What would have Jinnah thought of Ajmal Kasab and gang, wonders SC

[Bang Galore]

First of all, your information is outdated. Most of the Mumbai attackers were ID'ed and their families were questioned in this regard. Kasab's own family maintains that they knew nothing about his whereabouts as he had left home some years ago and came back occasionally to hand over some cash to them.

If that was the case, why have the bodies not been claimed & why, since you insist that a Pakistani commission be allowed to speak with Indian witnesses, why wasn't there a similar offer from Pakistan for Indian officials to interview the families. Maybe we could have actually found something, since you obviously can't. Actually.... that might have been a good reason to not grant access.

As for the interview, the interview would have allowed the commission to confirm that Kasab wasn't being forced into saying what he was. If he had admitted to the charges (in exchange for life imprisonment) and identified his handlers and Hafiz Saeed as his financier, then things would have gone very differently. Pakistan made all possible efforts to resolve the issue and show that they were serious about countering cross-border terrorism. It would have been a great deal of good PR for us but the Indian authorities never granted us the chance. Like I said before, one wonders why the guy from Italy wan't captured. He wasn't being protected by Pakistan was he?

You really have not even the basic understanding of the law. In return for a life sentence instead of death, a convict would happily identify you as a mass murderer. It has zero legal sanctity. The guy from the U.S. was captured (Headley)& so was a voice on the tapes-Abu Jundal. Not particularly helpful, the Pakistani reaction.

Playing the "So much more Righteous than You" card? Please, give me a break. You guys have no right to be doing the name calling here your people just as regularly send in spies and saboteurs into our borders. Besides the TTP and BLA that carry your blessings, saboteurs from Kashmir also regularly try crossing over the LoC to Pakistan and I swear handing out candies to children is not their directive. So spare me the hypocrisy and cut the sermon. We have other things to worry about as a nation, 166 people died 4 years ago, it's sad but thousands more have died in Pakistan since and we couldn't care less who's fault it is, point is that we have our own mess to take care of and we can't spare the time to play "Court Room" with you guys when drawing out is all you aim to do.

I see...with us you want more proof...for you absence of proof is proof enough. As suggested by you, I will end my pointless "sermon" but I'm afraid "Hypocrisy" is all your realm.

 

[Hyperion]

plus I'm Intelligence.

Crap, then a definite 'no no'!

 

[Arsalan]

You really believe that? What could Kasab have said that Hafiz Saeed's lawyers not countered? If that is what you are basing your case on, i.e. some hearsay, then we can quite clearly see where Pakistan went with this line. Your commission was just doing what it was set up to do; obfuscate & pretend. The defence lawyers now want a right of cross examination, an absurd demand on a man sentenced to death. It's not like they would believe anything he said, for all I know he might have said he is Amar Singh. I see you haven't answered why Pakistan has identified not one of the terrorists apart from the one India identified? The evidence has to be found in Pakistan, in Headley's confession to the courts in the U.S., now in Abu Jundal's confession (who btw, your govt tried its damnest to prevent reaching Indian custody), not in this sorry excuse that you insist on trotting out. Any lawyer would laugh at that statement. It would have been easier to track down Kasab's family & see what they said about where their son went to & who sent him & who he spoke of. The same could have been done with the families of the other terrorists if Pakistan so desired. The answer is in the question, unfortunately. Pakistan desired no such thing.



Were Indian citizens implicated in your losses? Were their deaths planned by an organisation in India? If not, no connection. Your deaths are the results of your dogs turning rabid & going after you. Dogs that you hoped would only respond to your commands. Indians getting bitten by your dogs & you getting bitten by your own are not a moral or a legal equivalent. Your offer of help was a joke, a tragic joke played out on the bodies of the people killed in Mumbai. As I said earlier, the very fact that you seek refuge in such clearly outrageously false excuses reflects the depths that you have fallen to. Others at least have the excuse of not having the requisite intelligence to separate the wheat from the chaff; You, I'm afraid don't qualify there which makes it all the more sad.

Come On!!!
You cannot sentence someone just because YOU KNOW HE DID this!!

ever heard of judiciary system? witnesses, facts, allegation proofs, convict statements???

you seem to believe that everything about the visit of Pakistani Commission and there effort to resolve this matter was a set-up and a fraud. well, if that is the case and if Indian were so confident with all that they claimed about Kasab, one cannot understand what was the harm in allowing Pakistan Commission to have a details interrogation??
i mean if you are so confident that we just were making excuses, why did Indian being sure they are right allow so and provided us to make excuse and walk away???
you could have easily trapped us there, provided us whatever they asked for thus closing all doors of retreat for Pakistan. BUT, this would have happened if Indian Government have been absolutely true and confident in what even they have claimed so far and are sure about all the allegations that made!! THEY WERE NOT!!

