Which is the real IT superpower – India or China?

[Arya Desa]

Imagine if we all got along?

 

[timetravel]

Even India IQ is 82, it doesn't matter to the west. China has IQ of 100.

I knew when Chinese would loose to the Indians, then they would use the above to sooth their hurt feelings.

See I credit the Chinese with a IQ of 200. All 1.1 billion Chinese are Einstein.

Now lets see the reality,

Until 2008 the industry had never seen a dull year but the last few years have been quite rocky. Nasscom, the industry body has indicated that an annual growth rate of 11-14% is still achievable for the industry as a whole in the coming years. However stock analysts were alarmed earlier this year when many of the top Indian IT companies failed to issue revenue forecasts for more than two quarters for the first time in their corporate lives. Despite this few people doubt the industry’s resilience and one can be confident that India will remain synonymous with IT atleast for a couple of generations.

Indian IT giants have a truly global presence. Whether it is Uruguay or Uzbekistan, Bournemouth or Brisbane, there is hardly a city in the world that has not received IT engineers from India to work on a client project.


As mentioned in a previous post, every Indian IT company has a significant footprint in China. Having failed to bag big business from Chinese SOE’s they are sustaining themselves mostly with business from their existing international clients which have presence in China. Projects from domestic Chinese clients are notable exceptions in their order books. China is perhaps the only geographical territory in the world where Indian IT companies do not serve the top players in every industry. It is very clear that the market for IT services in China is being reserved for homegrown players who are still in their infancy

 

[timetravel]

Even India IQ is 82, it doesn't matter to the west. China has IQ of 100.

I knew when Chinese would loose to the Indians, then they would use the above to sooth their hurt feelings.

See I credit the Chinese with a IQ of 200. All 1.1 billion Chinese are Einstein.

Now lets see the reality,

Until 2008 the industry had never seen a dull year but the last few years have been quite rocky. Nasscom, the industry body has indicated that an annual growth rate of 11-14% is still achievable for the industry as a whole in the coming years. However stock analysts were alarmed earlier this year when many of the top Indian IT companies failed to issue revenue forecasts for more than two quarters for the first time in their corporate lives. Despite this few people doubt the industry’s resilience and one can be confident that India will remain synonymous with IT atleast for a couple of generations.

Indian IT giants have a truly global presence. Whether it is Uruguay or Uzbekistan, Bournemouth or Brisbane, there is hardly a city in the world that has not received IT engineers from India to work on a client project.


As mentioned in a previous post, every Indian IT company has a significant footprint in China. Having failed to bag big business from Chinese SOE’s they are sustaining themselves mostly with business from their existing international clients which have presence in China. Projects from domestic Chinese clients are notable exceptions in their order books. China is perhaps the only geographical territory in the world where Indian IT companies do not serve the top players in every industry. It is very clear that the market for IT services in China is being reserved for homegrown players who are still in their infancy

So remember that the Chinese Domestic Players are INFANTS compared to Indian IT Players... and that's coming from Chinese sources itself.

 

[darkhero]

So remember that the Chinese Domestic Players are INFANTS compared to Indian IT Players... and that's coming from Chinese sources itself.

Lol, from Chinese sources. Not sure who said that, but you guys surely take other people's polite words seriously.

The only thing that India is better is software outsourcing and that's all. Can you name something else?

 

[Lux de Veritas]

I knew when Chinese would loose to the Indians, then they would use the above to sooth their hurt feelings.

See I credit the Chinese with a IQ of 200. All 1.1 billion Chinese are Einstein.

Now lets see the reality,

So remember that the Chinese Domestic Players are INFANTS compared to Indian IT Players... and that's coming from Chinese sources itself.

The only competitive advantage of Indians over all other nations is their parasitic racism and caste system. They have already arouse the hate of white man engineers. They kick out white man and ship in their entire village to USA. Then they outsource all jobs to India even if output are crappy.

USA and India's suicidal alliance is good for China. In the end, I foresee caste system in USA and USA science and technology will go shitt. China will be winner.

If you are informed, you will see white man engineers hating Indians in chat room and blogs.

Are American Engineers in Short Supply? | San Diego Reader


Are American Engineers in Short Supply?

