Which AESA radar fits better the JF-17 Block 3?

[Gryphon]

It's not weigh, it's about radar perormance.

I meant to say with Chinese AESA, PAF should go for PL-15 also.

 

[帅的一匹]

I meant to say with Chinese AESA, PAF should go for PL-15 also.

Of course, it will deal with India AWACS and refueling tankers.

 

[My-Analogous]

I won't give it a eye of a Indian call Chinese weapon are junk, definitely not acceptable from close friend like Pakistani. It's kind of morale de-motivation and a huge boost for our enemy.


Most Chinese members join this very forum due to iron brother relationship, don't let them down. Yeah, maybe our HMDS is not that good, but it is not junk.

We are and we will be your Iron brother for ever. Some statements from someone wouldn't hurt us. We are two country having one heart. Just chill and leave him.

 

[帅的一匹]

We are and we will be your Iron brother for ever. Some statements from someone wouldn't hurt us. We are two country having one heart. Just chill and leave him.

He might not get malign intention, I just let it go. It's an motivation to improve our weapon system, stereotype is very hard to change. Cheers!

 

[CHI RULES]

There are two things to a radar, what ever type, its gain and power and second its algorithms. I do not think Vixen in range is better than whats offered by China. Algorithms are all about 'seeing is believing' when you actually test in different scenarios. And no one can beat US technology in this but I believe Chinese are getting near.. very near.

But choosing a Chinese option can result in many side benefits which in longer run may actually be of strategical importance.. TOT I think is what guys here can easily understand but you may end with your own manufacturing fabs rather than importing ICs. ASICs, if doctored with, there is even no way to find out.. FPGAs have their own pros and cons. But having a full TOT with fabs an open up the door to completely design and manufacture your own avionics and have true independence. Such a chance had never been provided and will never be provided by a western manufacturer.

Sir I may not be a tech guy but one thing you also clearly understand that PAF shall have to face challenge of IAF upgraded Mig29s, Su30s,Mirage 2000, Rafaels and most probably Gripen latest variant with powerful AESA radar, along with latest ECM/ESM capabilities. Certainly India is also not getting source codes in near future. PAF considering limited resources should not compromise on quality. It is though not appropriate to quote radar ranges yet what I have got is that Vixen range is much better than KLJ7A. Moreover with Vixen deal we can get complete package consisting IRST,ECM and ESM up to compatible standards with that of Rafael. That's the reason it is far better for PAK to go for both Radars. Meanwhile they can continue research work with Chinese on further development of KLJ7A.

The Italian's have dealt with us in the past and they know our requirements, shall make it possible for integration of even domestic/Chinese Ammo if selected.

Do you honestly think in near future Chinese KLJ7A radar with podded IRST shall be enough to counter IAF Rafaels leaving other platforms.

In long term prospective your statement is valid but not look to be favorable in short to medium term. The other senior members should also give their views on that.
( The range and TRs of both Radars are not yet given officially anywhere if any comparison is there it should be shared with others)

@Bilal Khan 777 Sir, i think there are better ways to describes any weapon not upto the mark in your understandings instead of calling it mere junk, this is utter frustration suits only for kids not you.

That's the pure British way of explaining things bluntly may be not suited to our Eastern ethics. However many pros comparing KLJ7A with Vixen have given more value to Italian product as it is matured meanwhile KLJ7A is under development project.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

My father served in the PLA army for 30 years and my uncle served in PLA navy for 20 years. I grow up in a military family. If Chinese people know a Pakistani wantonly called Chinese weapon are junk, you know the negative effect. I will keep it here, will not tell other Chinese in Chinese forum. I feel really bad! Very bad! I'm very angry at your comment!

I didn't feel so angry like today since I join this forum. It's an open insult to your ally, your best friend.

I feel you are insane.

Usually Barahtis in this forum call Chinese weapon junk, and you are the first Pakistani doing so. For Lord sake, what are you doing?

These days are getting crazy.......

I mean if PAF think Vixen is better after the evaluation, I've got nothing to say. Do you think calling Chinese HMDS junk out of no where is somehow too arbitrary and insulting? I can't accept it.