Bro, it is very difficult to analyses the situation from a neutral point of view when your country in involved but at least one should try to have a better understanding of issues.

regards!

 

[vsdoc]

First of all, your information is outdated. Most of the Mumbai attackers were ID'ed and their families were questioned in this regard.

If so, that makes two of us.

Can you point out a link please?

 

[Fuego]

Jinnah was prepared as late as July 1946 to accept a United India but there were other forces at work too. Some put attribute the partition to Hindu aggression, others to muslim insecurity and some to British divide and rule policy. I believe it may have been an amalgamation of the three.

Oh comm'on. It was never any Hindu Aggression. We never thought that you guys are different. In fact we dont think it even now. May be because of the British divide and rule policy or Muslim insecurity but never because of any Hindu aggression.

Jinnah came up with the idea that we two are different people. If he wanted the United India, why would have he come up with something like 2 nation theory?? So the one that you are talking about (the July 1946 action) is nothing but a political stunt. Its even contradicting his own views.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

but dear do you really thing that all of our population, and i am taking about people on both side of the border, identify the vision of founder of nation?
wasn't Peace the main weapon and agenda of Gandhi? if yes, is it being envisioned by all of India??
You live in India, you know better about all the disturbance in Asam, Gujrat, in NE, in Kashmir, and many other places. It is just a matter of realizing!!

You talkin' about Gandhi?? If you mean him, he is just a picture on some walls, on currency notes, postage stamps, some coins in the past and we also call him 'father of the Nation'. That is all, apart from the fact that he got written about in history books.

Somewhere along the way, we discovered that we do not need just Gandhi to run everything in our country; not our industry for example.

But most of all we discovered that some of the values that he and his contemporaries propounded had got very well enunciated and enshrined in the instruments of our system e.g. the Indian Constitution.

And that is what mattered and what we needed, not Gandhi's name. A working Constitutional system, where Government did only its role, the Judiciary that did only its role, Armed Forces that did only its role, a Press that only did its role and a Political system that could be kept on a leash when needed

So we found that all that mattered more than Gandhi. Which, BTW even Gandhi was trying to tell us, just that we had to find out for ourselves.

So in a sense, we have gone beyond Gandhi. And remember him occasionally, on a few days.
BTW, Gandhi was not our only founding father. We had many others too though for (some odd reason) we chose not elevate them to fatherhood (of the Nation that is!!).
But we got things to work, with hiccups and fits and starts, but things have certainly been on the "up" since Gandhi et.al.
And we do not have any existential issues or identity riddles in the problems that we are dealing with.

Now tell me about your side, of the fence so to speak. What have you realised?

 

[vsdoc]

plus I'm Intelligence.

Scary ****. Now I will stop arguing with you.

 

[indushek]

No.

Not Jinnah. Never Jinnah. He was too decent a man, too democratic and committed to the rule of law to have held these thugs in anything but searing contempt.

Sorry but i feel that inadvertently Jinnah caused this slow decent into theocracy of Pakistan. A person who was against mixing of religion and state, had to use religion for separation. Even his first held office as Bombay's Muslim representative on the Imperial Legislative Council was from a seat reserved for Muslims to which (i mean seperate reservation of seats based on religion) he was initially opposed.

His philosophical mentor Iqbal himself a confused man (according to me) added to the fire. I mean when u mix religion and state u are bound to slip into theocracy right? wonder how they missed this point?

His heir apparent Mr.Liaqat Ali khan started the baby steps of bringing mullah brigade into politics and they changed the meaning of Pakistan at the start itself.

There is one common note among all these. They tried to use the devil of religion to further their machinations and the devil once called upon cannot be sent away that easily.

My Grandfather's family stayed back in Mumbai, their house was burnt down in 47 by our neighbours and they relocated, we were in contact with them until the 70s and last we heard from them, their house had been burnt down again in the 70s and they were relocating to Nagpur. We don't even know what happened to them.

Really sorry to hear that, hope that they are all safe.

 

[Icarus]

Oh comm'on. It was never any Hindu Aggression. We never thought that you guys are different. In fact we dont think it even now. May be because of the British divide and rule policy or Muslim insecurity but never because of any Hindu aggression.

Jinnah came up with the idea that we two are different people. If he wanted the United India, why would have he come up with something like 2 nation theory?? So the one that you are talking about (the July 1946 action) is nothing but a political stunt. Its even contradicting his own views.