By Don Bauder, March 9, 2011
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Back in 1950, almost 31 percent of working Americans had manufacturing jobs. Now the figure is below 10 percent. Many analysts put the blame on American companies that sent such jobs to low- and slave-wage nations during the offshoring wave that picked up momentum in the 1980s and hasn’t stopped. Controversy rages.

There is plenty of bitterness, too, about the H-1B visa program that flows the other way: well-educated foreigners come to the United States and take good jobs, largely in high tech. Congress set up the program in 1990, although its roots go as far back as 1952. Under H-1B, foreigners with at least a bachelor’s degree take jobs in a variety of fields including biotech and law. Their three-year stay can be extended to six, and longer under some circumstances. Originally, H-1B visas were to be limited to 65,000 a year; that number was extended to 195,000 for 2001–2003. In 2008, 276,000 visas were issued.

The rationale is that there is a shortage of trained Americans for such employment. Nonsense, howl American engineers. The importation of foreign workers is just one more method to keep wages down and profits up, they claim. The United States Department of Labor is supposed to make sure that foreign workers do not displace Americans or adversely affect their wages. But American tech workers say the department is failing at both tasks.

The late Nobel Prize–winning economist Milton Friedman called H-1B a corporate subsidy. “It’s corporate welfare,” says Norman Matloff, professor of computer science at the University of California Davis. The H-1B program “is fundamentally about cheap labor,” he says. Foreign workers are often paid less than their American counterparts. “Most H-1Bs are under 30, and since younger workers are cheaper than older ones in both wages and health care costs, employers use the H-1B program to avoid hiring older [those over 35 years of age] Americans,” Matloff says on his website.

San Diego–based telecom Qualcomm, the biggest local tech employer (except hospitals), is the eighth-largest American corporate user of this program, according to the publications Bloomberg Businessweek, Computerworld, and InformationWeek. The others, in order, are prominent techs, accounting firms, and consulting firms: Microsoft, IBM, Oracle, Intel, Ernst & Young, UST Global, and Deloitte Consulting.

“Qualcomm is in the forefront of lobbying in favor of H-1B,” says Matloff. “It’s in the vanguard, one of the most vociferous lobbyists for it.”

I asked Qualcomm a number of questions, such as: Is there a shortage of tech engineers, particularly software engineers, that makes H-1B necessary? What percentage of Qualcomm’s workforce comes from the H-1B program? How much does Qualcomm spend lobbying for H-1B? Are those who come to the United States underpaid and thus contributing to a decline in wages for American engineers?

After several days of cogitation, the company would only say, “Qualcomm utilizes the H-1B program as necessary to recruit and retain the best talent in the world. We support bipartisan, sensible reform of the employment-based immigration system so that U.S. employers continue to have access to the talent they need to innovate, create American jobs and grow the U.S. economy.” Qualcomm is a member of Compete America, which pushes for the H-1B program. Qualcomm sent me some of Compete America’s literature, along with arguments compiled by another advocacy group, the National Foundation for American Policy.

In an interview with Wired.com in 2008, Qualcomm chief executive Paul Jacobs estimated that 60 percent of the university graduates the company hires are born abroad.

In January, the U.S. Government Accountability Office completed a study of the H-1B program. Congress had asked the agency to see if H-1B helped corporate innovation or harmed American workers. The agency concluded that the number of H-1B workers at any given time is unknowable because of flaws in the tracking system. The agency found a small percentage of instances in which the foreign worker was being paid less than the prevailing wage. The Department of Labor gives only a cursory look at H-1B applications, the study found. And there is no legal provision for holding employers accountable when they hire foreign workers through staffing companies. Generally, the report’s findings represented classic bureaucratic waffling.

The most interesting finding was that 46.9 percent of the workers come from India and 8.9 percent from China.

The National Foundation for American Policy proclaimed that the study undermined the assertion that companies hire H-1B professionals only because they will work cheaply. Adjusted for age, the foreign workers earn the same or more than their American counterparts, according to the foundation, citing the study. Matloff, however, cites two congressional studies and academic reports showing that H-1B workers are often paid less than Americans.

