Which AESA radar fits better the JF-17 Block 3?

[The SC]

@messiach miss i would also like to hear from you on this one..there are many many factors determined and modified to fit another engine. Diameter and gear box location is one of them , other might be those inlet pressure stuff...lets take M88 and EJ200 on the table right now.

They both lack the thrust required by the JF-17, they were both considered in the design phase.. as can be seen, both Rafale and The EF Typhoon use them in pairs..

https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-...gine-why-not-more-powerful-NPO-Saturn-engines

 

[[--Leo--]]

From this post i get to know six major points
1-Radar AESA KLJ-7A or vixen 1000E
2- Helmet-mounted display (HMD)
3-New engine
4-Targeting pods
5- Use of composites or RAM (air frame)
6-Hardpoints

1-As we know two companies offered AESA radar for JF-17
we know that vixen 1000E which is reliable and have improved technology as they were developing this for Gripen E/F
they might have imported F-35 tech for ground base targets but as far as we have seen order has already placed to chines company KLJ-7A because ToT which is good for PAC for future programs and upgrading them and improving new features so in that case( KLJ-7A wins here )because PAC aims for fifth generation

2-Helmet-mounted display (HMD)
No doubt about that they will add this feature so no need to comment or argue on that point

3- New engine (RD-93 or WS-13A or M88-2 french engine)
we have the confirmation that RD-93 will not be use in block 3 so RD-93 is out
now WS-13A or M88-2 . WS-13A produces high thrust but not mature yet and performance is not as good like RD-93 but there are more chances that pakistan will go for WS-13A but if two-seater version JF-17B reported which is we believe to M88-2 so they will see the performance and 80% chances that they will go M88-2 (only if jf-17B have M88-2 then most likely JF-17 block 3 will have the same engine also)

4-Targeting pods (chines or turkish)
not so sure which targeting will be use pakistan buy only 17 turkish pods i am sure then will implement those pods on jf-17 whether its JF-17B or block 3 so not so sure

5- RAM coating or carbon fiber and airframe
if they go for RAM coating i believe that would be issue because you have to Re-develop or re desgin that aircraft
i have seen Su-35 Doc they didn't coat the whole aircraft with carbon fiber just on the tail fin of the aircraft is made of carbon fiber so it can be done in jf-17 it is possible but not so sure about the whole whole plane of carbon fiber

Airframe will have some modification because of new engine and new radar

6- Hardpoints(7 or 8)
Well that is childish behavior they have 7 or 8 hardpoint as long as long JF-17 performs good go mach 2 have good thrust to weight ratio i think 7 will do just fine

i have been following this from 2009 i have waited long enough for AESA radar and let me tell you guys
they took 10 years to make block 2 or JF-17B because on 2007 they flew block 1 version
so after 10 years i see no AESA radar no new engine it took so much time we would have research our own radar and system but in 2019 we will see block 3 i hope they make a aircraft with better performance

 

[WarFariX]

From this post i get to know six major points

we have the confirmation that RD-93 will not be use in block 3 so RD-93 is out
now WS-13A or M88-2 . WS-13A produces high thrust but not mature yet and performance is not as good like RD-93 but there are more chances that pakistan will go for WS-13A but if two-seater version JF-17B reported which is we believe to M88-2 so they will see the performance and 80% chances that they will go M88-2 (only if jf-17B have M88-2 then most likely JF-17 block 3 will have the same engine also)

From where did you get confirmation of new engine

 

[SQ8]

PAF is user of high quality systems. Look at the History, all electron stuff in Falcon, then Mirages, then Mirage upgrade has been top of the line. Then we take avionics from China? The cannot elaborate on the blunder but the decision itself is a blunder. This is called weak link dependency, when the serviceability of your system becomes your weak link, and you have your A/C on the flight line unserviceable because the damn electronics is not good enough for the environmental conditions of PK.

Working on a PAF tender right now, first or second page says "western systems only".. and then the last item is from China . How irony lives on in the PaF is the game of dubai accounts.

This whole crap started thanks to zai ul haq

 

[[--Leo--]]

From where did you get confirmation of new engine

in some interview [Don't have the source now] but i am so sure they will have a new engine

 

[WarFariX]

in some interview [Don't have the source now] but i am so sure they will have a new engine

well then we will see [emoji12] [emoji12]

 

[WarFariX]

Working on a PAF tender right now, first or second page says "western systems only".. and then the last item is from China . How irony lives on in the PaF is the game of dubai accounts.

This whole crap started thanks to zai ul haq

You are my favourite person of PDF just like horus , dunno why [emoji3] [emoji3] [emoji3] maybe coz you always talk what goes in my mind.

