mirza Ahmad?

If (1), (2) and (3) were true, then what would be the real difference in the belief structures of the Ahmadis vis-à-vis the Shias?

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bottom-Line Questions :

1) Is the belief of the Ahmadis that the Mahdi has already arrived really that different from the belief of the Shias?
2) If the Ahmadis are not Muslims, what about the Shia? What is your view on this?
3) Do their larger numbers (300 million) and older tradition (Mahdi arrived 869 AD) make the Shia more acceptable than the Ahmadis?
4) Can we conclude that the difference between a legitimate Islamic Sect and an insane Cult is really nothing more than the size of the group & the length of its existence?
5) Can an insane Cult, have attracted large number of followers over a long period of time, eventually become a legitimate religion or an acceptable & recognized religious sect?
6) If the answer to (5) is "Yes", then what about Islam itself? Is it a Religion or a Cult? What is your view?


As you can see, the Questions are many and the Answers few.

"I have a dream. Oh yes, I have a dream..." --Martin Luther King Jr.

Well you have not understand my post correctly. I was not making any personal statement about who is Muslim or who is not Muslim but i was trying to point out the confusion of Muslims about something as basic as definition of Muslim. I personally think everyone is free to call others whatever they wish depend on their(or their sect) interpretations of Islam. I mean if sunni consider shia and qadyani as kafirs then that should not be a problem. Why peopel should worry what others think of them when they think that they belong to right sect. Similarly if qadyani think that sunni are kafirs because they don't believe in claim of their so called promised messiah then i dont see any problem there. The issue is if someone is kafir don't mean you should use violence or force against them. I dont care what others call me as long as i am content with my belief. I will have issue when someone will force me or will use violence to preach their version of Islam.

I personally think that Mirza ghulam ahamd took the advantage of loopholes in different religions. He knew that Muslims and Christians are waiting for second coming of Jesus and he also knew that there are not much information about imam mahdi in Holy Quran so he declared himself imam mahdi, promised messiah as well as likeness of Krishna to attract all Hindu, Muslims and Christians. The serious issue sunni had with him was his claim of prophet hood as he claimed second coming of Jesus and we all know jesus was prophet. Another issue was he interepted many verses of Quran and said that these verses were revealed for him. The difference may not be much between shia and qadyani when it come to imam mahdi but shia just like sunni don't believe in any prophet after Muhammad(PBUH) and they also reject this claim of mirza ghulam ahamd.

Sunni and shia(twelver) also have many core differences which common people don't know much. One of them is their concept of imamat as they think imamat is superior than prophet-hood and all their twelve imams are Infallible. Another difference is total opposite point of view about first three caliphs as well as about wives of prophet(PBUH) especially hazrat aisha(R.A) and hazrat hafza(R.A) because they were daughters of hazrat abu bakr(R.A) and Hazrat umar(PBUH) and they pass live commentary and judgement on character and faith of these close companions and relatives of prophet Muhammad(PBUH) as if everything happened in front of their eyes

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Sir for your information HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW is the last PROPHET and no PROPHET will come after him is agreed by all Muslims because it is the most basic part of Islam answers are same only Qadyanis differ because they are not Muslims and by the way even Barelvis don't consider Shia good but can't call them kafirs because they say that HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW is the last PROPHET of ALLAH that is agreed and that should be the belief if some one wants to call himself Muslim

I know but when some scholar say that you are muslim when you recite kalma then they forget that nothing is there about finality of prophethood in first kalma which is "there is no God except Allah and Prophet muhammad(PBUH) is prophet of Allah"

Actually qadyani believe in finality of prophethood of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) but they call their mirza as second coming of jesus and imam mahdi whom Sunni are still waiting . The difference between sunni and qadyani is that sunni believe jesus and imam mahdi will appear in future but qadyani believe that they already been appeared in form of mirza. Now question is what is your definition of Muslim? Is someone Muslim if he believe in finality of prophethood and all others islamic tenants but have firm believe that imam mahdi already there hiding somewhere and their 12 imams are infallible, imamat is superior than prophethood ( in case of shia) ? Is he Muslim even if he has naouzbillah doubt on faith and character of first three caliphas as well as well wives if prophet muhammad(PBUH) in case of shia again. Is someone muslim if he believe in finality of prophethood but also believe that mirza is second coming of jesus as well as he is imam mahdi (in case of qadyani) . Complicated? No?

 

[Redbull]

@Raja,Pakistani

Imam Mahdi will be an Arab and can speak Arabic. He is not Punjabi.

Hazrat Isa is the son of Maryam, not the son of a Punjabi women.

So these Qadianis make claims that fall apart straight away. Although I'm all for Qadianis to live peacefully in Pakistan and don't agree with us labelling anyone Muslim and non-Muslim.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

@Raja,Pakistani

Imam Mahdi will be an Arab and can speak Arabic. He is not Punjabi.

Hazrat Isa is the son of Maryam, not the son of a Punjabi women.