Senators Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, and Dick Durbin, D-Illinois, have cosponsored a bill seeking to end alleged loopholes in the program. Citing long-running “fraud and abuse” in the H-1B program, Grassley says, “It’s time we get the program back to its original intent where employers use H-1B visas only to shore up employment in areas where there is a lack of qualified American workers.” The proposed law would tighten up enforcement in several areas.

One former Qualcomm employee says he was in a group of 30 engineers, 20 of whom were Indian nationals, mostly H-1Bs. “I don’t think I am being racist, but it was tough to fit into a group that had their own culture and social dynamic,” he says, quoting a fellow worker who called the system “modern-day indentured servitude.” Other critics have used the same language. This ex-employee says he has “a soft spot for immigration” because his parents came from foreign countries. However, “companies take advantage of this [H-1B] process to fill their workforce with people who can’t easily change jobs and work hard and keep their mouths shut, since they’re afraid of losing their jobs and status.”

Another former employee who reapplied during the recent downturn claims that 80 percent of Qualcomm engineers are foreigners brought in during the past ten years — mostly from India. He claims that he had a job interview with a manager who was an Indian national. The former employee was told he was “too senior” with too much job experience, he says, and the interview was aborted. I asked Qualcomm about that, but it was one of the many questions that went unanswered. “I grew up being antiunion and a conservative Republican, but nowadays I’m seeing global labor being exploited by large companies to such an extent that I feel that labor protections are needed,” says this engineer.

Sorrento Valley, where Qualcomm is located, has picked up the sobriquet “Little Calcutta.” That smacks of xenophobia, but at some point, it seems, the company may have to give more information on its H-1B program to American engineers.

 

[darkhero]

The only IT superpower is US. If you want a second one, that may be Japan.

If there is a ranking, I believe China should be at least in top 5. Apparently, China has very good hardware companies. Also because China probably has all software the other countries have. For example, AutoCAD forced to cut their price by 85% in China; if you don't want to pay MS Office, then you can use WPS; near all Chinese use our own mediaplayer, instant messenger and many other small software etc; also the many game companies.

My feeling is it is kind of like military hardware: we have almost everything, although we are still behind US, but we have great potential.

As for India, the only thing I know is software outsourcing. How many programs in your computer are from your own country?

 

[timetravel]

Sorry Guys Infants (Chinese) cannot compare or compete with the Masters of the Trade (Indians) in IT industry.

As the Chinese published article truthfully says,

"It is very clear that the market for IT services in China is being reserved for homegrown players who are still in their infancy "

So Chinese IT infants just cannot stand in front of Indian IT mammoths on an even playing field. It is just that the Chinese domestic market is blocked for foreign competition or else the Chinese IT companies would be blown off by Indian IT companies in China.

 

[timetravel]

Lol, from Chinese sources. Not sure who said that, but you guys surely take other people's polite words seriously.

The only thing that India is better is software outsourcing and that's all. Can you name something else?

the Chinese domestic IT industry worth 250 Billion cannot export even 50 Billion worth (NOT EVEN 1/5) of it to outside people. What a shame. It tells you the poor quality of IT industry due to which only the mainland Chinese use it as forced by their ccp Govt.

Whereas Indian IT companies with domestic market of 30 Billion are able to export 100 billion worth (MORE THEN 3 TIMES) of it to outside people.

this is because Indian IT companies are international standard providers of IT services, whereas Chinese IT companies produce sub standard products and services but forces it down the Chinese people but fails miserably to export.

 

[theniubt]

China does not have English as the official language. India does. Even though I could hardly understand most Indian's English. I usually hang up on Indian's that I can't understand and dial back, hoped that I can get through to an American call center. And sometimes I do. Sometimes, I get through to an Indian that I can understand better. But Indians must be able to discern if they can speak English or not.

Couldn't agree more. Whats worst is when they speak horribly FAST.

 

[shuttler]

Chinese do not speak good English. But Chinese also don't answer phones for Americans. I guess Chinese people know their limitations.

when your work needs a foreign language you dont know it well then it is a limitation
when your work doesnt need a foreign language you dont know it well, where is the limitation?