 

[messiach]

In short, for ej200 and m88-3, answer is NO.

@messiach miss i would also like to hear from you on this one..there are many many factors determined and modified to fit another engine. Diameter and gear box location is one of them , other might be those inlet pressure stuff...lets take M88 and EJ200 on the table right now.

RD-93 inlet diameter : 40.94inch
EJ200 inlet diameter : 29 inch
M88 inlet diameter : 27.5inch

Pretty much facts.

It's not so much where it "should" go ... but where it "can" go.

Elbit, an Israeli company, owns like 85% of the helmet mounted display and sight market. Unless there is a third-party distributor willing to sell the system and integrate it onto the JF-17, that entire avenue is a no-go.

PAF could theoretically ask AEL Sistema in Brazil or Ferranti in the U.K to sell us the Elbit Targo, but I have zero confidence in such a path ever coming to fruition. Maybe ask Aselsan or Denel Dynamics to buy the Elbit Targo and re-sell it to us. These are all dream world routes, so they don't mean anything in reality. Nice ideas. Zero impact.

Besides that, it's unclear if Thales and BAE would be willing to engage in acceptable terms - unlikely at best, a dead-end most likely. Otherwise, the TopOwl-F and Striker II would be good HMD/S systems to have - can't do much about unavailability though.

So what's left? I guess we'll be waiting for China, but their stuff is under development. I don't think it would be ready in time or the Block-III. I floated the idea of getting in touch with Airbus DS in South Africa since it might have the expertise, but I doubt it (Airbus DS) would be interested.

In all likelihood the PAF will have to push HMD/S and HOBS AAM pairing up to a later time. All we can do is, perhaps, accept the imperfect situation for what it is and move on.

@messiach @Oscar

 

[My-Analogous]

From this post i get to know six major points
1-Radar AESA KLJ-7A or vixen 1000E
2- Helmet-mounted display (HMD)
3-New engine
4-Targeting pods
5- Use of composites or RAM (air frame)
6-Hardpoints

1-As we know two companies offered AESA radar for JF-17
we know that vixen 1000E which is reliable and have improved technology as they were developing this for Gripen E/F
they might have imported F-35 tech for ground base targets but as far as we have seen order has already placed to chines company KLJ-7A because ToT which is good for PAC for future programs and upgrading them and improving new features so in that case( KLJ-7A wins here )because PAC aims for fifth generation We can ask same from Leonardo and if 300 plus radars which i think is healthy figure they will definitely agree on it especially when they know that we have options

2-Helmet-mounted display (HMD)
No doubt about that they will add this feature so no need to comment or argue on that point either South Africa or China

3- New engine (RD-93 or WS-13A or M88-2 french engine)
we have the confirmation that RD-93 will not be use in block 3 so RD-93 is out
now WS-13A or M88-2 . WS-13A produces high thrust but not mature yet and performance is not as good like RD-93 but there are more chances that pakistan will go for WS-13A but if two-seater version JF-17B reported which is we believe to M88-2 so they will see the performance and 80% chances that they will go M88-2 (only if jf-17B have M88-2 then most likely JF-17 block 3 will have the same engine also) Engine is RD93MA

Reasons
RD-93:
- Dry weight: 2,325 lb
- Military Thrust 11,230 lbf
- Reheat Thrust 18,285 lbf

M88-2:
- Dry weight: 1,977.55 lb
- Military Thrust 11,240 lbf
- Reheat Thrust 16,860 lbf

WS13A:
- Dry weight:
- Military Thrust 11510.22 lbf
- Reheat Thrust 19416.74 lbf

RD93MA:
- Dry weight:
- Military Thrust 17759 lbf
- Reheat Thrust 20,503 lbf
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-1...93ma-with-9300kgf-thrust.193184/#post-3157872

4-Targeting pods (chines or turkish)
not so sure which targeting will be use pakistan buy only 17 turkish pods i am sure then will implement those pods on jf-17 whether its JF-17B or block 3 so not so sure Either Chinese or Turkish

5- RAM coating or carbon fiber and airframe
if they go for RAM coating i believe that would be issue because you have to Re-develop or re desgin that aircraft
i have seen Su-35 Doc they didn't coat the whole aircraft with carbon fiber just on the tail fin of the aircraft is made of carbon fiber so it can be done in jf-17 it is possible but not so sure about the whole whole plane of carbon fiber Composite is good solution but it depend on cost and if engine cost is more then Composite then engine first and composite later. But will go for composite because it also help to reduce signature

Airframe will have some modification because of new engine and new radar (it will remain same)