I have detailed discussion with qadyani over this issue and i dont want to make this topic revol;ve around mirza or his claims so better we discuss the actual topic. I personally think actions speak louder than words and the major failure of mirza ghulam was his cliam of imam mahdi and jesus but at the same time big failure of uniting the muslims ummah. Imam mahdi will come to unite the Muslims but mirza in fact divide it further

Hazrat Isa is the son of Maryam, not the son of a Punjabi women.

well according to them hazrat isa travelled to kashmir and is buried there

Dont know what you guys have discussed so far, but why to worry about who is a Muslim and who is not? dont we need to correct our ownself and above all i will advise all of you just go and read Quran with translation and trust me you will find everything in it to lead an honest and moderate life.

You( i mean scholar) have to define what is islam and who is muslim otherwise you will get every tom, dick and harry in future claiming that he is prophet of islam and his followers are real Muslims

 

[Redbull]

well according to them hazrat isa travelled to kashmir and is buried there

Well that's another reason why his followers were silly as one of the fundamental teachings of the Quran is that he was taken upto heaven, him claiming that contradicts the authoritive text of the Islamic religion.

Anyway enjoy the topic.

 

[Hyperion]

Jan ki aman paon to kuch arz karon?

Why is every Pakistani so concerned about religion 24/7 - Doesn't anyone have anything else to discuss? For gods sake folks go out, do good deeds, be nice to others, enjoy life and beauty in the variety of life and cultures.

What I mean to say is what kind of sick pleasure does one derive from either * Declaring someone Kafir * Blasphemous * Incarcerating children * Blowing people up, all in the name of religion?

What I think is, on the day of judgement, hell will be full of you guys, while the rest of the planet will be on a fast-track ticket to heaven.

Change before all of you judgmental mo*** get judged!

 

[Zarvan]

I know but when some scholar say that you are muslim when you recite kalma then they forget that nothing is there about finality of prophethood in first kalma which is "there is no God except Allah and Prophet muhammad(PBUH) is prophet of Allah"

Actually qadyani believe in finality of prophethood of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) but they call their mirza as second coming of jesus and imam mahdi whom Sunni are still waiting . The difference between sunni and qadyani is that sunni believe jesus and imam mahdi will appear in future but qadyani believe that they already been appeared in form of mirza. Now question is what is your definition of Muslim? Is someone Muslim if he believe in finality of prophethood and all others islamic tenants but have firm believe that imam mahdi already there hiding somewhere and their 12 imams are infallible, imamat is superior than prophethood ( in case of shia) ? Is he Muslim even if he has naouzbillah doubt on faith and character of first three caliphas as well as well wives if prophet muhammad(PBUH) in case of shia again. Is someone muslim if he believe in finality of prophethood but also believe that mirza is second coming of jesus as well as he is imam mahdi (in case of qadyani) . Complicated? No?

Mr finallty of PROPHET HOOD is in the Quran Mr and Kalma and also believing that HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW is the last PROPHET will make you a Muslim this has been agreed by all Muslims first understand what Ulema says Ulema will get entertained by what you have written about them I know what Believes of Shia as long as they don't talk this **** in public and say that HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW is the last PROPHET we will have to consider them Muslims and issue of Imam Mahdi is very JESUS AS will come and every one will know who he is also when IMAM MAHDI will come whole will know it and Imam Mahdi will come in current Saudi Arabia not in South Asia

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Jan ki aman paon to kuch arz karon?

Why is every Pakistani so concerned about religion 24/7 - Doesn't anyone have anything else to discuss? For gods sake folks go out, do good deeds, be nice to others, enjoy life and beauty in the variety of life and cultures.

What I mean to say is what kind of sick pleasure does one derive from either * Declaring someone Kafir * Blasphemous * Incarcerating children * Blowing people up, all in the name of religion?

What I think is, on the day of judgement, hell will be full of you guys, while the rest of the planet will be on a fast-track ticket to heaven.

Change before all of you judgmental mo*** get judged!

Janab look at this topic "Who gets to be a Muslim in Pakistan?"

and discussion going on here is very much relevant to this topic so i don't know what you are feeling angry about Who talked about violence and blowing peoples up here ?

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Mr finallty of PROPHET HOOD is in the Quran Mr and Kalma and also believing that HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW is the last PROPHET will make you a Muslim this has been agreed by all Muslims first understand what Ulema says Ulema will get entertained by what you have written about them I know what Believes of Shia as long as they don't talk this **** in public and say that HAZRAT MUHAMMAD SAW is the last PROPHET we will have to consider them Muslims and issue of Imam Mahdi is very JESUS AS will come and every one will know who he is also when IMAM MAHDI will come whole will know it and Imam Mahdi will come in current Saudi Arabia not in South Asia

I think you did not bother to read my post. I said that Qadyani also believe in Allah and consider Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) as last prophet of Allah. Their Mirza never claimed to be new prophet of Islam but he claimed to be imam mahdi and second coming of jesus. So if Ulema define that muslim is someone who believe in ALLAH and last prophet of islam then Qadyani satisfy this requirement so what you would say about them?