@xuxu1457 what this guy is doing is totally beyond my recognition, I don't know what to do. Just feel bad

Continue your jibber jabber.

@Bilal Khan 777 Sir, i think there are better ways to describes any weapon not upto the mark in your understandings instead of calling it mere junk, this is utter frustration suits only for kids not you.

I am blunt and straight forward. At my age, its impossible to change.

He might not get malign intention, I just let it go. It's an motivation to improve our weapon system, stereotype is very hard to change. Cheers!

I have nothing against China. I will call what i see. You may not know me, but there are others here who already know whether I just a nobody or not. Thanks to your country for all the help, but its not for free. Neither is the PLA system ever given to Pakistan. Fan boy stuff is fine, but unlike you, I have seen myself everything that China exports to Pakistan, and all that China has learned from Pakistan in last 50 years. Your generation has no idea what is between China and Pakistan. However, learn to absorb differing opinions and critique.

 

[CriticalThought]

Sir I may not be a tech guy but one thing you also clearly understand that PAF shall have to face challenge of IAF upgraded Mig29s, Su30s,Mirage 2000, Rafaels and most probably Gripen latest variant with powerful AESA radar, along with latest ECM/ESM capabilities. Certainly India is also not getting source codes in near future. PAF considering limited resources should not compromise on quality. It is though not appropriate to quote radar ranges yet what I have got is that Vixen range is much better than KLJ7A. Moreover with Vixen deal we can get complete package consisting IRST,ECM and ESM up to compatible standards with that of Rafael. That's the reason it is far better for PAK to go for both Radars. Meanwhile they can continue research work with Chinese on further development of KLJ7A.

The Italian's have dealt with us in the past and they know our requirements, shall make it possible for integration of even domestic/Chinese Ammo if selected.

Do you honestly think in near future Chinese KLJ7A radar with podded IRST shall be enough to counter IAF Rafaels leaving other platforms.

In long term prospective your statement is valid but not look to be favorable in short to medium term. The other senior members should also give their views on that.
( The range and TRs of both Radars are not yet given officially anywhere if any comparison is there it should be shared with others)



That's the pure British way of explaining things bluntly may be not suited to our Eastern ethics. However many pros comparing KLJ7A with Vixen have given more value to Italian product as it is matured meanwhile KLJ7A is under development project.

The important thing you are missing is that with Chinese systems you can just keep making them better based on feedback. This is the most crucial element of Pak-China friendship. They listen to us and simply keep improving. With the Vixen, they will charge you exorbitantly for every upgrade. With the Chinese radar, you will be making them in-house, and the upgrades can also be implemented in-house for newer version. That is the key thing.

 

[帅的一匹]

Sir I may not be a tech guy but one thing you also clearly understand that PAF shall have to face challenge of IAF upgraded Mig29s, Su30s,Mirage 2000, Rafaels and most probably Gripen latest variant with powerful AESA radar, along with latest ECM/ESM capabilities. Certainly India is also not getting source codes in near future. PAF considering limited resources should not compromise on quality. It is though not appropriate to quote radar ranges yet what I have got is that Vixen range is much better than KLJ7A. Moreover with Vixen deal we can get complete package consisting IRST,ECM and ESM up to compatible standards with that of Rafael. That's the reason it is far better for PAK to go for both Radars. Meanwhile they can continue research work with Chinese on further development of KLJ7A.

The Italian's have dealt with us in the past and they know our requirements, shall make it possible for integration of even domestic/Chinese Ammo if selected.

Do you honestly think in near future Chinese KLJ7A radar with podded IRST shall be enough to counter IAF Rafaels leaving other platforms.

In long term prospective your statement is valid but not look to be favorable in short to medium term. The other senior members should also give their views on that.
( The range and TRs of both Radars are not yet given officially anywhere if any comparison is there it should be shared with others)



That's the pure British way of explaining things bluntly may be not suited to our Eastern ethics. However many pros comparing KLJ7A with Vixen have given more value to Italian product as it is matured meanwhile KLJ7A is under development project.