IQ and You , opposite words. You have little to no knowledge of India. Back off.

you have nothing to offer other than programmed cheerleaders' drivels

 

[Lux de Veritas]

India call center have horrible reputation in Singapore. I always got advice from many people to choose Chinese language options to route my call to Singapore.

Indian call center will not help you. They will charge you fee wantonly for your request. They will bluff you. When you request to speak to their supervisor, they will either hang up the phone or will put you on hold indefinitely.

Many people here in Singapore already know the reputation. The problem is companies run by the MBA type of people play lots of turf politics and transferring call center to India is a fad. So, MBA managers sub contract call center to India because this is a safe way not to get blame.

I took Singapore Airlines. I call local call center in China, Taiwan or Japan. No one give me problem. I route my call to Singapore call center. They are all ok. Only India call center sucks big time.

 

[Hellraiser007]

when your work needs a foreign language you dont know it well then it is a limitation
when your work doesnt need a foreign language you dont know it well, where is the limitation?

Well then compare the english speakers in India and China. You can learn english and compete with us, But you never did that, shows that Chinese are not problem solvers but accustomed to work like robots.

you have nothing to offer other than programmed cheerleaders' drivels

Says a Guy whose intention is to troll and offer nothing, Check out your posts they are nothing but stupid rants with no value and mostly off topic.

 

[faithfulguy]

when your work needs a foreign language you dont know it well then it is a limitation
when your work doesnt need a foreign language you dont know it well, where is the limitation?



you have nothing to offer other than programmed cheerleaders' drivels

Your response is exactly my point. And China was not created by any English speaking country so it do not need to learn English to unite the country.

the Chinese domestic IT industry worth 250 Billion cannot export even 50 Billion worth (NOT EVEN 1/5) of it to outside people. What a shame. It tells you the poor quality of IT industry due to which only the mainland Chinese use it as forced by their ccp Govt.

Whereas Indian IT companies with domestic market of 30 Billion are able to export 100 billion worth (MORE THEN 3 TIMES) of it to outside people.

this is because Indian IT companies are international standard providers of IT services, whereas Chinese IT companies produce sub standard products and services but forces it down the Chinese people but fails miserably to export.

Most of the so call IT export are temporary fill in for American software companies. There are minimal IT innovation from India itself. India provide worker, not leaders, in IT industry

 

[shuttler]

There is something wrong with the title of the thread cause China never claims herself as any sort of superpower. Only the delusional have claimed superpower this superpower that like crazy.

As for IT, it is defined by wikipedia as:

Information technology (IT) is the application of computers and telecommunications equipment to store, retrieve, transmit and manipulate data, often in the context of a business or other enterprise.[2] The term is commonly used as a synonym for computers and computer networks, but it also encompasses other information distribution technologies such as television and telephones. Several industries are associated with information technology, such as computer hardware, software, electronics, semiconductors, internet, telecom equipment, e-commerce and computer services

I dont know how many of the above that india owns which are better than China.

By definition of wikipedia, Taiwan is also one of the IT powerhouses which offers a variety of IT products alongside USA, Japan, S Korea, China, France, Germany ...

Again what does india offer other than call centers and the likes of infosys ..?

 

[Azazel]

China's software sector growth rate slows

English.news.cn 2013-06-28 14:43:33

BEIJING, June 28 (Xinhua) -- Software business revenue in China went up 24.2 percent in the first five months of the year from the same period in 2012, but the growth rate was 3 percentage points lower year on year, the Ministry of Industry and Information Technology said.

The growth rate was 1 percentage point lower than that in the first four months, according to the ministry.

Revenue topped 1.1 trillion yuan (178.54 billion U.S. dollars) in the first five months.

The sector's exports stood at 14.1 billion U.S. dollars for the five-month period, up 10.1 percent year on year.

Among the exports, the outsourcing services sector hit 3.36 billion U.S. dollars, up 16.5 percent year on year.

China's software sector growth rate slows - Xinhua | English.news.cn

Now what's India's software business revenue in the same period？

1/4 of China's maybe？

Indian IT exports was around $70 bn during during financial year 2011-12.

India clocks $69.7 billion IT exports - Hindustan Times