Actually Sir Syed Ahmed Khan presented the Two Nation Theory. The Muslim League adopted it in 1940 and up till 1946 was prepared for a settlement within the Indian Union.

Scary ****. Now I will stop arguing with you.

I'm a COIN analyst, not field Intel.

 

[Ticker]

Don't forget, most of us are watching this from a significant psychological and political distance. I count myself among the better informed, because of my set of Pakistani friends (outside PDF). some of them are serving faujis, some are former faujis. And even I have trouble reading the tea leaves.

One reason why, in spite of all the insanity, fora like these are invaluable. Tout comprendre, tout pardoner. Except that we still have a long way to go on both sides.

There are many even here in Pakistan who are watching this from a much more distant psychological and political environment than probably you are. What depends is that where the written tea leaf has sprouted from because the smell and taste differs in different plantations.

Reading the public feel and pulse and thinking from such tea leaves is never an easy endeavour. But what is visible is certainly leading towards positive vibes.

 

[vsdoc]

I read in White Sun Red Star (birth of modern China) that at the turn of the century (1910-1920) their population was around 400 million.

What was that of undivided India around the same time?

Joe?

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I too wish that is possible but I fear that they may be dead. Even if they are alive, I am banned from entering India and have no clue as to where I can find my lost family.

I would not close the matter just like that.
There are ways and means.
Maybe later.

 

[vsdoc]

I'm a COIN analyst, not field Intel.

I'm still scared man.

As if pissing Xeric off in the past was not enough ....

 

[Icarus]

If that was the case, why have the bodies not been claimed & why, since you insist that a Pakistani commission be allowed to speak with Indian witnesses, why wasn't there a similar offer from Pakistan for Indian officials to interview the families. Maybe we could have actually found something, since you obviously can't. Actually.... that might have been a good reason to not grant access.

The Indian Commission requested no such audience, if they had I am sure we could have obliged.

You really have not even the basic understanding of the law. In return for a life sentence instead of death, a convict would happily identify you as a mass murderer. It has zero legal sanctity. The guy from the U.S. was captured (Headley)& so was a voice on the tapes-Abu Jundal. Not particularly helpful, the Pakistani reaction.

Civil Law, not really. JAG Courts I understand but the reason I made the above statement is because India is certain that Hafiz Saeed is their man, they just need the proof and Kasab will happily provide it if it saves him from the gallows.

I see...with us you want more proof...for you absence of proof is proof enough. As suggested by you, I will end my pointless "sermon" but I'm afraid "Hypocrisy" is all your realm.

Don't take my words personally, you used some tough language and I used some harsh terms. It's nothing personal, believe me. I have the greatest respect for you.

I read in White Sun Red Star (birth of modern China) that at the turn of the century (1910-1920) their population was around 400 million.

What was that of undivided India around the same time?

Joe?

This might help:
Census Of India - Census Reports 1921

 

[Bang Galore]

Bro, it is very difficult to analyses the situation from a neutral point of view when your country in involved but at least one should try to have a better understanding of issues.

Point accepted. Do not, never have claimed neutrality.

ever heard of judiciary system? witnesses, facts, allegation proofs, convict statements???

Heard all about them. It's why I'm convinced that this is just a case of obfuscation.

you seem to believe that everything about the visit of Pakistani Commission and there effort to resolve this matter was a set-up and a fraud. well, if that is the case and if Indian were so confident with all that they claimed about Kasab, one cannot understand what was the harm in allowing Pakistan Commission to have a details interrogation??
i mean if you are so confident that we just were making excuses, why did Indian being sure they are right allow so and provided us to make excuse and walk away???
you could have easily trapped us there, provided us whatever they asked for thus closing all doors of retreat for Pakistan. BUT, this would have happened if Indian Government have been absolutely true and confident in what even they have claimed so far and are sure about all the allegations that made!! THEY WERE NOT!!

It's not about Pakistan's grandstanding alone, the Indian government has to worry about the effect of that grandstanding on the people of Mumbai in particular & whether the Indian judiciary, the sole arbiter in these matters of jurisdiction would be pleased about the offer.

What allegations? According to you, he may not be the criminal & India is just fudging facts... So who according to you was the mastermind, surely you have an alternate theory of how 10 Pakistanis(atleast) trained, acquired weapons, worked with people in the U.S.(Headley) & one who somehow managed a fake-genuine Pakistani passport(Abu Jundal) and managed to arrange finances to set up & manage a operation in India? Who were the men on the tapes giving instructions? Even if Hafiz Saeed had nothing to do with it (as per your version), who did? Offer an alternate theory first. Simply saying not enough evidence for this but not bothering about what is known & I gave you the questions that needed asking, is not going to cut it.