It's little bit unfair to compare JF17 against Rafale, Rafale has much bigger Radome. If Vixen1000 overwhelm KLj7A in the performance, PAF shall go for it. What is the range of Vixen1000?

I know for KLJ7A, it's 180KM.

 

[CriticalThought]

It's little bit unfair to compare JF17 against Rafale, Rafale has much bigger Radome. If Vixen1000 overwhelm KLj7A in the performance, PAF shall go for it. What is the range of Vixen1000?

Who cares where Vixen is today vs KLJ7A. What matters is where KLJ7A will be in the future because the Chinese are improving rapidly, especially when we provide feedback.

 

[帅的一匹]

The important thing you are missing is that with Chinese systems you can just keep making them better based on feedback. This is the most crucial element of Pak-China friendship. They listen to us and simply keep improving. With the Vixen, they will charge you exorbitantly for every upgrade. With the Chinese radar, you will be making them in-house, and the upgrades can also be implemented in-house for newer version. That is the key thing.

China has one of the most advanced AESA tech reserve around the world. I'm fully confident of our product.

Who cares where Vixen is today vs KLJ7A. What matters is where KLJ7A will be in the future because the Chinese are improving rapidly, especially when we provide feedback.

KLJ7A already has 180KM range, 65% increase compare with 110 KM of KLJ7.

Continue your jibber jabber.



I am blunt and straight forward. At my age, its impossible to change.



I have nothing against China. I will call what i see. You may not know me, but there are others here who already know whether I just a nobody or not. Thanks to your country for all the help, but its not for free. Neither is the PLA system ever given to Pakistan. Fan boy stuff is fine, but unlike you, I have seen myself everything that China exports to Pakistan, and all that China has learned from Pakistan in last 50 years. Your generation has no idea what is between China and Pakistan. However, learn to absorb differing opinions and critique.

You can tell it to me in a more friendly tone. Used to be junk doesn't it will be junk forever. Shut your stereotype off.

China military still sucked in the late of 20 century I never image the progress we make by now 20 years ago. Things change.

China was an empire, the world will learn how to respect China like it's used to be. We make progress everyday, we don't offer lip service like Indians.

 

[CriticalThought]

China has one of the most advanced AESA tech reserve around the world. I'm fully confident of our product.


KLJ7A already has 180KM range, 65% increase compare with 110 KM of KLJ7.

Wait for PAF's feedback Those guys always have ideas for improvement. I want to see this outperform the best in the world out there, and then some more.

 

[帅的一匹]

Continue your jibber jabber.



I am blunt and straight forward. At my age, its impossible to change.



I have nothing against China. I will call what i see. You may not know me, but there are others here who already know whether I just a nobody or not. Thanks to your country for all the help, but its not for free. Neither is the PLA system ever given to Pakistan. Fan boy stuff is fine, but unlike you, I have seen myself everything that China exports to Pakistan, and all that China has learned from Pakistan in last 50 years. Your generation has no idea what is between China and Pakistan. However, learn to absorb differing opinions and critique.

700 Chinese young men died for building up the Karakoram Highway, did they charge you a penny for open up the strategical channel?http://v.ifeng.com/news/world/201504/0106f2a1-77f8-4a38-8325-9a5f829551a6.shtml

It's not I cant take critique, it's about suddenly a close friend say the things you made are junk. 20 years ago it's junk, now it's still junk? Being objective is all I ask for.

Wait for PAF's feedback Those guys always have ideas for improvement. I want to see this outperform the best in the world out there, and then some more.

Even KSA, UAE and Iraq had started to induct Chinese conventional weapon in large quality, it says everything. You know the GCC is very picky on weapons. The best or nothing, it's our aim.

 

[araz]

Sir , thank you. I just didn't expect it coming out from a Pakistani mouth, although he may hold Britain passport. He owns me a sorry. If Chinese weapon are junk, then Pakistan army had used junk for 50 years. It's an open insult to all Chinese and Pakistan army. I won't forgive him.

How arrogant he is!