6- Hardpoints(7 or 8)
Well that is childish behavior they have 7 or 8 hardpoint as long as long JF-17 performs good go mach 2 have good thrust to weight ratio i think 7 will do just fine it is eight actually but in defensive role that is more then enough

i have been following this from 2009 i have waited long enough for AESA radar and let me tell you guys
they took 10 years to make block 2 or JF-17B because on 2007 they flew block 1 version
so after 10 years i see no AESA radar no new engine it took so much time we would have research our own radar and system but in 2019 we will see block 3 i hope they make a aircraft with better performance
JF-17 Block 2—Production began on 18 December 2013 so your claim is wrong that it took us 10 years to develop block 2 infect it took us 5 years to make block 2 and same goes to block 3

Answers in bold

 

[MastanKhan]

From this post i get to know six major points
1-Radar AESA KLJ-7A or vixen 1000E
2- Helmet-mounted display (HMD)
3-New engine
4-Targeting pods
5- Use of composites or RAM (air frame)
6-Hardpoints

1-As we know two companies offered AESA radar for JF-17
we know that vixen 1000E which is reliable and have improved technology as they were developing this for Gripen E/F
they might have imported F-35 tech for ground base targets but as far as we have seen order has already placed to chines company KLJ-7A because ToT which is good for PAC for future programs and upgrading them and improving new features so in that case( KLJ-7A wins here )because PAC aims for fifth generation

2-Helmet-mounted display (HMD)
No doubt about that they will add this feature so no need to comment or argue on that point

3- New engine (RD-93 or WS-13A or M88-2 french engine)
we have the confirmation that RD-93 will not be use in block 3 so RD-93 is out
now WS-13A or M88-2 . WS-13A produces high thrust but not mature yet and performance is not as good like RD-93 but there are more chances that pakistan will go for WS-13A but if two-seater version JF-17B reported which is we believe to M88-2 so they will see the performance and 80% chances that they will go M88-2 (only if jf-17B have M88-2 then most likely JF-17 block 3 will have the same engine also)

4-Targeting pods (chines or turkish)
not so sure which targeting will be use pakistan buy only 17 turkish pods i am sure then will implement those pods on jf-17 whether its JF-17B or block 3 so not so sure

5- RAM coating or carbon fiber and airframe
if they go for RAM coating i believe that would be issue because you have to Re-develop or re desgin that aircraft
i have seen Su-35 Doc they didn't coat the whole aircraft with carbon fiber just on the tail fin of the aircraft is made of carbon fiber so it can be done in jf-17 it is possible but not so sure about the whole whole plane of carbon fiber

Airframe will have some modification because of new engine and new radar

6- Hardpoints(7 or 8)
Well that is childish behavior they have 7 or 8 hardpoint as long as long JF-17 performs good go mach 2 have good thrust to weight ratio i think 7 will do just fine

i have been following this from 2009 i have waited long enough for AESA radar and let me tell you guys
they took 10 years to make block 2 or JF-17B because on 2007 they flew block 1 version
so after 10 years i see no AESA radar no new engine it took so much time we would have research our own radar and system but in 2019 we will see block 3 i hope they make a aircraft with better performance

Hi,

Your quote---" so after 10 years i see no AESA radar no new engine it took so much time we would have research our own radar and system ".

What makes you think pakistan could come up with a working aesa---.

 

[Readerdefence]

Hell of a difference in diameter between European and western
I don't know how will that be possible with the current spec

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Just a Myth , reality Chinese systems are as good as any systems and improving massively year by year.

KLJ-7A AESA Integrates well with our Chinese Awacs , less work for us to integrate
The Italian AESA solution , is ideal for F16 C/D Modenization

The minor visual display features will improve slowly , from practical prespective the systems are already at a level of performance where they get the Job Done

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Working on a PAF tender right now, first or second page says "western systems only".. and then the last item is from China . How irony lives on in the PaF is the game of dubai accounts.

This whole crap started thanks to zai ul haq

Which tender?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

@Bilal Khan 777 Seriously, what are the chances of acquiring the Elbit Targos via Turkey or South Africa? They could theoretically package it as a part of a wider system - like the US does - and sell that as their own. This how the F-16s got JHMCS.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

@Bilal Khan 777 Seriously, what are the chances of acquiring the Elbit Targos via Turkey or South Africa? They could theoretically package it as a part of a wider system - like the US does - and sell that as their own. This how the F-16s got JHMCS.

JHMCS is FMS. All FMS kit is ITAR and ITAR is not keenly considered for JFT. Targos via Turkey is impossible. Israel doesn't give Turkey its latest kit as they are future adversaries. Turkey is trying to make their own HMDS, but its horse shit claims from ASELSAN as usual: they will end up kit assembly like most of their current products. I give them 5 years till a flying prototype is ready, then another 3 years till any specific platform qualification.