Pak-China Zindabad.

It is not a matter of being arrogant. You dont know why he calls a certain item junk. Man if only you knew who you were talking to. Suffice it to say he is EX PAF incharge of integration of Erieye AWACS. A man of his seniority checks products day in day out and knows his stuff.
Secondly the forum is an opinion forum. Even if you dont take his opinion as sound agree to disagree and move on. Idont think this has to be made a matter of national pride. His is just an opinion just like everyone else. Dont take things personally.
The Pak China friendship is symbiotic.We both bring things to the fore and marry our resources together. It is true that there have been problems with Chinese products. But there have been problems with other products as well.
The fact remains that the Chinese for NOW do not have a product that can be comparable to the WEST IN HMDs. That will not remain a problem forever as things advance. The KLJ radar was preferred over the Italian S7 radar . But previously Chinese radars have lost out to Western ones. This game of ups and downs happens and progress occurs on ones will to get better. So I would not take it so personally and move on.
Regards
A

 

[帅的一匹]

It is not a matter of being rr

PDF is an open forum, he can speak out what he want. As long as he follow his conscience. Indians will laugh to death when a Pakistani call Chinese weapon junk.

 

[ghazi768]

Sir I may not be a tech guy but one thing you also clearly understand that PAF shall have to face challenge of IAF upgraded Mig29s, Su30s,Mirage 2000, Rafaels and most probably Gripen latest variant with powerful AESA radar, along with latest ECM/ESM capabilities. Certainly India is also not getting source codes in near future. PAF considering limited resources should not compromise on quality.

It is too broad a topic to try to discuss all what IAF can throw at us and I think that it is also more about already made up minds and impressions which are hard to unravel without giving away too many details..

On a theoretical level, I hope that you understand that all fighter radars are 'fire control radars' meant to direct BVR weapons and also provide situational awareness. But other ways like AWACS are far better at providing SA and no fighter radar can match this, does not matter what its type is. In radars, other than having a far better 'refresh rate' there isn't much difference between a PESA and MESA. Both are equally prone to same type of electronic warfare. AESA provides lot of advantage in terms of resistance to EW. Also wars/campaigns are not fought with fighters from both sides one on one, sortie rates, availability rates and times to respond as well as overall picture (again SA on grand level) are more important.

Mig-29s, Su-30s, Mirage 2000 do not enjoy any 'qualitative' benefits over what we have..

Rafales and Gripens are yet not in theatre, actually it is not even know if Gripen will be selected by IAF, Rafaela will be in strength by 2021-22. A lot of water would have passed through bridges before that..

It is though not appropriate to quote radar ranges yet what I have got is that Vixen range is much better than KLJ7A. Moreover with Vixen deal we can get complete package consisting IRST,ECM and ESM up to compatible standards with that of Rafael. That's the reason it is far better for PAK to go for both Radars. Meanwhile they can continue research work with Chinese on further development of KLJ7A.

The Italian's have dealt with us in the past and they know our requirements, shall make it possible for integration of even domestic/Chinese Ammo if selected.

Do you honestly think in near future Chinese KLJ7A radar with podded IRST shall be enough to counter IAF Rafaels leaving other platforms.

Radar range is either total gain or better algorithms to reduce clutters in some modes, why do you think Vixen has got any advantage in this regards? does it provide better gain.. that is news.. better algorithms, you will know better..

I think some users are trying to turn Rafale in same type of 'love' which before M2Ks enjoyed. It is a very good strike aircraft and that is all..

radar detection/tracking/stealth is all about signal to noise ratio, on signal side other than adding patterns to try to clutter returns more, what French have done more.. and no, composites do not absorb radiation..

Noise side is where it is very strong with its EW capabilities but are you sure those will work against an AESA? whether AWACS based or fighter based?

In long term prospective your statement is valid but not look to be favorable in short to medium term. The other senior members should also give their views on that.

I never said not favourable in short or medium term, you are trying to put words in my mouth..that is not fair. Also if you are unable to understand what I mentioned for the 'long run' than frankly it is useless to discuss it further.